what a horse remembers

This is the giddy relief of a happy ending manifesting itself as another post.

In a very recent and active post where my horse ran into a swamp (stupidly) it came up several times that one cannot and should not punish a horse for something it has no memory of doing. I agree with the no punishing part. It is pointless at this stage. Maybe a body full of pokey burrs will have more of a lasting impact about the stupidity of running into swamps.

But I disagree about horse memories. Do horses truly live only in the moment? I don't think so. Well, yes and no. A horse that chronically lives in the moment would have, in effect, a long term memory deficit and thus, not be able to learn a bloody thing. However, horses are often too darn smart for their own good. They have an experience (how to open the gate) and that 'lesson' is not lost in that moment. That lesson has imprinted itself on the horses brain and you can be sure that horse will be able to open that gate the next time it gets the chance. That is not living in the moment. THat is recalling past events. Memory recall of past events.

You might say the horse only remembers positive things, like how to open the gate and get into the grain bin. Again, I disagree. When our foal was only teeny, she went through the twisted wire fence and skinned all the hide off her hind legs. She was a bloody mess! I lived in fear that she would perform this stunt again. NEVER! She has, ever since that moment, given that wire fence a HUGE distance. That one negative event has cemented itself in her head and she has not forgoten. THat one event was not just 'in that moment', but carried forever with her as a learned change in behaviour.

While a horse might not connect punishment that it gets two days from now with an event that happened two days ago, I do not and cannot think that horses live just in the moment, otherwise they'd be dumb as posts. Learning implies taking present actions and applying them to future events, which horses are amazingly able to do. THey are very smart.

Does a horse connect unpleasant experiences today with something it did two days ago? No. It is pointless and stupid to get mad at the horse over yesterday's sins. But does a horse remember something that happened to it (good or bad) five years before? Yes. So does a horse only live in the moment? This is something I'll have to think on. Now to hear from all the horsey folks...I know you're out there!

Living in the moment. Some animals do it better than others.

This is the best example of living in the moment I know of, from my possibly all time favourite authors.

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The saying around here is. "There is no such thing as a dumb animal". Although the Cornish Giant come very close.

instincts are stronger than memories. It doesn't get any more basic than that.

Running into a swamp is intstinct? She isn't an alligator.

Maybe she knew she needed a bath, and was also hungry. She's multitasking.

All animals, including small worms and humans, learn from (and remember, in some way) experience.

Making a link between cause and effect (e.g. transgression and punishment) is a bit more abstract.

My old mare has always been deathly afraid of being clipped. Any one turns on a pair of clippers and she runs for the hills. She never had a bad experience with them and I spent hours standing next to her with the clippers running trying to desenzatize her. Nothing ever worked. Only sedation with her head on the ground was I ever able to clip her. She also passed this fear on to her son. same deal no bad experience just fear. She is almost 21 years old and I can guarantee you she will run blowing and snorting from the barn if clippers are turned on.

I think they have fantastic memories and will carry any fears for life. Unless her experience was not frightening to her!

I think her jumping the fence was her instinctive response to flee, set off by the whip. Taking the easy route would have never entered her brain.

I think horses are way smarter than people usually give them credit for. I totally agree punishment must be immediate for it to be effectively understood by the horse, but the same is true of children.
Delayed punishment with children is not nearly so effective and must be explained to be understood.
I also think that sometimes punishment is inappropriate, if an amimal is acting on fear or pain, punishment will just compound the problem.
I also think just like us horses can have phobias that may not make sense to us, but people phobias often don't make much sense either.
I also believe that just like people horses can be scared emotionally when they are young sometimes so severely they cannot ever fully recover from it.
I also think that just like people horses have chemistry with people, sometimes good chemistry sometimes bad.
People that can really get inside the head of a horse (so called horse whisperers) can usually figure out why a horse is doing something, and the reason once understood often makes perfect sense. When you have good chemistry with an animal be it a horse, a dog , a cat or whatever, it is amazing how clear body language can be, how effective eye contact can be, how understandable otherwise puzzling behaviours can be.
I have no idea why your horse would have gone into the swamp, but it is interesting it went to a place where it knew it could not be reached, maybe needed some alone time, maybe a bad mood who knows, but I bet there is a good reason, the hard part is to figure out what it is.
I am glad this horse is with you and your daughter uno, as you are trying to understand its behaviour instead of sending it to horse heaven. At the same time your daughters safety must come first.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

The more we own horses, the more I realize what I DON'T know.

Daughter's horses know what a lunge whip is. It is not new to any of them , nor are they ever hit with one. This is not the first time Lily has been exposed to a lunge whip or asked to go over a free jump. None of this is new. Daughter can take the whip and rub it all over the horse's body, while the horse is at liberty, they do NOT fear the whip as an instrument of torture. It was not fear nor pain that sent Lily sailing over that barrier (great form, might I add).

BUt I have a theory....Lily was rescued from a starving herd. Two horses were dead from starvation already when we picked a staggering Lily out of the herd and brought her bone thin, battered and bitten, head dragging self home to our place. In all this time Lily has one, singular focus, FOOD! I had hoped that as she was fed generously and regularly, that this psychotic need to eat would ease, but she is driven to get to whatever bit of green she can find. I believe this is the curse and legacy that people damn horses with when they starve them. A panicked need to eat that NEVER goes away.

The route that Lily took after she leapt out of the arena seemd stupid and silly, ran past an open hay shed into a swamp. BUt the only visible green grass for miles was sticking up above the ice. And in she went and was eating that grass when we finally left. It's like she's been standing in her corral for the past two months just waiting for the day she had her chance to get to that grass.

Lily is not abused, she is fed three times a day, she had supplements while nursing her foal and was weaned early because I was alarmed at how thin Lily was getting despite my supplemental feeding. I simply think that the damamge done by beign starved over-rides anything else in that horse's head. This is the only explanation I can come up with because doing what she was being asked to do would have taken way less energy and effort than what she ended up doing.

I've talked to people who rescued starved horses and some get over it, but others never do. Seems this is Lily's chief fear and main goal, to get to food. That is the only reason I can figure a horse would leap over a 4 foot wall to avoid a 2 foot jump.

I would bet you answered it best yourself. Our old girl Ruby loved our swampy pond, as the tastiest things grew in there. Perhaps Lily has been in one before.

With all thats been said I thought I'd add that they have a sense about them I guess ? It works against me though ! I have NEVER met a horse that didn't try to bite me ! Even my father in laws did ? Whats up with that ?? I haven't ever done anything with them , although I did always want one , but not when they behave like that .

They're just trying to put you in your place. Below them!

Maybe she's an emotional eater?

In times of stress she looks for food. I'm like that sometimes....

Hillbilly wrote: They're just trying to put you in your place. Below them!

....what do you mean by that ? It's a beast of burden , I'm not !

All they see, is a leader, and a follower. They would rather be the former, as opposed to the latter.

Hillbilly wrote:All they see, is a leader, and a follower. They would rather be the former, as opposed to the latter.

.....alright then , wasn't sure what you meant .I do understand that part though , but it still doesn't explaine why they want to bite me ? I even had a friend who raised a foal from young and i was living there and the little buger wanted to bite me all the time ?? I can't remember if the owner was ever bitten , but it just seems strange behavior from a animal ? Guess I'll never own one ?

You just need to teach them that behavior is unacceptable. A lot of horses use their mouths. Are they actually biting you, or just grabbing you with. Their mouths?

Biteing ! ears laid back , hair standing on end ? No other animal acts that way towards me , have had cattle , no problems , dogs ,cats, etc .I had to take care of a friends horse years ago and the dang thing would try to sneak up on me from behind ! not a fun experiance .But I always wanted a Morgan ,was even offered two for free ( lady was Ill and I did some work in her house ) My wife took rideing lessons as a youth , barrel raceing etc , she would love a horse , but If I have to feed it it better not bite me .........as per the old saying !

Don't give up. They aren't all like that. I had a big warmblood as a boarder that did the same to me daily. He would challenge me like that, then when he got the idea that wasn't going to fly with me, he would submit. Next day, he'd challenge me again. It was a never ending battle with him. If you really want one, you should go spend some time with others so you can lose the idea that they will treat you like that.

Priarie dog, I share your pain. HOrses bully me on a daily basis. They know that I don't know how to handle them and thus abuse me regularly.

A horse is wired differently than a dog. A horse wants to be the boss of you. There is a battle of wills. Not all horses are this way. Geldings are usually more relaxed in this manner and mares are the worst, usually. But a horse bite is a serious thing and when someone's horse pins an ear, gives me the hairy eyeball and snakes that head at me, I don't care whose horse it is, it gets a hard smack in the face. Hard. In the face. Bite me and I hit you in the face. Period.

There are many, many philosphies about horse training and handling and many people would never consider whacking a horse that is biting them. Me, I consider it my only option in that moment to save myself from losing a chunk of my hide. If you want to whisper gentley to your horse while it sinks its teeth in your arm, go ahead. Maybe sing a few bars of your favorite childhood lullaby too, you know, to soothe the savage beast. Me...brute force. How do horses communicate with each other? First by very subtle means which ramps immediately into brute force should the subtle part fail. If you've ever seen one horse kick another, you will know that your slap really isn't a threat. But sometimes it's your only option.

I have no personal horse philosophy. Horses scare the beejeebers out of me! But horsey teen insists on respect at all times staring with behaviour at feeding time. She makes all horses MOVE OFF at feed time. If this involves going in with a big stick and waving it around like a lunatic, so be it, but no horse gets to move in until AFTER she leaves. No horse is allowed a mouthful of hay until she is not standing at the hay. If the day starts with respect at feeding time, she feels the pump is primed for everything else to go well. If the horse tramples you at feed time, crowds you or snatches food out of your arms...trouble ahead.

Prairie, stick with sheep. I don't think sheep are biters.

Horses are herd animals and there is a hierarchy in the herd. Do you want to be at the bottom or the top. Any group of horses are a herd and you are part of their herd if you interact with them regularly. The boss of the herd doesn't take sh*t from anyone, that is me! It takes a major presence to do that with a group of horses and I rarely have to resort to anything more than my presence, but sometimes I do and I am willing to if need be. Horses use their teeth and feet to work their way up, I make sure my group never comes to that with me. If I need to deal with something it is done quickly, firmly with as much force as I need and then it is over just a quickly. They must feel very threatened for a short period of time for it to work effectively.
Feeding time is when it shows the most the boss eats first until they allow the others in. This is a good place to establish your place, but if you have grown horses that don't respect you, be very careful if you decide to start here.
My horses and I spend lots of quality time together, but it is with my boundries. My gelding loves my hair, ALOT, and he is allowed to play with it when I allow him and if he is careful. It is a nice thing to share with him, but he never over steps the line without concequences (he rarely does overstep, that is why he is allowed to play with it sometimes).
Uno, sounds like teen is doing a good job. Just encourage her not to hold a grudge, horses don't understand that, they really live in the now.

Right now I'm thinking of a John Wayne movie where he looks at his horse and then WHAM , gives it a fist in the jaw ! Seems that it reacted better after that ! And Uno , we don't ride sheep here in Manitoba ........maybe in Alberta they do ??

Sheep riding is called mutton bustin on the rodeo circuit lol.