Gapeworm, Tapeworm and other worm discussion

The taenia solium affects pigs and humans, look at the picture of it, sickening

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I know the thread is about gapeworm, but just had to look......

And this one (taenia sagninata) affects humans and cattle

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

AND THIS IS THE CHICKEN TAPEWORM, FAR CRY FROM GAPEWORM, BUT IMPORTANT STUFF!!

davainea proglottina

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Pops Coops, good that was the site that I linked to as well and got information from.

Hidden, good information. But now my undestanding is that fenbendazole (safe guard) will take care of the tapeworm as well, from reading the site. Now I don't think I will need to use the valbazen, I'll probably try to find a sheep farmer around that would be interested in purchasing this from me inexpensively, smiling. I am sure I can find one. Have a beautiful and wonderful day, CynthiaM.

CynthiaM you are getting us all sorts of good information with this thread.

Then there is the ivomec. Someone referred to it as ivermectin. What is the drug to use, there obviously is injectable and non-injectable....What is the product name that I should be looking for?

What you want to look for is the active ingredient in products. Ivomec is the product name and ivermectin is the active ingredient. There are quite a few different `mectin` type drugs and they are very similar in their actions. Abamectin was the first (I believe it is a mixture of avermectins) and is the cheapest, usually (it was in the cheap horse wormers in Australia anyways). It does not have as large a margin of error as the ivermectin. It is very difficult to overdose with ivermectin. There is Moxidectin....hmm...and a couple of others that I can not think of right now.
Eprinex has eprinomectin as it`s active ingredient and that is what I use on the chickens because we use it on the cattle.

I believe fenbendazole is the active ingredient in dog wormer that is good for tape worm. I don`t know anything about gapeworm at all (well, I know more now thanks to this) but it must be susceptible to what tapeworm is by the sounds of it. I will have to look into this safeguard stuff too.

I am off to have a look through all the links now. Thanks for posting all this good stuff everyone!

Okay Cynthia I dont want to cause anymore confusion but can maybe answer soem of your burning drug questions.

Drug Names

When a company formulates a new drug they put a patent (Trade mark) on the drug. It usually lasts for a period of time while that company has exclusive rights to that drug. They choose the form, who its labeled to use on, what it treats and most importantly cost. When the patent comes off that specific drug its a free for all for every drug company. This now creates new names for essentially the same product, new forms ( pastes vs liquids vs granuals)new uses and usually drives the cost down as now there is competation.

Many of the drug are labeled for a specific use in a specific animal but are used in other species for different issues. This is called off label use. Happens all the time. The drug companys are not interested in doing the research to get official labeling for every single possible usage. So usually with trial and error over the years it is seen what works for what and usually safe dosages. But the companys will not support the off label use of a product. If you were to kill your entire flock for example using a product not labeled for use in poultry they would not give a crap as thats not the drugs intended use. Make sense?

You need to keep in mind that all the drugs mentioned are a class or family of drugs specific to work against parasites ( just as nartocics are a class of drugs for pain control, antibiotics are a class for infective issues). Some are better for external parasites and some internal. In general most of these drug are related and with the right doseing could possibly be used for many uses. This again comes back to the off label use issue. The most important issue is correct dosing so that the birds acchieve theraputic levels in their system to be effective. If you under dose it does not matter what you use and how long you treat for it wont be effective.

I only mentioned the panacur because I know the forms it comes in and thought it would be easier to dose then guessing with a pea sized amount of horse wormer. If you can find safguard or panacure granules is would be easier to add to water to do the entire flock. Please keep in mind not all the drugs are okay to use and still consume the eggs. Ivermectin is ok the safguard/panacure is not.

The best advice is to read the labes. Look for the active medical ingredient and not the trade name.

Also for the people looking for ivermectin, do not buy the pour on as it is oil based and will not mix will with water. Look for straight injectable if you are wanting to use that.

Also on a side note. A reputable breeder in the states uses ivermectin do deworm her flock quartly. She states that although it does not treat active gapeworm it does help prevent it. I assume its effective on the eggs but not the adults.

Modes of action

I think cynthia you kind of answered your own question about how the medication works against the parasites that are in the trachea while the meds are injested orally.

All medication taken orally is absorbed by the body and distrubuted microsopically to all cells at every cellular level. It travels in the blood and lymphatic systems to reach the problem areas. Think of this ways it end up even in every secretion such as salivia or urine. It will reach the worms in the trachea, they will die and the body will then send in special cells to metabolize and clean up the mess left behind.

There are also many of the topical antiparasiticals that are absorbed by the skin into the blood stream then are redistrubuted into feathers/fur of the animal. This is how some products although applied topically is effecitve against both internal and external parasites ( revolution or advantix for dogs and cats are such products).

Does this help at all or more confusion

Anne

Coopslave, knowledge is power and the more powerful we become in all manner of things in life, the better life becomes, in every regard, that is my take on knowledge. I am a seeker of knowledge (mentioned before that tatoo on my ankle of the African tribe of the Akan, which signifies, "search for knowledge") -- well, that is me, right through to my very bones, smiling that big smile. I hope this thread helps others as much as it has helped me for sure.

Anne, you have taken a great deal of time to impart your words for us to listen to. thank you for that, you shine through. I am now off to get some safeguard, still haven't found out if it is here on our farm, but will, if not, on a trip to Surecrop, they have most medications for the livestock industry, then perhaps Armstrong stuff. Have a most wonderful day, thank you all for being you, CynthiaM.

I hope it helps a little for everyone.

If you get stuck let me know I can probably get something ordered in for early next week

Phew, done. What an ordeal. Surecrop said that they had Safe-Guard suspension. But...it was like over $100 for a container, think it was like 500 ml or something, not....they had Safe-Guard paste, $15 or so for a tube, nope.

I phoned the Armstrong vet clinic as I know they have everything. They could order in Safe-Guard crystals in 20 kg pails, nope....don't need that much.

I told her that I wanted a product that had fenbendazole in it and she said they had panacur suspension. It was $200 for a litre. Nope. Don't need that much.

I indicated that I needed a relatively small amount, say 100 ml. She said they would dispense that and off I went to pick it up. Still freakin' expensive. $33 for the 100 ml, but should do all the birds quite nicely and while I am at it, think I might worm the dog. Three days at 1 cc per 4.5 pounds weight, he is about 100 pounds, kind of a big boy, smiling.

So, tomorrow morning I will be issuing meds to the birds, will replenish the medicated water each day with fresh. Hoping one half gallon at a time will suffice, I will check the water morning and night, and if needs replenishing later in the day, so be it.

Anyways, with the prior treatments for lice and mites and worms, hopefully we'll enter winter with happy, clean and healthy birds, yay!! That makes me feel comfortable knowing that things are in order. Have a wonderful and great rest of today. CynthiaM.

Does anyone know if medicated chicken water can go in the galvanized waterers? Just thought about this, I will be readying the water this morning and worry that there may be an interaction with metal, and I need to know. Beautiful days, CynthiaM.

How has the de-worming gone cynthia? Is your guy feeling better at all yet?

Anne

Hmmm. How best to deliver the meds to the birds? You have no doubt already done so as I type this, but I toss it out for you to consider for another time.

Do they need SOME medication or do they need ALL the medication?

If you mix it with water, you have no way of knowing how much water each bird drinks, and you have left over water to toss out after a day or two of drinking it. So, how much meds did each bird get?

WHen I want to dose birds with something I want them to consume ALL of, I make slop. Mix the medication with some water, or oil if it's an oily medication. Pour this water or oil over lay pellets or something else they are guaranteed to eat. Do not make a lot. You want to drop small blobs of this stuff all over and make sure that everyone gets their fair share of it. Then ALL the medicated goodies are eaten up, the ENTIRE amount of meds has been consumed, and each bird is stuffing their face as much as they can. But to me, in the case of Safeguard, doing it in the waterer leaves too much to chance. Besides, it tastes like crap and unless it is disguised with desireable treats, it might be rejected.

When I use piperazine, I do it in water, but it is not pound specific medication like Safeguard is.

Oh Uno, why do you have to throw a crinkle in the sheets, smiling. You are a very thought provoking woman (you probably know this already and you most likely drive your poor Husband nuts!! like you are doing to me right now ). All in good teasing, you know I lova u!!

Anyways, yes, I have thought of this possibility too. That is why I was going to use valbazen some time ago for tapeworm, along with regular wormer meds (in their water, again, the valbazen .5 cc down the gullet for a large fowl bird). I didn't do the med down the throat because it terrorized me that I might drown a bird whilst dosing. The windpipe is in the wrong place on a chicken I would like to mention, it should be somewhere else, smiling again. Seem to be smiling alot this AM.

Anyways, yes, I worried that not enough dosage would be happening. I have read over and over 5 cc (ml) (1 teaspoon) in a gallon of water. That is what I did. I am on day three today.

The birds have not been free ranging for this time period. They have to stay home, sigh...they don't like it and look at me so longingly to get let out to go and find the freshest horsey poopy stuff (with 5 horses, a whole lotta good stuff out there to punch around), the dead grasshoppers that clearly must be around, and the remaining bugs of the year. Getting pretty cold, so bug numbers are certainly down. But they are finding something in the fields on either side of our property, I see them out there doing their thing .

Brother, rambly ol' me. So getting back to the water. They don't have any water other than medicated. In the buckeye pen there are, let me do a head count in my mind, 6 adults, 9 adolescents about 20 weeks old. The cochins, 7 adults, 5 pre-teens, the buff orpingtons, 10 adolescents, about 20 weeks old, the older flock of buff orpingtons, 7 adults. Some time in the near future there will be 7 less buff orpingtons, the unchosen-to-stay ones have a date in Kelowna with Peggy (along with several buckeyes).

So......20 adult birds, 19 adolescents and 5 pre-teens (the 7 three week old ones did not get worming meds).

I want you to tell me how you could take that many birds and ensure that each gets a dose of medication in the food as you have described. In my mind's eye, it sounds like it would be next to impossible. There are always birds that are more hungry, or should I say are just with a more aggressive appetite. Giving them all food to share around equally would be next to impossible.

Water medication or syringed medication would appear to me to be the only way to go.

Now, whether or not each bird has received an appropriate amount of the medicated water is a gamble. I can only surmise that each one gets "enough". That water is discarded each morning with new water put in, with meds in it.

Each pen has a plastic water font which holds one gallon, you know the kind.

Two mornings so far I have replaced the water, and today will be the final day. The water font is almost all gone by the time of replacement, so I know that the birds are drinking it. Again, not sure if each bird got enough, but I have to hope so.

If the weather was warmer, I would imagine more drinking would go on, but being cool as it is, they are not consuming that much really. One gallon a day betwixt these birds, seems not like a whole lot.

Taste. I am using panacur, safe-guard was extremely expensive and came in huge amounts, well, except for the paste tube for horses, think it was like $12.50 or something, but I was not after a paste. Panacur has the same active ingredient, (fenbendazole) as safe-guard.

Taste, right. I am going to taste a little of the panacur today and I will let you know what it tastes like. I recall you in another post speaking of the awful taste of safe-guard (your first hand knowledge, smiling, think some got flung into your mouth when you were trying to worm a horsey at your place or something, smiling).

So, Uno, I have no clue if each bird got enough of a dose. But I just can hope so, during a day, surely each chicken must have partaken of the medicated water.

I am wondering here...I should do a stool sample with the birds when all is said and done.

Does anyone know what power of microscope one requires to view eggs in chicken feces? What worm byproducts, like worms or eggs looks like? I think that feces examinations can be done somewhere, but not sure who would do it, cost, etc. But honestly, it would be an interesting thing to do, study the chicken poop oneself to ascertain if there are worms/eggs still present after worming. Anyone done this?

Oh this surely must conclude this post, I have rambled on long enough. Do have that wonderful and great day to all, CynthiaM.

I am counting now, still in my head the numbers of birds and I will further describe what I have done.

Humm, I am picking up some medication today, I was going to put it in the water too. Now I am second guessing that. Maybe if I mix some in treats and put some in the water I will be sure to get each bird. I am not sure yet what I am getting, I asked for safeguard, the lady at the counter said the active ingredients was the same in all the internal worming products so I told her to order me enough for two dosing. Three packets 3.00 per packet, one packet a day, repeat in ten days.
I have some very shy and some very greedy birds so the treats will almost certainly end up in the more aggressive birds. I suppose I could give each bird a treat as they come out of the coop in the morning and them let them out of the pen before letting the next few out. Yup that is what I am going to try. I decide this as I type.

I am asking a moderator to change the post title to reflect that it is not only gapeworm involved in this thread, that my help others when they are searching for information I hope. Have a wonderful and great day, CynthiaM.

I am sure you could drop a sample off at your local vet clinic. I would try and get a few different samples and mix them together. The stool is mixed in a special solution that causes the eggs to float to the top ( of a special disposable container). we are then able to put what floats to the top on a slide and look for eggs. Although the average vet tech does not look at chicken poop everyday the eggs you definatly notice no matter what species and we have great books that help id specifically what they are. The cost is not huge for this. Are you going to repeat the meds? If so I would wait until after that time.

I think you have to have faith that the dilution of the medication is correct and based on what a chicken should consume in 24hrs should be a certian dose of the diluted meds. They would base the 5cc per gallon on that theory.

Hope everyone is feeling better

Anne

I understand the 5cc per gallon dilution but what I ended up with was granules and I am not sure if the 1 gram packages would count as 1cc of liquid????

I told the girl at the counter I had 30 chickens, she told me I would need three 1 g packages per day for three days. (nine packages and an additional nine for the second treatment.
I have the packets of Panacur granules (fenbendazole 222/g)
On the package it says 5 g panacur per 50 lbs weight. for three days.
30 chickens at about 5 lbs apiece equal
150 lbs of chicken. So 5g per 50 lbs equals 15 packets a day not 3. At three dollars per packet that becomes very pricey.
Moral of the story do your own math.
Sorry I hop between metric and old school but I'm half dinasaur.Maybe I have errored on my math, I will have to recheck.

I havent read the whole topic, so not sure if someone has said this already...

If your purchasing Ivomec, consider Noromectin. It is a fraction of the cost, and does pretty much the same thing - as far as I know, its just a "knock off" of Ivomec. It was advised to me. A 5L bottle of Noromectin was $28.

Sorry Cynthia, guess I complicated things without meaning to. I realize now that you are not dealing with the PASTE form, which is automatically what I think about when I hear Safeguard. If you are using a powdered water soluble form then we can assume it will work out as it is supposed to.

I had visions of myself with a bucket of goo under my arm, walking among the birds, splatting gobs of this onto the ground like flinging mashed potatoes. There would be many globs and many chickens running from glob to glob, so the greedy guts couldn't possibly chase the timid ones away from ALL the meds! Just me thinking aloud! Sorry.

nuthatch333 wrote:I understand the 5cc per gallon dilution but what I ended up with was granules and I am not sure if the 1 gram packages would count as 1cc of liquid????

I told the girl at the counter I had 30 chickens, she told me I would need three 1 g packages per day for three days. (nine packages and an additional nine for the second treatment.
I have the packets of Panacur granules (fenbendazole 222/g)
On the package it says 5 g panacur per 50 lbs weight. for three days.
30 chickens at about 5 lbs apiece equal
150 lbs of chicken. So 5g per 50 lbs equals 15 packets a day not 3. At three dollars per packet that becomes very pricey.
Moral of the story do your own math.
Sorry I hop between metric and old school but I'm half dinasaur.Maybe I have errored on my math, I will have to recheck.

Nuthatch, look at post #8 by Pops coops here, he mentioned safe-guard granuals 1 tsp per gallon (5 ml). I think that is the dosage that is standard. I hop between metric and imperial too, gets a little confusing at times though, sigh.

Today I remove the med water. Today I will pick up that big boy and listen to his breath. This is the day. I will report my findings when I can. I would presume now if there was a gapeworm issue and the medication worked, that the symptoms should have disappeared by the fourth day (three days of full medication).

Uno....I am not using a paste. I am using panacur and it is a supension, not a paste form. You are reading something wrong here I think, smiling that big smile.

Wonderful days to us all, CynthiaM.

Yesterday was the end of the medication using panacur for the wormy things in the chickens. I was on a hunt for anything that might indicate that worms were taken care of. And I found my prize.

Yep, a big blog of freshy made, huge cochin poop. They are big birds with big poop. Fresh as fresh could be. I bent over and looked at is, ich, stinky, ich, and yep, there I saw two ichy, stinky horrible round worms. The worm that was on the ground beside this ichy, ucky, stinky blob of cochin poo was about 2.5 inches long. The other worm was on the outside of the big huge, ichy, stinky cochin poop. I went and got something and picked it up in order to examine this awful thing more closely. I prodded and pushed and moved those worms around. They were dead, dead as a dead thing could possibly be. Unless they were pretending to be not alive.

Unless these were live worms, pretending to be dead, I would have to venture a guess that the medication did work, against round worms anyways.

I spent a good deal of time scouring around the other three yards outside and couldn't find any new blobs of ichy, stinky other-bird-poops. Only the stuff below the roosts, and I ain't gonna be poking around in those piles of poo.

But onto the main reason why I was even making this discussion anyways. It was about gapeworm and a young buff orpington cockerel (20 weeks old), that had a very discernable gurgly noise when he breathed and stretching his neck out, like he was trying to get extra air. I still believe he had gapeworm, as not a symptom has shown up in well over 40 other birds. I do not believe there is a respiratory illness floating around in my flocks, nope, sure it is gapeworm, hence the medications.....

I picked up this enormous big and fluffy buff orpington dude. He didn't like that. But that is OK. I held him gently but firmly for a good few minutes. I sat on the grain pail, so I could be comfortable in his outside yard. A little small, it is a gallon pail and had grain in it from my throwing scratch out. It hurt my bum cause the rim of the pail is well, a rim of a gallon pail and it is not that big, but I have a tiny bum, so I fit on it OK, smiling.

His name is going to be Jackson, smiling. I love that name, and I think he will be named that. He is one of the dudes that is staying at our home, and I think two others (eeks, I am having a tough time here trying to figure out who to keep in the zoo), either 3 or 4 will go off to processing next week, but he is staying for surely. A very promising look dude. Anyways. I placed my face along side his face so he couldn't peck my eyes. And I listened, and I listened and I listened. I spent a full two or three minutes listening.

Guess what? I heard a little raspiness, that is all I can really describe it as. There was no gurgling sound. This gurgling sound that had initially caused alarm was heard from several feet away. It was a sound that was as clear as the day is now getting short. And it was easy to tell whom it was coming from. Yes, I still heard some breathing that I could not consider completely normal, but it was not gurgly by any stretch of the imagination. I believe he had gapeworm now, 100% guaranteed. I also think that there must have been quite a load of them to cause this sound that was experienced. I also think that perhaps it takes a good few days for the worms to be entirely gone and out of the throat. So three days on medication, surely do believe that the worm has been conquered. I am grateful for all the knowledge I gain in every day of my life.

Gapeworm is a clear and present danger. After reading all the posts (especially MSmall's about losing 1/3 of her flock to the creepy worm), and others' experiences, I am armed now with more further knowledge and experimentation. this makes me happy and this makes me feel like things are just, well, plain and simply awesome!!

Gapeworm.....in my experience, that gurgling that affects perhaps only one, or maybe two, or maybe three, with the head stretched out getting air, can definitely be a sign of gapeworm. It could be respiratory too, but I would certainly err on the thought that it is gapeworm and treat for that firstly, before putting antibiotic medication into the chicken water.

My experience, I hope it may help others out, others' experiences too, I hope it may help others out too. And along with that, have a most wonderful day, CynthiaM.

The gapeworm treatment using panacur (fenbendazole 5 ml per four litres for three days) was 100% effective for the treatment of gapeworm.

Many will not have the time or wish to review all the posts regarding my experience with this worm, so I will recap, very briefly, as briefly as I can, my time with it.

About three weeks ago (this is very vague), I noticed one of the young buff orpington cockerels (20 weeks old now) displaying a gurgling sound. This was discernable as I walked into the coop, so picture quite a loud sound. I left him alone and kept watch on that. When I moved him and his comrades of the same breed and age into a new coop to be alone for a time before selection of who to keep in the new breeding pool, I noticed something else. It would appear that he had a bit of a time breathing and stretched his head out, opened his mouth slightly and pulled in, what I presume to be air. Which it was, of course. This young fellow was the only one displaying this very noticeable gurgling sound. Considering that he was the only one in all my yards, which is comprised of about 50 birds, I thought that very odd, so really did not suspect a respiratory illness. I had recalled reading something about a worm the chickens can get in the throat, called gapeworm and did some research. After this research, considered that since we have so many worms, snails, grasshoppers, blue bottle flies (and a mountain of others that are hosts to this gapeworm thingy), there may be a likelihood he may have gapeworm. Now I was on to get medication for that thing, and did more research, from our forum here and on the internet. I procured a medication that is fenbendazole, which goes under many names, but I used the brand name panacur. This was given to all my birds for three days, all eggs have been appropriately discarded during that time period and for a bit more....

The day after the last dose of medication, I had picked up the big dude, now named Jackson, and listened to his breath. I could hear some raspiness, but not the gurgling that was so noticeable.

Yesterday, up came Jackson to my lap and he sat with me for a few minutes. I listened and I listened and I listened and then listened some more. I am sure he was in shock with my face near his. Perfectly clear, sweet -- the sound of a bird breathing. There was no raspiness, no gurgling. Gone....period. Gone from a gurgling sound that could be heard from many feet away, to nothing.

Gapeworm, oh what a lovely thing. 100% positive that this bird was affected with the worm in his trachea and 100% positive that fenbendazole worked to rid the worm. I think that it took a few days after treatment for all the worms to be dislodged from the trachea, (the worms grab on with their "mouth" parts and stay there is my understanding) and be gone, leaving a clear airway.

Gapeworm. Watch out. I would suggest that if anyone is hearing a gurgly sound and gasping for air, that don't reach first for a big gun, like an antibiotic, but to consider that there may be that gapeworm cluster in the throat. Don't take this as gospel, but I would seriously now always consider this firstly, before I reached for an antibiotic.

Just an experience from an inexperienced girl. I never even knew this worm was a clear and present danger, until I had "heard" about it, studied about it, and then tackled it.

Remember that word.

Gapeworm.


And have a most wonderful day, CynthiaM.

It is good to hear it worked so effectively! Well done.
Do you mind telling me where you got your panacur from?

Coopslave, I got the panacur from the Armstrong Vet Clinic, but I would imagine that any vet will carry it. They did not carry safe-guard, but would have had to order it in, (I wanted the crystal form), in 25 kg bags

It was $33 (tax in) for 100 ml, something like $240 for a litre, sigh....perhaps there are less expensive out there, but I know this worked...no clue if it took care of any tapeworm, if that is present, but evidently it takes care of that too. I still think that I might get a fecal sample from the pens, mix them together and request a vet clinic to do a study to see if there are any eggs present of any worms of any sort. My understanding of panacur that it was that 3 day treatment and no further, but again, not sure about that. I would need to do further research to see if this covers the eggs too....still learning, so much to learn, but oh man, oh man, it sure is fun!! Beautiful and wonderful days, CynthiaM.