Are you a Keeper or a Breeder or somewhere in between?

Rico, this has been a great thread. I have enjoyed reading everyone's posts and actually feel like I am getting to know everyone a little better.

Thanks coopslave. Yes, It make for a better understanding of where people are coming from and why they ask certain questions.

i would be a fancier, but i am trying to become a breeder, as i keep getting rid of breeds and getting more specialized.

Breeder of flemish giant rabbits and fancier of poultry. Getting to know the wyandottes is great fun and hope to breed them as good or better then the flock i started with.

I am most certainly a dabbler. I keep chickens for my own entertainment. In all honesty, I needed something to get me out of the house during the winter. I hate winter and suffer from seasonal depression. The birds have really helped. I raise birds just for me and cull heavily, but not to an SOP, I have my own standard. Some day, when my kids get older, I want to get into a breed more seriously, perhaps a breeder, but I need to raise my kids first, and for now I will feed them my culls.

I would like to think that I am in the early stages of becoming a breeder. I suspect I still have one too many breeds, but we'll see. I still have many years of work and improvement to do before I am knowledgeable enough to call myself a breeder, but that is the goal.

Of primary importance for me is the aim of preserving heritage breeds by reinvigorating their commercial viability, the whole "have to eat it to save it" motto. This makes heavy culling very easy for me to do, since I sell poultry meat.

So I guess maybe I fall somewhere in between 3 and 4? Maybe a little bit of 2 since the most economical way to raise larger flocks faster was to purchase most of my initial stock from hatcheries/auctions. I still have to bring in commercial Plymouth rocks and BBB's to fill some of our customer orders for roasters and turkeys, but hopefully in a couple of years all our poultry sales will come from our own birds.

I like to think I'm a little bit of everything as well as one I'd like to add. Preservationist, the large fowl breeds I keep are to use them as they were originally intended for meat and eggs as well I practice breeding to the Standard. I've made mistakes and learned from them. I certainly enjoy showing and hope to make it to at least one show this year.

I'm just another "wanna be poor" farmer with chikns. Hatch them grow them eat them sell them, in fact you can even dance naked around a fire with them if you want to, just don't invite me to that party LOL.

reneggaide wrote: I'm just another "wanna be poor" farmer with chikns. Hatch them grow them eat them sell them, in fact you can even dance naked around a fire with them if you want to, just don't invite me to that party LOL.

cool!! beautiful days, CynthiaM.

Currently a waffler

CynthiaM- Just out of curiosity......Is there really anything wrong with buying at sales when we know where and who it's coming from?
I would like to think that the people who take time to talk chicken all the time(on here) really love their chickens and want to keep on learning etc. That's my thought. I like being a seller/buyer I know it is personal opinions here. Are chicks really that hard to sell? I am kind of shocked by that but maybe if I continue with my plan of breeding the chickens I don't usually see for sale up here it would be ok. I certainly don't want mass production, just a little to add to our hobby farm.

My long term dream is to find a breed or two and focus on improving it, and showing. But in the meantime I really have to focus on my dogs and my goats, enjoy my beautiful assortment of chickens and eat my farm fresh eggs!

uno wrote:I like these categories, I think they are well thought out. Might I suggest one?

DABBLER

I keep birds that appeal to my eye and personal idea of purpose. I cross birds just to see what comes out. Sometimes it is boring, sometimes it is surprising and sometimes you get lucky and get something you really like!(Dark Brahma rooster over Black Australopr hens, I LOVE those babies!)

A Dabbler has a smallish flock, not through culling, but because they have not yet discovered a way to racoon proof the chicken pen. SO while a Dabbler creates interesting mutts, they are also trying to design and build a chicken pen that is more like Fort Knox than a picturesque hen house.

A Dabbler sells eggs to the neighours and maybe hatching eggs to someone who wants to test drive a bator. Will also sell chicks to people but not make a single claim about the lay potential, growth potential or anything else about their chicks other than "They are chickens."

A Dabbler appreciates their poultry just the way they are, imperfect and heavily predated, noisy, poopy, dinosaur-like and amusing. If you ask a Dabbler why they keep poultry, they are likley to smile, shrug and ask if you'd like to see their chickens.

Thought provoking thread.

I think I have to agree with Uno. A little bit of everything for my own purposes. Meat, eggs, enjoyment, experimentation. Well said Uno, well said.

chickadee wrote:
CynthiaM- Just out of curiosity......Is there really anything wrong with buying at sales when we know where and who it's coming from?

Absolutely compelled to answer this, although may be infringing in the grey area of "off topic". I should clarify what I mean. The only time that I would buy from a sale, I don't care what kind of sale, be that auction or community sale, is if I were to purchase birds at a poultry show. I am not saying at all that there are ill kept birds when people bring their beloveds to these sales to sell, I am sure that people will bring healthy stock, or at least I hope they would, healthy stock. But there are a whole lotta birds at sales and my concern is that there is a possibility that something could come home to my flocks. I do not have the room for segregation when I purchase, they must mingle with my flock almost immediately. I NEED to be 100% (or as close as I can) sure that there is no disease present -- this I can be pretty much clear on purchasing in private sale, from someone I know and I know how they take care of their birds and the habitat of such. As to my former statement about purchasing from a poultry show, I can almost bet my bottom dollar that any bird sold there would be of high quality, disease free and I could mingle with my birds at home. Birds entered into poultry shows are more likely to be healthy, unless there is some hidden illness the shower does not know about. This is a very grey area and I probably should not have said anything to begin with, but these are my feelings and I must speak that inner voice . I did not mean ANYTHING derogatory about purchasing from public sales, just my personal option that I would not. Period. Never. Ever. Period. I am too paranoid of a person for such purchases. Did not mean to offend anyone if I did, my pardon. Have an awesome day, CynthiaM. Still wondering if I should push the send button, oh well....done is done.

Sorry if I am hijacking......

Oh CynthiaM, I sure didn't mean to worry you I am very happy you added that in there because it adds awareness on the buyer and sellers part. I was just curious, that is all. We all have our own opinions and there certainly isn't anything wrong with that.
I personally like to make safe purchases as well. I'm paranoid about other things too. They are all my babies and most people don't understand for example why I won't let my puppies be touched before a certain age or why I don't want goats coming and going......
See Deep down we are the same! I just don't know all about the chicken diseases that I might accidentally bring home. I will find out though, and hopefully through experienced people/reading and not by ending up with it here.

CynthiaM, you are right on with your comments. Normally auction or community sale, as you mentioned, are birds that are not top show quality stock. Anyone who wishes to improve their stock and buy good quality will not find them at auction and community sales. You need to buy at a show or breeders sale.

The CHB sales on Saturday was to be more of a breeders sale but didn't really work out that way. Yes, there were people who were selling good breeding stock but there was also lots of mail order birds that were just for keepers or buyer/sellers. The breeding stock was the same price as the mail order birds, but hopefully the breeding stock went to people who will breed them and eventually show them.

I brought about 20 pairs in total from my breeding stock, Black Cochin bantams, White Leghorn bantams, BB Red and Black OEG bantams, and large Amerucana. I was sold out in one hour. I could have sold many many more but the stock I have at home are still to young to know how good or bad they are to feel confident to sell them as breeders. Of course the real good ones don't come to the sale.

As I said before each to their own but If you wish to improve your stock buy from breeders.

I have been reading everyones responses with interest. It’s such a good question, and this topic has not really been talked about in detail on here before. I haven’t responded before now because I’ve been having a lot of trouble deciding HOW to respond.

I have a great deal of respect and admiration for those top breeders that consistently produce show winners. It’s obvious you must have great dedication to your chosen breeds in order to stay in the game year after year.

During this past year in particular I’ve been inspired by one expert breeder whom I’ve come to know well. He has been encouraging me in my goal to produce a line of excellent quality birds that, if managed well, would allow me to fit into Sebas49's definition of “Breeder”.
But I’m also a bit worried about going there. It seems there is a turning point where you leave behind some of the flexibility that goes along with being a seller/fancier. You must become committed to producing a certain level of excellence and cater to a more savvy buyer with high expectations. Generally, this means you would not be selling eggs or chicks, but growing out all of your offspring in order to assess them as adults. Then you would keep back the best for yourself and sell some birds to other breeders. All very exciting and a very worthwhile endeavor.
But what’s making me hesitate is that Id still like to provide useful, productive chickens that are affordable for those with ordinary backyard flocks. I guess I want it all, and having a hard time choosing a path.
So, at this point, wondering how I might fit into these categrories is maybe to concentrate on one special line and become a serious breeder of that line, but remain more of a fancier in other varieties. But this might take more space and resources than I have available. We’ll see how it all plays out!

KathyS, I hear you. I may consider myself a breeder of Black Cochin Bantams and a couple of other breeds but that's it. I like to dabble, there's that word again, in other breeds also. I will play around with them, raise some good numbers and keep a few of them. If I don't like what I see after a few years I will try to introduce new blood and go from there. If that does not work either I will then sell out and move on to something else and try that for a while, but in the mean time the Black Cochins, OEG, and Leghorns still takes my time to produce good offspring that I will only keep a hand full of in the end. I cull heavy to keep the quality to where I like it.

For example I play around with Brown Red Amerucanas, some are not bad but lots are bad in color. I sell them off as backyard green egg layers and try again next year.

Sebas49 wrote:CynthiaM, you are right on with your comments. Normally auction or community sale, as you mentioned, are birds that are not top show quality stock. Anyone who wishes to improve their stock and buy good quality will not find them at auction and community sales. You need to buy at a show or breeders sale.

The CHB sales on Saturday was to be more of a breeders sale but didn't really work out that way. Yes, there were people who were selling good breeding stock but there was also lots of mail order birds that were just for keepers or buyer/sellers. The breeding stock was the same price as the mail order birds, but hopefully the breeding stock went to people who will breed them and eventually show them.

I brought about 20 pairs in total from my breeding stock, Black Cochin bantams, White Leghorn bantams, BB Red and Black OEG bantams, and large Amerucana. I was sold out in one hour. I could have sold many many more but the stock I have at home are still to young to know how good or bad they are to feel confident to sell them as breeders. Of course the real good ones don't come to the sale.

As I said before each to their own but If you wish to improve your stock buy from breeders.

I dissagree with you Rico. This sale was not to be a sale for show breeders, it was to be a sale for everyone. We are hoping to bring out more breeders and offer better quality. We started with only crossbreds and mail order birds avaiable. We have put a lot of effort into getting breeders, such as yourslef, to make quality birds available. If a person cannot get birds from a breeder, then I cannot blame then for going to a hatchery and ordering birds. If there are no exhibition quality birds available wha else are they supposed to do?

We have come leaps and bounds from where we were just 2 years ago with regards to the quality of container, the quality of sale, and the quality of bird. We are very happy that breeders have started coming out and selling birds to noobies and hobbiests. It has taken long enough and a lot of work on our part to get the knowledgeable exhibition breeders to come forward. We hope to see more in the future.

You said that you were sold out in an hour. Well there you go. The demand is there. You were not prepared for the people hoping for an exhibition quality bird. Theya re out there. So where would these people get thier birds? From thier second choice, and that may be from a mail order shipment. After all, that is what is available.

The purebred heritage poultry fancy was nearly wiped out in Alberta. There were only a couple of shows in ALberta, and nothing was centrally located. It is going to take time to rebuild the fancy. We have started, the first groups of exhibition quality birds are getting out to the public. They are learning what to look for.

CHB is for everyone. Everyone is welcome.

I would like to know, how many people with booths at the show had only SOP exhibition quality birds for sale. These would be birds with no hatchery bloodlines, just birds from pure chicken show bloodlines?

I am sorry I missed the sale but I was too sick to attend. I guess in a way, I wouldn't have been welcomed there by people who are the SOP breeders elite because my stock is all hatchery bought from Performance, McMurray, and Ideal.

I guess my bad, I should have bought from a breeder of SOP stock. However, back when I started becoming serious about wanting to raise purebred birds back in 2009, no one who lived around my area had the breeds I wanted, houdan and polish. When I found SOP breeders and tried to contact them, many of them wouldn't even give me the time of day. The ones who did usually said they didn't sell their stock.

I agree that if I could buy stock from a breeder, I would love to! However, most SOP breeders don't give people like me the time of day.

I agree 100% with the CHB mandate of promoting and preserving purebred stock. I don't see anything that says "Hatchery Purebreds are excluded." Even the APA/ABA while idealy would like people to purchase stock from breeders, it does not discriminate purebreds if they come from a hatchery.

If the CHB wants to exclude people like me, then you can have my membership back and stick it. You are not the club or people I wish to associate.

One last thing. Anyone who complained about the dyed silkies being "BAD" for CHB's image, needs to come off their high horse. All the dyed silkies did was make people smile and kids laugh.

Samantha

I agree 100% with the CHB mandate of promoting and preserving purebred stock. I don't see anything that says "Hatchery Purebreds are excluded." Even the APA/ABA while idealy would like people to purchase stock from breeders, it does not discriminate purebreds if they come from a hatchery.

hmmmmmm try to find a purebred that comes from a hatchery that will win at a big aba or apa show...

cornel wrote:
I agree 100% with the CHB mandate of promoting and preserving purebred stock. I don't see anything that says "Hatchery Purebreds are excluded." Even the APA/ABA while idealy would like people to purchase stock from breeders, it does not discriminate purebreds if they come from a hatchery.

hmmmmmm try to find a purebred that comes from a hatchery that will win at a big aba or apa show...

That isn't the point.
The point is the elitist attitude SOP breeders have in saying that hatchery purebred stock is not welcomed.

I agree that not all hatcherys that sell purebred stock is fit for exhibition. Not all SOP bred birds are either. Also not all SOP bred birds win either, cornel.

For the record, I know of many hatchery bred birds that have won at APA/ABA shows. However, not all of us showing birds are doing it for the win.

hatchery purebred stock: hard to find, just as the hatchery advertises as a purebred doesnt make it a purebred.
hatchery bred birds that have won: anything over best of breed at a big show?
Also not all SOP bred birds win either, cornel: no, but they have a much higher chance of winning
However, not all of us showing birds are doing it for the win: i dont show for the win, i show for the competition and to see if my birds are up to par.
you say that the apa doesnt discriminate against it: no? with the standard of perfection they are discriminating against 99% of hatchery birds. try to find a hatchery bird that doesnt have any of the defects listed under the breed.

I have contacted many SOP Breeders looking for several breeds I am interested in. Only one responded and that person did not have any stock at the time. The others did not respond. Perhaps they were too busy. Perhaps they had nothing for me. Perhaps they could not be bothered with me.

I have some SOP birds from some breeders but other breeds that I am interested in can only be found through hatcheries. So what do I do? Buy where I can and try to improve what I have with what I have got. It is a long road, let me tell you, lined with the culls that do not make the grade.

Hatcheries are where many people start with purebreds. It is how they get into the fancy. They test the waters and see if chickens are right for them. Then if showing chickens is their goal, (and believe it or not, showing and breeding to the SOP is not and should not be the only goal of chicken raising, ) then they can begin their search for stock that will lead them to their goal.

So to answer Arctic's question, I had some SOP birds for sale. Some were bought before they even got out of the truck, some I took home. I also had purebreds that you could show, but would not be competitive. I also had some lovely EEs that are part of a project I am working on. Perfect for those just looking for a few layers. Hardy out crossed birds. I also donated the dyed silkies to the silent auction. They were also present at the last CHB show, dressed in full bedazzled regalia. I had planned to sell them but thought they would raise a little excitement at the bidding table so I donated them. BTW, in case you did not know, they are actually white, an accepted SOP color

So Arctic, mark me down as one who did not have only SOP birds. I am also a CHB member.

Actually Cornel, may of the top breeders in the US sell to mcMurray etc, especially towards the end of the year. There are regular testimonials of hatechery birds dong well at shows, and I can attest that quite a few of the birds that have won in Alberta are straight from the hatchery or at least 1st generation.

So lets look at the definition of heritage breeds with regards to keeper, dabbler, fancier, breeder etc.
the Heritage breeds came about predominantly for either production of something, or by genetic isolation.

If a person is breeding a heritage breed, such as say the Chanticler, for its original perpose, as a hardy dual bird, and the birds fit the description set by the SOP, would someone who breeds birds that are great producers but not top exhibition quality be just a fancier compared to someone who bred top SOP birds that are not good layers, or do not have as good a feed to meat conversion ratio?

As a Heritage breed flock owner, which is the breeder and which is the fancier? Could it be both?

cornel wrote:hatchery purebred stock: hard to find, just as the hatchery advertises as a purebred doesnt make it a purebred.
hatchery bred birds that have won: anything over best of breed at a big show?
Also not all SOP bred birds win either, cornel: no, but they have a much higher chance of winning
However, not all of us showing birds are doing it for the win: i dont show for the win, i show for the competition and to see if my birds are up to par.
you say that the apa doesnt discriminate against it: no? with the standard of perfection they are discriminating against 99% of hatchery birds. try to find a hatchery bird that doesnt have any of the defects listed under the breed.

Again, you are missing the point of what I am trying to convy. This is not an arguement of whether hatchery birds are better or worse than SOP bred birds. If you want to have the arguement, then I suggest we start a new topic just on that.

The point I am trying to make is it is easy to say buy from a breeder but it isn't easy to do so. For the majority of beginers, their first purebreds come from a hatchery. Most will never have the desire to enter a show. Then there are those like me who learned there was an APA show close to where I live. The 3 Old Hens who sponsored that show said all that mattered was that the birds entered have to be purebred. What interested me and why I chose that show was they said it was a good chance to bring my hatchery stock to have evaluated by a credited APA judge.

I paid my fees and took my birds in and made Champions Row with my houdan rooster. The judge even argued with me after the judging that the bird couldn't have been hatchery stock, but I assured him that my bird was from Performance.

The last 2 shows I did, I showed my first bred birds. Birds I could not have bred otherwise if it were not for hatchery stock. Are the SOP? Not yet. Have they took top prizes? No, but one was in the running for Best of Show. I am very proud of my boys and how well they do, with the public. I have more people talking to me about the beauty of my houdans and polish and who have become interested in learning more about these breeds. If the judges like my birds, hey that's good also.

I take shows with my hatchery birds just as seriously as any SOP breeder does. I respect what they do for the breed and for the hobby. Just too bad that SOP breeders don't feel the same towards people like myself who show hatchery purebreds.