Moral Dilemma

Ok Uno. I got it.
Investigation means that you can find information that the person you are investigating has provided. Birth and death records are public. With a few basic searches you can usually find a person's name, address, phone number,age, what they do online and how often, and so on. It is not a big deal really and I don't know of many people who would even be bothered to do so. I did not mean to offend anyone or make them think I was out stalking them. I have been stalked both in person and on the internet and it is highly disconcerting. Your age, Uno, is easy to find because you gave that information publicly yourself. I have as well. If you type in your name you might surprise yourself to see what Goggle has to say about you. Thanks for the explanation. And you are right, one must be interested enough in another to 'investigate' any information or just be a curious person with an unending quest for information.

Schipperkesue, I apologize if you feel violated with that information. I was not intending to make you uncomfortable and I am sorry.

Another dilemma of animal care is selling them. When you find an animal you have sold has ended up, through no fault of your own, to a poor home -food, water and basic care are not provided regularly, it is more devastating for me than killing them. The whole not knowing how they are being treated turns my stomach. So, though it may seem strange, I am opting to learn how to kill an animal cleanly, on my property, rather than live with the knowledge that others may buy and not keep them in proper living conditions.
It is the whole quality vs quantity thing, and a true love for the animals that drives me to perfect killing them.
Now, how weird is that????
When people ask if I sell meat, I always say no, because people don't realize growing your own costs more. At least this way they are being educated about this.
As for finding information about others, yes, the internet makes tracking people super easy now, unless the person knows how to avoid it. It amazes me what people put up for public viewing.

Shoot me now, or shoot me later. Farming is like no other endeavor, we produce a dated product. Everyone one who buys know that if we don't move it we just have to use it ourself or throw it out. The big stores, and goverment have done a wonderful job telling people that store bought is best and safe. We let this happen and now only have a few so called kooks and weirdos who will buy direct from a farmer. We do not have the resouses to spend billions to get the customer back as they are firmly on the hogwash side.
TFE I have watch over the last year as you have jumped from one bird or animal to another on a colour whim or someone said this one is better. If you were a child someone would have said stop, long ago as you are dealing with real animals lives not some whim or dream. You are the type of person that farmers can make money on, to bad there are not more. I have seem you pay on the high side to buy something, then see you try to sell it for even more, then complain when there arn't any takers. Last spring I could sell wiener pigs for $75, and had a line up, this fall I could barely get $20 or even give them away. THAT IS FARMING. The prices flucuate seasonly. If you can sell everything for more then you payed, or cost to produce all the time, you are truly special, with a horseshoe somewhere.
In my neck of the wood I have seen more people come and go after trying to farm here, the way they did somewhere else, or the way they studied, it did not work. Do you think they would listen to the folks who have been here, and tried it, or seen it tried. NO.
Perhaps a little more reseach is in order before you jump;
Advice is free and free is worthless, and you don't take advice.

Farming is the only industry that buys retail and sells wholesale!

Auntieevil, you voiced, perfectly, my own dilemma. I want my animals, after they leave here, to live to MY standard of care. I cannot ensure that they do and it drives me crazy.

WIth food animals, animals who have a limited life because they were born into the world destined to be food, it is perhaps slightly less worrying. I hope most people understand that if a food animal lives a poor life, you will eat poor food. ALso there is an end date to these animals and you hope they at least die if their lives are hell. But pleasure and work animals have it worse. Horses can live for 30 years and if they are owned by a monster, a bullet to the head would be a blessing. I HATE that Horsey Daughter buys and sells. (I hate it worse when she buys and keeps! Just quit buying!) This point that you bring up is a personal issue for me. This is why I just kill surplus roosters. After one of mine was bogugth at auction by two burly guys wearing leather and driving bikes, I knew it was NOT going to be Sunday dinner. No roosters to the auction.

Coopslave what you said is one of the few bits of wisdom I recall. That farming is the only industry where you buy retail and sell wholesale. As Lazyfarmer points out, we the people have allowed this to happen.

TFE I have watch over the last year as you have jumped from one bird or animal to another on a colour whim or someone said this one is better. If you were a child someone would have said stop, long ago as you are dealing with real animals lives not some whim or dream. You are the type of person that farmers can make money on, to bad there are not more. I have seem you pay on the high side to buy something, then see you try to sell it for even more, then complain when there arn't any takers

Interesting how what I have done is interpreted by one and possibly many...

This is just not the truth though. I have not bought animals on whims and have most of what I purchased, with the exception of the Berkshires, turkeys and Shetland sheep. I sold the Berkshire weaner pigs for 100 dollars each and a few selected for breeding for slightly more. One bred sow went for 550. The Shetland sheep all were sold for market value after doing some research and with Heda Gobbler's assistance on that. The turkeys I kept in the freezer. The chickens are all still here for the most part except those that I sold for 20 dollars each, which I believe is fair pricing according to what I see moving in this area. Since I am not prone to jumping on the advice of what some one says, I certainly would not have jumped according to popularity and whim, especially those of others. I did complain that there are no takers of already processed meat that I have for sale, not that the animals did not sell with the exception of the Shetland cross ram lambs. I believe with all my heart that the animals in my care are loved and humanely treated. Even the turkeys were, despite my distaste for them as critters. As far as being the type of person farmers can make money on, I would even question that. I would say that I may place a high value on the lives of the animals and my work raising them and price according to that, not so much to just get rid of them, which is why I still have the ram lambs. They could have been sold for food some time ago for not so much money. I have never taken an animal to an auction to get rid of it and never will.

I find myself always under attack and defending my actions and life choices on the forum. In return, it is most challenging for me to remain pleasant and calmly offer truths. That is the life of a risk taker though. When one does not follow the norms, steps out to do things differently and is vocal about it, then criticism is bound to follow. It might be possible to find animals that are better treated than mine, but those would be considered pets living in people's houses. Otherwise, my critters are very well looked after and loved and just because I do not do things like everyone else, does not make my decisions without due consideration and thought. In fact, the opposite is true. I research a great deal prior to making most decisions.

But all that is not the point of this thread. I find philosophical subjects draw many opinions and people get rather, shall we say, worked up over their opinions. Please, folks, do not let yourself become angry or even smug over a simple discussion. I wish you all could come to my farm and see my animals and how they are loved and treated.

I find I do not have much else to say regarding the original topic because once again, the discussion has been speeding off track. I am glad that some of you prefer to do your own killing and butchering, but at the same time, you must know that it is not an easy thing for others.

The Fat Ewe wrote:


I find myself always under attack and defending my actions and life choices on the forum.

No need to defend how you live your life. The problem seems to come when other people feel that you need their approval for your own personal choices. Do I agree with what you're doing? Guess what? It doesn't matter what I think.

Thanks Fowler. It does matter to me what people think though. What does not matter so much is telling me what to do. For me, it has always been best to share what they do, tell me of their mistakes (except for those who started out already perfect and knowing all) and what they learned from them. So go ahead and tell me what you think if you want to.

I was thinking while I was doing my chores today. I tried to give my pot belly pig family away a while back, boar, sow and 1 female baby. It was not that I did not value them, I just needed the room to separate the sheep for breeding because the sheep are not fed any grain and the pigs are. So I advertised just the baby for sale and today she went bye bye for 100 dollars. By placing value on her, the buyers also placed value on her.

I'm 32. Not that it matters - discussions seems to be over now - I was away working yesterday, so wasn't around to participate. Some excellent points made by some participants, though. lazyfarmer pretty much nailed it!

Sad ! Once again it seems that some people have the right to make public there veiws at no less then at the cost of another person . Everyone can do as they want ,I none the less anyone has the right to dictate what anyone should / could do ,lord help us if that happened !We all try things and untill we find what works for "" US "" we continue to do so ! I personally will listen to advise but that doesn't mean that it works for me ,no more then what I say will work for anyone else ...........as the saying goes '' If you have nothing nice to say then it is best that you don't say anything at all ""

prairie dog wrote:Sad ! Once again it seems that some people have the right to make public there veiws at no less then at the cost of another person . Everyone can do as they want ,I none the less anyone has the right to dictate what anyone should / could do ,lord help us if that happened !We all try things and untill we find what works for "" US "" we continue to do so ! I personally will listen to advise but that doesn't mean that it works for me ,no more then what I say will work for anyone else ...........as the saying goes '' If you have nothing nice to say then it is best that you don't say anything at all ""

Very true. I thought we were here to exchange ideas and viewpoints. Sometimes it means people will disagree. Maybe, when all these other pesky points of view get driven off, the few that are left can sit around agreeing with each other all day long. Boring!

Did I miss the memo? TFE was complaining earlier that when she posts, people look at it and don't respond, this was disappointing to her as she wanted others opinions. Now when people respond she takes it as a attack, NO, it is just my opinion as I see it from here. Did I miss that our opinions should agree with what she is asking? That is when it is boring, when someone posts and everyone just agrees or says how nice. I do not post to pick on anyone, but if you ask I will tell you how I really see it, not just some feel good crap. Just because someone disagrees does not mean an attack, in my opinion it means we care enough to show you something you may not see. Take it for what it is my opinion that is all, if it helps great, if not find one that does work for you, there are as many out there as there are people. Sometimes NO is the right answer.

lazyfarmer wrote:Did I miss the memo? TFE was complaining earlier that when she posts, people look at it and don't respond, this was disappointing to her as she wanted others opinions. Now when people respond she takes it as a attack, NO, it is just my opinion as I see it from here. Did I miss that our opinions should agree with what she is asking? That is when it is boring, when someone posts and everyone just agrees or says how nice. I do not post to pick on anyone, but if you ask I will tell you how I really see it, not just some feel good crap. Just because someone disagrees does not mean an attack, in my opinion it means we care enough to show you something you may not see. Take it for what it is my opinion that is all, if it helps great, if not find one that does work for you, there are as many out there as there are people. Sometimes NO is the right answer.

.............kinder words could have maybe relayed what you wanted to say without the hurt ? I found your responce rather ......rude ? You are right though that you have the right to your opinion and the right to voice it ,but when it comes back at you sounding as it did ,DON'T take offence as well ........that's all !

Fowler wrote:I thought we were here to exchange ideas and viewpoints. Sometimes it means people will disagree. Maybe, when all these other pesky points of view get driven off, the few that are left can sit around agreeing with each other all day long. Boring!

As usual Fowler, the voice of reason. Here is the way I see it. Plenty of YOU GUYS have said things that have iritated me. If it was important, I responded. If it was not important, then I did not. I am sure plenty of what I have said has irritated YOU and if you didn't like it, I would expect you to say so. Emotion, attitude and tone of voice are hard to read in written form. Some have a gift for the written word and expressing themselves well, others not so much so. All in all it comes down to choice. We choose what we write, and if we write. We chose how we respond, and if we respond. We make that choice for ourselves and only for ourselves.

Well said Prairiedog and Sue. There is disagreeing, and then there is being disagreeable and I should have made that clearer in my post.

There are posts voicing disagreement with TFE's stance without casting judgement. Then a couple pass over into admonishment that she will not use the advice anyways (which is just untrue, I have seen her use suggestions on other threads).

Besides, even if she didn't, what's it to you? Does it cause physical pain?

But that's just my opinion. I'm just saying how I see it and not some feel good crap.

I believe she irks many on this forum because she simply CHOOSES to be ignorant and in doing so, puts her animals at risk. When she posts asking for advice, what she really wants is someone to agree with what she already thinks, and then she can say she took their advice, and then if it goes wrong, she can blame their "bad advice" rather than taking responsibility for her own actions.

I don't know any animal lover who would be okay with someone who constantly puts their animals at risk through sheer ignorance.

I agree everyone has the right to their own opinions but when we start getting hard on people and directing criticism towards them I draw the line. I see TFE has deleted her account and that is just a sad thing to me, I dont thing anyone should feel bullied into others opinions. I do not thing she has put any animals in harms way from anything she has said on here. I do see that a certain person(s) do seem to go out of their way to attack her posts and hopefully that will not continue to other members of this forum, if it does I will have to remove you, sorry.

I do not patrol this forum, I read what interests me, but when someone brings a post to my attention I see it has usually gotten out of hand and I do thank those that give me a heads up on these topics. Please feel free to give opinions but please try to refrain from unfriendliness.

Very sorry to hear we have lost a member. It is possible to guide people without being rude and harsh. If you can't get your point across in a civil way best to say nothing. I seem to recall we all started somewhere with animals and we all learn as we go and the problems she has had with her animals were far less than I have seen posted here and in another forum to which I don't belong. Some of the stuff on the other forum brought tears to my eyes. Thank you Hidden for posting on this as the tone from the git go was not nice!!!

Heather

Well said, Heather. If those who truly care about the welfare of these animals in which they speak toned their posts in a different way, maybe their words would have been a bit more valuable to their intended audience. Fat ewe, sorry to see you go. I hope your journey brings you the insight and knowledge you are looking for.

There are always people that will rub us the wrong way. I try really hard to ignore them if I can, sometimes I don't. I often will just not post if I find something is really irritating me. Is it the right thing to do or being true to myself, I am not sure, but it seems to work for me at this stage. I try to concentrate more on posts of like minded people and people I enjoy communicating with. Kinda like I don't go out of my way to talk person to person with people that irritate me, so I try to use the same principle online. Most times it works but not always.

Ok I'm lost. Fat ewe left but the original post was by a guest who has been watching her posts for while? HUh?
Geri

Point taken coopslave

Rasilon wrote:Ok I'm lost. Fat ewe left but the original post was by a guest who has been watching her posts for while? HUh?
Geri

Gerry when a person deletes their profile on this forum their posts stay so the forum doesnt look strange with some posts in and some gone. Their posts just read as if a guest posted them.

Hidden River wrote:

Rasilon wrote:Ok I'm lost. Fat ewe left but
the original post was by a guest who has been watching her posts for
while? HUh?
Geri

Gerry when a person deletes their
profile on this forum their posts stay so the forum doesnt look strange
with some posts in and some gone. Their posts just read as if a guest
posted them.

Oh So she left then made the first post Ok now I unsderstand. Thank you
GEri

authenticfarm wrote:I believe she irks many on this forum because she simply CHOOSES to be ignorant and in doing so, puts her animals at risk. When she posts asking for advice, what she really wants is someone to agree with what she already thinks, and then she can say she took their advice, and then if it goes wrong, she can blame their "bad advice" rather than taking responsibility for her own actions.

I don't know any animal lover who would be okay with someone who constantly puts their animals at risk through sheer ignorance.

Agree with you.