Experience breeder question

Ok I've been trying to decide on what to do about this young cockerel I have been growing out. I love everything about this young cockerel he is stunning in every way except he has a DQ fault. I'm torn between using him in my breeding program or culling him out. Now the breed variety that I'm working with does not have a lot out there to chose from and most stock is of not great quality. 
Question A. Should I try him and see if he can produce me something of his quality without DQ fault. Of course using hens free of this fault. However these hens could also carry the fault and not be expressing it. I believe it is a recessive gene. 
B. Not breed him because that fault could be expressed in next generation and so on causing more of a headache. 
C. I could use a different cockerel of lesser quality that doesn't express the fault but is just blah and try and breed up from there. 
I'm not looking at a short term project here and know I have a long road a head on this variety.  
Any insight would be greatly appreciated.   
Oh the joys of breeding and genetics!

Give the 1st guy a try. If it doesn't work, you have lots of chicken in your freezer. One of the benefits of upgrading.

What is the DQ he has? Some are more heavily controlled by genetics than others. Some are more easily bred out. We have some very experienced people here who could help you, knowing the breed and the fault.

I had been struggling with this as well.  I have a stunning Splash Orpington cockerel.  His only fault I can see is a side sprig on his comb.  Because of that he is on the Freezer Camp list.  As hard as it is I made the choice to cull anything that is not as close to SOP as possible.  I am watching the handful of related birds for any sign of it.  I will not sell chicks or  hatching eggs from these birds for a couple of generations...... possibly never.  I may cull them all.  It is breaking my heart but I am trying to improve the breed and variety.  Maybe it is something that can easily be bred out or maybe it will keep popping up in the future.... I just don't know.    

Like Sue suggested some faults are harder than others to breed out... I just don't have the dedication it takes to figure that all out

Sometimes you have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water. You need to weigh the loss of the positive traits with the trouble you will have with the negative traits.

Sometimes, too, you don't have much of a choice. When I started with Houdans they all had duck feet...a DQ. I couldn't throw them all out, so I bred what I had, kept the best feet, bred again, kept even better feet, etc, etc.

I agree with you as well Sue.
I'm dealing with what I believe to be vulture hock on this boy. Everything else about him I like. I do have his 1/2 brother as well and he is showing no signs of vulture hock but is half the boy this guy is. His size alone is impressive. Many things about him comform to the SOP I'm so torn with him. I believe he could bring so many good traits to his offspring minus the vulture hock. There are many things that I need to improve upon in this variety SL cochins. This will be my first year breeding them.
I have 20 chicks coming in from two different people to try and pick the best of best out of them to add into the program.

Echo in the case of your Orpington I personally would not use him as things like this will always come back to haunt you especially in the case of side sprigs. If not in the first generation almost for sure in the next. Just my opinion.

Heather

Vulture hocks are VERY hard to eliminate. They also seem more prominent in boys. It seems to me that the girls may not be exhibiting it, but if they are related to the male, they probably have a perpensity to produce it.

If you have a brother without it I would keep them both, set up two breeding pens, mark the offspring and see who produces what.

I agree I'm seeing it on the boys more. That is a good idea Sue! This vulture hock is a very tricky and sucky thing. Its to bad it has popped up so much in the lines just like the duck feet you speak of. Sad people breeding for quantity not qualiity so frustrating. This is why I want to improve the breed and breed some quality back into this variety. 
I may have to wait one more breeding season as I don't have enough hens for both boys.

vulture hocks are a simple recessive, single locus trait, symbol "v". The non-vulture allele is "V". Your vulture hocked boy is genotype vv, and all his offspring would carry the allele.  Only way to find out for sure if the half-brother is VV or Vv (i.e. whether he carries a single copy of the v allele or none) is to mate him to a vulture hocked female. If any of the offspring has vulture hocks, he's Vv. If none, then he's VV.

That is interesting, IPF. I have a couple observations that don't fit into that equation. Firstly, my observation that every male I produced one year had VH but none of the females did. Secondly, VH does not seem to be an all or nothing trait. I have had it bad and I have had it mild. The black boy I have how does have a few stiff feathers, but not enough to disqualify hime at a show. In fact he won his variety at the last show.

Vulture hock can be a tough fix, especially if it's deeply set in the line. But when working with a rare breed or variety, genetic diversity is so important - probably more so than limiting yourself to using only the most correct breeders. You say he is stunning in other ways, so there is no question he has lots of good traits to pass along. I would use him. Mark the chicks from him, use good record keeping and raise lots of his offspring if you can. If you get even one good bird from the mix without vulture hock, you've made great progress. Of course you'll have many that won't make the grade. But thats the way to capture those wonderful traits you want and keep them in your flock for future generations.

I also agree with Heather about not using the Orpington with side sprigs. There are many people breeding very good quality blue and Splash Orpingtons without faults, so you can afford to be quite selective in what you are using in your breeding program.

You're right Sue, things are seldom as simple as postulated, and there are probably modifier genes at work. Hard to explain your expression by sex. What numbers are we talking here? 10 chicks? 20? 50? 100?
The main gene, at the v locus, is apparently autosomal though.

Thank you Heather and Kathy. Your confirmation of my decision makes me feel better. I had already decided to send him to freezer camp because of the side sprig, I want to breed good quality birds. The pullets from his line are going into my laying group...no breeding for these girls.

ipf wrote:You're right Sue, things are seldom as simple as postulated, and there are probably modifier genes at work. Hard to explain your expression by sex. What numbers are we talking here? 10 chicks? 20? 50? 100?
The main gene, at the v locus, is apparently autosomal though.

About 30 chicks, IPF. Your information gives me hope that I can get past this issue, though. Thank-you.

Thank you all for your insight. 
I will give it a go with him and see what results I end up with. If anything it will be a good learning experience and Kathy your right if I end up with just one that is just as nice as him without VH it will be successful. I will keep good record of what progress I make. I plan on having a few breeding pens going for them with different lines.

Echo 1 wrote:Thank you Heather and Kathy.  Your confirmation of my decision makes me feel better.  I had already decided to send him to freezer camp because of the side sprig, I want to breed good quality birds.  The pullets from his line are going into my laying group...no breeding for these girls.

Decisions like this also are partially decided based on the availability of of good quality stock. I have seen lovely Orpingtons and you can probably afford to be choosy.

Buff the most important thing you must remember is that everyone of this birds chicks should be permanently marked coming out of the incubator to ensure that not even one gets by you or it may set you back big time. This should not be done with bands food coloring or the like as color fades and bands can be lost. You don't mention the breed but if you have another choice I would go that way. I have a couple rare breeds and I have culled stunning males for smaller problems, so I would look around or permanently mark and be prepared to cull. Happy breeding

Heather

Thank you Heather I understand what you are saying. 
Im working on the standard SL cochin. I went out and checked the boys over again this morning. The 1/2 borther has a few stiff feathers in there but by no means do I think he has VH the other one defently has VH in my opinion. 
My question is if the 1/2 brother does not express the VH and does carry the gene and i breed him with VH free hens will their offspring be free of the VH as well? Or will they be carriers and just not express it? I know IPF said I can breed him with a VH hen and it should tell me if he's a carrier or not. 
This fault must be deep into some lines. If I'm understanding this correctly. 
Now I think I my just use the other boy.

If you cross him with VH-free hens and he is a carrier, then half of the offspring will be carriers, but none should display VH.

One thing that I have learned in my years of breeding poultry and waterfowl is usually my first instinct about the future of any given bird is for the most part is usually the right one. I would say if you are questioning in your mind using a particular bird in your breeding pens especially in a breed where you have access to other birds follow those instincts. Hope this makes sense

Heather