Moral Dilemma

When I planned to farm, it was a plan to live sustainably off grid producing fruits and vegetable, harvesting eggs and making cheese from sheep and goat milk, but not to produce meat. Then it was discovered that my boar was sterile. What should I do with a 500 pound boar that is just over a year old. The local farmer came and castrated him, which he insisted upon so the meat would not have boar taint. I would not subject an animal again to such torture, for he and his father tied him in the livestock trailer and castrated him right then and there. The job was done in 5 minutes and I was disturbed greatly by this whole episode. Then the same farmer offered to pick the boar up to take him to the processor, which he did. I am eating Boris now, but I do not do so well with that idea.

The same problem arose when I raised chickens. What does one do with so many roosters? They too went to the processor. The turkeys followed, both the boys and girls this time. Yet, I do not eat much meat and have been vegetarian and could easily be so again. I have a freezer full of lamb, pork, chicken and turkey which I raised on this farm with love and compassion and am eating, though many days can go by with no meat being served here. I have had a few offers to take the meat off my hands, yet people won't buy it for supermarket prices and I refuse to just give it away.

So, I am reevaluating once again, thinking through processes more carefully. I have some ram lambs, beautiful boys with wonderful personalities. No one wants to buy these lovely boys because they are not big meaty animals. Being half Shetland, they are small and slow growing. What should be done with them then?

My goal was never to raise animals for food. They were to be a working part of the farm, to be my partners. The pigs were to be rototillers, the sheep to provide wool and milk, the goats to provide milk too, but to get the milk, babies must be born and if they are not sold, then what to do with them is a problem. That is how the last 2 lambs got into the freezer. So wool, milk, fur, fibre and eggs, plus the work of the animals - the chickens, ducks and geese to forage and keep the flies and bugs on the farm to a minimum while providing some eggs, the pigs to til and clear the land, and the horses to provide labour - this is what the Fat Ewe Farm was meant to be. That plus an apple orchard and essential oil production farm, plus a permaculture garden, and still look to the future of living off grid and be sustainable, those were the dreams.

And so, though off course for a moment in time, I am back on course once again. This spring will see 25 apple trees planted, plus at least that many hardy roses. I do not need an automatic watering system or more animal handling facilities. I need to keep only the animals that fit the plan and breed what can be sold easily. Ah, that feels so much better.

Did you ever see a movie, I am not sure what it was called, something about time travel and the hairy albinos living underground raised the humans above ground for food? I do not want to be like that. My moral dilemma is better understood now and my goals back on track.
Finally.

Have you considered using the meat to feed your dogs/cats. It will be far better than any you buy in the store, and it is often cheaper.
Dogs and cats are definitely not of the vegetarian persuasion, and will love you for it. You'd probably be able to feed much of it raw, with the exception of the pork. The BARF diet can be found online if you are interested in going this route.

There are so many ways to prepare meat and most of us do only what is easiest and that is why we end up with more then we can manage .Have you tried making some into sausages ? they sell very well and there are so many recipies that are out there that use all sorts of meat in the proccess .I hunt and as such I cut up the meat into what I think I want and go from there .Now most of what I shoot is fairly large in size thus there is a lot of meat and besides giveing some of it away I freeze what I want to keep .There is where the problem starts ,I have to constantly remind myself that it's there and to use it ! Now my brother in Calgary had the same issue and what he did one year is have the whole deer proccessed into sausage and it was gne within a month or so? Those small pepperets (wrong spelling I'm sure ) were the most popular and that is what he had made the most of ,he took them to work ,they were snacks for the kids when there friends came over ,school snacks etc ,so I think that if we use and try different things with the meat that we have it will be used more and thus what we have we do truly need ,or share as it were ...........my thoughts

Boil up those old roosters to make and can (or freeze) soup broth. You can use the broth as a base for so many yummy soups and if you dont want to eat the meat you can grind both the meat and bone and feed it back to your poultry. After many hours of boiling the bones grind up very nicely.

This is my first year of Hobby Farming! I have had to re evaluate my situation a few time too So much to figure out! It seems to be harder to buy and sell this far north. Perhaps not as many people coming and going as central AB? Or maybe it is that we have not established ourselves yet being freshly started farms and new members of our communities?

Have you thought of sending extra's to auction? I have never done this and can't say if it is a good idea or not? You may not get top dollar but it could be better then giving things away or having it wasted? Also you would be able to send all extra stock to one place at the same time instead of trying to transport one here and one there. Travel costs can eat up profit quickly. Then you are not feeding them all winter either. It could be a one time option to get everything straitened out or just a way to get rid of any extra's that didn't sell through the year.

Some of my first time purchases did not go over well either. After getting them I realized there was not a large market for that certain breed or variety of animal.... back to the drawing board

Essential Oil Production!!! Awesome!! I use quite a few!

The Fat Ewe wrote:This spring will see 25 apple trees planted, plus at least that many hardy roses.

I would advise AGAINST planting that many apple trees, unless you're planning on going into the apple or u-pick business. We have three mature trees here that produce well, plus two that don't produce as well, plus a large crab apple tree, and even with a family of four, making +/- 100 pies to share with friends, canning apple sauce and apple jam, and freezing sliced/diced apples to use in baking etc., there's no way we can use all the apples. I rarely ever touch the crab apple supply as I just don't need to, so I leave those for the birds and squirrels.

25 trees is WAY too many. You'd be better off planting some Saskatoons, Evans cherries etc. in some of that space.

feeding cats and dogs requires killing the animals, something I simply cannot do. Processing for animal feeding is expensive and requires transport. Transport is a whole other problem. I do not want to tag or register the animals because I do not believe the government has any business tracking my food production. So taking the animals to auction requires id tags, for sheep they have to be tagged with traceable microchipped tags, something I have refused to participate in, plus I would have to buy a trailer and put a trailer hitch on my truck. That money seems better spent buying nursery stock for an orchard (to me). As far as sausage goes, I have looked into that too, but here I have not found a processor who will NOT use nitrites in the processing for sausage, ham or bacon. I have some raw product in the freezer which I plan to smoke in the summer if I can find an old fridge that is metal inside. The whole farm was to be an organic permaculture farm, which is what I am working towards. I really like smoked cheese and smoked peppers, so it would not have to be for meat.
The only caveat is that I run the bed and breakfast and am licensed to serve meals. Although I have served vegetarian and vegan meals, the majority of the population are meat eaters. The meat has to be government inspected as does any dairy or eggs. Eggs can be sold at the farm gate though, which is weird. I do not know about cheese yet.
I work pretty hard already, doing regular chores daily and adding one other, such as hoof trimming or adding bedding materials. This equals about 4 hours a day outside in winter, so far.

I continue to look for alternative feed for the animals since I am not in favour of genetically modified foods and commercial grain products such as layer mash, contain a high percentage of GM grains. Recently I spoke to a farmer who told me of boiled mash. In the ancient days in winter, they would boil barley and potatoes, maybe meat scraps and feed the dogs and chickens that. Maybe it is not a complete feed, but the animals lived and seemed to do well. They also did not have any heat for the chickens in the coops. I am looking for those kinds of chickens and that is yet another reason I love the waterfowl...they are so hardy.

Thank you for your thoughts on this. Opinions do help to get the mind going.

one more thing...raw pork and venison for the dogs...
The dogs help themselves to deer all the time, bringing home some of the carcass. They eat raw. I know they can acquire a parasitic infection, particularly from the blood and brain, but it is impossible to stop this feeding themselves. The vet has assured me that raw pork is not longer an issue for the dogs , so when I can offer that to them, I do .

The goal of the apple orchard is to produce organic cider. In time there will be other trees planted including sour cherries, sea buckthorn, saskatoons, etc. The farm already has sea buckthorn and saskatoons. Sea buckthorn oil and essential oil, as well as the juice is highly sought after by the organic consumers and the oils by the cosmetics trade. I have been researching the apple varieties and have a date with the apple orchard winery nearer to Two Hills to talk about varieties that produce well in this area.

If you eliminate milk from your produce you can eliminate most of your unwanted young. Only keep single genders of pigs, sheep, chicken and horses, and you'll have your wool, rototillers, eggs and draft animals without any unwanted offspring.
It is an option. You just have to buy replacements as needed.

Trade is another option. Your meat animals for their.....? Labour? Bales? ???

auntieevil wrote:If you eliminate milk from your produce you can eliminate most of your unwanted young. Only keep single genders of pigs, sheep, chicken and horses, and you'll have your wool, rototillers, eggs and draft animals without any unwanted offspring.
It is an option. You just have to buy replacements as needed.

Yup! Either that or simply put, don't have animals at all.

The Fat Ewe wrote:The goal of the apple orchard is to produce organic cider. In time there will be other trees planted including sour cherries, sea buckthorn, saskatoons, etc. The farm already has sea buckthorn and saskatoons. Sea buckthorn oil and essential oil, as well as the juice is highly sought after by the organic consumers and the oils by the cosmetics trade. I have been researching the apple varieties and have a date with the apple orchard winery nearer to Two Hills to talk about varieties that produce well in this area.

Have you employed the services of an agricultural business consultant, a lawyer, an insurance agent, a marketing company and a Certified Professional Accountant? (NOT those hacks in Elk Point. A REAL accountant.) If you run a business, ANY business, you need to have a great, PROFESSIONAL team backing you up and covering your butt. An agri-business consultant can look at your initial plan and make suggestions. A lawyer will get you incorporated and protected in case of legal action against you/your company as well as assist you in creating contracts with distributors etc. An insurance agent will provide you with premises and liability insurance in case the worst happens. A marketing company will help you decide where and when to market your product, as well as assist you in brand development, labelling, websites, social media, etc. A GOOD CPA will take a look at your ideas and tell you either "yes, this can be done, and here's what you need to do to make it happen." or "No freaking way is this going to work."

You'll also want to speak with the CFIA regarding their regulations before setting up a premises to make and package your edible products. That's probably numero uno on the list, as they may also have regulations regarding where your orchard can be located in relation to your livestock, as well as runoff issues, and even something as simple as where the water is going to come from to get your apple trees established.

Will you require a permit from your county before planting your commercial orchard?

How many years will your trees need before they are mature enough to produce enough apples to make your first run of cider? 5? 10? 15?

It seems to me that while your ideas are great, the actual viability (in terms of breaking even or making a profit) and follow-through is lacking. Your cider and essential oil business, if done PROPERLY, would REQUIRE at least a six figure investment to set up the infrastructure, establish your PROFESSIONAL team, putting out a single test batch of cider, plus the costs of establishing a brand and trying to break into the retail market. That market would have to be provincial and/or national, as the Elk Point area isn't known for its progressive attitude towards organic products, and the population is much more Lucky Lager than imported Guiness. You'll also need to have enough money in the bank to be able to carry this business, and cover your own personal expenses, for at least the first five years, as you can't reasonably expect any new business to support you before that time.

I CANNOT stress enough the importance of a THOROUGHLY RESEARCHED plan before so much as putting a spade to the dirt towards this proposed endeavor.

(I know most of my advice is going to be ignored, but hey, maybe it will help someone else.)

Some good advice Authenticfarm if you sift though your comments but a Rather harsh last comment

Heather

Authentic farm, you sound like my MBÅ prof! I did not agree with what is usual and found many examples that had none of those measures in place and became successful operations. Harley Davidson comes to mind as one such company. I am not ignoring your advice and thank you for taking the time to voice your opinion.
We just differ greatly in our practices. I suppose being a professional yourself, you have all of those professionals on your team and if that works for you, great!

This farm is my 4th business and I do none of the above. For some reason, the businesses have become successful despite that. I see the farm as such a venture. So far I run the bed and breakfast and the farm with ease and very little help.

I did look into the entrepreneurship avenue of the Alberta Growing Forward program, though from what I can tell, the program appears to be a make work project for many consultants. I feel I can do what they can. It may take more hours of research and planning, but it will be totally what I want. The CFIA is the last agency I would like to have involved in my farm operation.

and just for the record, things can happen positively without the inputs you have outlined. When I wanted to be a florist, I opened a flower shop and learned on my feet. The same for interior design and in that business I ended up doing design/build work and completed projects such as the computer headquarters for Discovery Software, the renovation of the Fraser Valley Veterinary Hospital, and the Abbotsford Dental Clinic as well as high end residences and shoestring decor for kids just starting out. That was some time ago, but again, I had none of the measures in place you suggest and my business was definitely successful, so much so that I had the centerfold pages of the local magazine called Easy Living as my own column. Anyhow, I am not writing this to toot my horn or argue with anyone. I was just thinking aloud about reshaping the direction, or rather bringing the goals back on track that were originally set out for the farm.

ToyBarons, I love animals. I would like them to be part of the farm. I may not need the numbers I have, but so far, it has been a learning mode for me. Today I picked up my previously injured goose and told her how beautiful she was and how pleased I am that she is healing nicely. We all have preferences for certain species of animals, I guess, and I am learning mine. I do not have to breed them though, you are right. Schipperkesue, I have offered different trades, but got no takers here. Perhaps that takes time and definitely is an avenue to pursue.
Thank you everyone.

The Fat Ewe wrote:The CFIA is the last agency I would like to have involved in my farm operation.

If you intend to produce food to sell, you won't have a choice. They also have organic regulations you will need to conform to before you can label and sell your product as organic. Here's a link for you: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

If you can't afford or don't believe in the other professionals, at the very least, get a CPA involved in the planning process to ensure your idea is financially viable. After all, if you're just breaking even, you're wasting your time; if you're losing money, then you might as well be running a charity.

I still use my accounting firm in BC, but have recently located an accountant who is not practicing, but raising a family instead for now and she will do my books, not the planning. I have worked as a book keeper, but I detest that sort of job so find it best to leave it to those who love it. That way I can do my unorthodox things without evidence of the "right " steps and processes. If everyone who started a business followed a business model and was ensured to make money we would have few entrepreneurs. Anita Roddick of the Body Shop comes to mind...absolutely no plans, no consultants, nada, just mixing stuff in her house and selling it to friends and badaboom! More out of the box thinkers are good. Again, I refer to my MBA prof who once started to tell me I had to think in the box, to follow rules and prescribed formulas that were tried and true, but then he stopped himself and said, "Come to think of it, I don't think you have ever been in the box" .

Authentic farm, we do not see eye to eye, but that does not mean I cannot respect your way of managing your life and the desire you have to help others be more like you.

And how many farmers are making money?

To my knowledge the CFIA does not have to set foot on my establishment if I sell my produce at the farm gate under the farmer's market act.

The Fat Ewe wrote:And how many farmers are making money?

To my knowledge the CFIA does not have to set foot on my establishment if I sell my produce at the farm gate under the farmer's market act.

The ones who are doing it right are making money. A lot of the smaller farms in this area exist solely as a tax write off for those who make too much money in the oilfield. I know more of the farming-for-a-loss-on-purpose type of farmers than I do the this-is-the-only-way-I-make-a-living type of farmer.

Selling at the farm gate is not going to work for you long-term, not with 25 trees full of apples to turn into cider. Also, you don't live in an area with a large enough population, or enough tourism traffic, for that to be viable. Subtract out the (large) percentage of people who only want to buy their CFIA-approved and inspected cider off the shelf, in a bottle with a pretty label, at the grocery store, at Christmas time, and you're looking at a TEENY TINY ITTY BITTY market share.

Maybe re-think that whole 25 trees thing again, eh?

Authentic farm, we do not see eye to eye, but that does not mean I cannot respect your way of managing your life and the desire you have to help others be more like you.

Yep, I pretty much just want everyone to make sound decisions that are well-researched and meticulously planned, with impeccable follow through. I want everyone to be successful. I believe that if it is worth doing, it's worth doing right, and I also believe in doing it right the first time.

Do you think...she says sneakily...that doing things with money as the driving force and doing things just because you want to, is an age related difference?

I'm going to venture that AuthenticFarm is under 40. And I'm going to hazard a guess that The Fat Ewe is around 48 ...and here in the difference lies.

At a time in my life everything was done with the bottom line in mind. If it's not profitable, "you may as well run a charity." Well, live enough years, get knocked on your a$$ enough times, watch people your own age sicken and die, watch you Grandparents and then own parents die, watch your kids grow up and leave, become aware of the passage of time, the shortness of your own life and you wake up one day and say to hell with money!

What is money? It's a token. But what token do I want to face my own end with? A juicy bank account? Or a life of satisfaction knowing that financial profitability was not the constraints that I allowed to bind my hands. I don't want to die wealthy, I want to die have been well lived. If the two happen to coincide for me, well yahoo. But if they don't..and it looks like they won't...who gives a snort? I want to be able to talk about what I did, good, bad, ugly or otherwise, and not just the bottom line. No one, I don't care how many years of education you have, NO ONE, will EVER be in the position to tell ME what I can and cannot do! THe only person slighlty able to upfront stop me, is the banker. His 'no' is a bump in the road...until I find a detour.

There is a time in your life to watch the bottom line, and I think that is the perspective of Authenticfarm. And there comes a time the bottom line is just one more line, one more wrinkle, get over it and keep going! I see my past self, always looking at the dollars as the measure of a good or bad decision. Now I look at the value this expenditure has in my life, and if it adds life value, then that's good enough for me. It has to make sense to my soul, not my checkbook.

Fat Ewe, as to your dilemma with the death of animals, I think that when you keep animals, including meat eating animals as pets, you have to find some way to make peace with the fact that animals die to feed even your pets, if not you.

You commented that you were unwilling to sell your good home raised meat for prices lower than the grocery store prices. For me, I would rather give something away to someone who had a true need, than sell it to someone who begrudges the price. If you can afford (eek the bottom line) to give it to someone in need, then it removes from you the uncomfortable burden of eating it, which you don't sound too thrilled with. It's not a perfect solution, but maybe a more painless solution to eating it.

However, and I warn you that I am a real pill on this issue, any animal who has given hours, weeks and years of its life for you (milk, eggs, draft horses providing muscle) are owed, at your hands, a good death. I find it reprehensible when people use an animal up and when all it has left is old age and death, they move the animal into someone else's hands and wash themselves of any further responsibility. Nope. If you will benefit from what that animal gives, then I think it's up to you to bless the animal with a good end..not just a trip to the auction without a backwards glance. And that involves killing. But the good death of dedicated animals is our obligation, to my way of thinking. Don't need to eat them. Just make sure they die peacefully and before life has become one, long suffering nightmare.

Interesting points of view, Uno.

Now I am curious ladies....care to share your ages?

If it makes you feel any better, I will go first. 49!

I also just clocked over to 49.

Uno, your point is well thought out, but not the reason authentic farm and I think differently. I have done many things in my life and none were money oriented, yet somehow, I have done alright. Things have just worked out, not always the way I would have liked them to, but I am extremely grateful for all I have been blessed with and the bounty is abundant. I know sometimes people have been amazed at what I have been fortunate enough to accomplish, and sometimes I amaze myself. The number of careers and successes I have had are many and truly I am humbled by the experiences I have had which contributed to the person I am today.
But
As a young person, I was always a risk taker as well, the one who would make something out of nothing and go with gut feelings, jumping in with two feet and eyes wide open. Money was never a motivator. I have been rich and I have been desperately poor and the only difference between the two was freedom. I like to think there is nothing I cannot do, only things that I do not know how to yet and there are things that I know how to do, but do not want to do. I have everything I want materially speaking and am not in the space where I want what I do not have.
I wish to better this land, to create a legacy on the farm, provide food for many where currently there is only grass and weeds. And yes, I do give meat away, but it does irk me when someone calls and tells me what I would ask for the price is ridiculous, when it is no different than what the grocery store prices are.

I was a private investigator. It is my nature to be curious. When I want to know more about people, I find out. I look at their history, their past and current situations, their computer skills and their language capabilities and interests. If there is a name or birthdate or email or website, already much information is found on the web, unbeknownst to the people who are not always truthful in what they say. It does not matter though. To me, people are entitled to be whom they think they are even if they like chickens and turkeys, though I do not understand that. I do not have to. I spend hours researching ideas, thinking of my own ideas, writing and readying myself for what I am doing. I ask for opinions of those with more knowledge and wisdom than I possess, yet seldom take advice. Instead, I piece together information like a puzzle and when it all fits, when it supports the greater good and causes the least harm, I adopt it, though with new information, my position could change in a heartbeat. There is no black or white, only varying shades of grey and there is no wrong or right, only moral judgements from those who are convicted to believe what they do.

So, back to my difficulty with raising animals for food...
I need to feel my way through this. If I am going to eat meat, I must make myself comfortable with the fact that I would rather eat the meat I raise than that which some one else does. And yes, each animal is treated humanely with love and respect, except the turkeys, so they had to go. It simply was not fair to have them here when they were sentient enough to feel my distaste for their being. All deserves to be loved. The alternative is not to eat meat and simply have animals as pets, even if they are livestock pets, like the horses, which so far I cannot find a use for. They may have to go. Life is a process of evolutionary events which shape each of us. Two people can go through the same experiences and come away with very different opinions and attitudes, regardless of age. We are not wired the same. It is good for me to come under heavy scrutiny because it tests my metal and pushes me to look deeper inside for kindness.

Thank you all for your comments.

TFE I'm curious to know how you came to be in Alberta after living in the verdant Fraser Valley? I am a transplant from there too and am just curious.

I find that if you personally thank, out loud, each animal whose life you take for food, and if you can possibly have it done on your own property, it makes their consumption easier. There's an honour there, as well as the very practical reality that unshipped animals just taste better (andrenalin doesn't taste very good - it is the metalic taste of fear) and it makes me feel better even if it doesn't help them. But seriously, when you know a much-appreciated animal has also met their death in a most gentle and humane way, it makes it easier to consume the flesh that they're providing.

TFE, are you going to out me for the fake I am? I guess my cover is blown!

The Fat Ewe wrote:
I was a private investigator. It is my nature to be curious. When I want to know more about people, I find out. I look at their history, their past and current situations, their computer skills and their language capabilities and interests. If there is a name or birthdate or email or website, already much information is found on the web, unbeknownst to the people who are not always truthful in what they say.

All I can say is that hearing this from someone I choose to share with makes me feel uncomfortable and mistrustful.

farmchiq, I retired from being a public school teacher, a career that I worked at since 1977, though not full time many of those years. Usually, while running another career, I kept my toes in the door teaching a day or two a week, but not always. Some years I just took off completely. I also was a care giver for my parents, then when my father died, for my mother for a total of 10 years. I moved to her basement and lived there, changed my schools to be in the White Rock area so I could go home at lunch and give her meds and food and kept my own social life to a minimum so I was home to put her to bed. When she finally needed 24 hour care, she was admitted to a nursing home where she still resides. I also ran a green lifestyle store at that time, while teaching music in public schools (3 of them in the same year, 450 kids a week). I have 3 adult children, one of whom is special. I had been working towards owning a bed and breakfast for a while, collecting antiques and fine accouterments, and was ready to go wherever the right place was. After selling the house, retiring from school, closing my organic store (not selling food), I did an internet search across Canada for a specific profile that would suit my dream. Salt Spring Island was my first choice, but I did not have a few million dollars to spend. This farm seemed to be the offering all that I desired, but that was not actually the case, as I discovered and it took a year to right all the things wrong. Finally, the bed and breakfast opened in March of this year and I have been busy learning about farming and shaping my life and goals in the process. This is not to be my last career either. I have another planned after I am done here.

I do thank my animals every day. Every egg I get reminds me of the sacrifice of the hens popping that gross entity out. Gads, it was hard enough giving birth three times, let alone every day. I am grateful for my waterfowl. They keep me entertained with their comics and I pet and love the sheep and goats daily too. I hug the horses and llamas and used to hug my Berkshire pigs but they are sold now until I figure all this out. Although I do not pray over every morsel I take in, I do offer my gratitude for not only the meats, but the plants whose lives are also snuffed out. In the Buddhist philosophy, taking a life is to be avoided, even snuffing out a spider. Whether we kill humanely or not, is not so much the issue as raising life aware of itself to its death.

Uno, what does this mean?
TFE, are you going to out me for the fake I am? I guess my cover is blown!
You can email me if you do not wish to explain here if you like.

I thought if you started investigating me you'd find out I talk a big talk, but don't walk the big walk. That I blow and puff, but am pretty much all show. Anyone investigating me would find I'm not nearly as smart as I think I am. If you looked into my computer skills you would soon realize that my keyboard randomly pops into Spanish and I don't know why or how to fix it. Yo estoy stupida, es verdad!

OF course this is assuming that I was a person of interest in the first place and while I might think myself mighty interesting, it's a stretch to assume the rest of the world does too.