QUIT SELLING CHICKENS!

Thanks to ChicoryFarm I'm all fired up again about a topic that gets my blood boiling; The insultingly low price that people expect to pay for a chicken. It's maddening. But it's we the chicken producers who are to blame.

SO someone doesn't want to pay $25 for a pullet? Time to educate the public who want to stuff their uneducated faces at our expense. No more, I say! It is time to QUIT SELLING HENS! What you are selling is not a whole bird. No no no. What yo uare selling is a percentage share of future egg value.

The average hen will lay 225 then 175 then 100 eggs over three years. (a conservative ballpark guess) That's 475 eggs = 39 dozen eggs. At the low end of $3 a dozen, those eggs are worth $118. At the HIGH end, if you can get organic, free range, yoga practicing, yogurt eating prices, you might get $6 a dozen which is 39 dozen x $6 = $234 in egg production!

So, your pullet will generate and income of between $118 and $234.

I say a bird should be priced at half her potential lifetime egg value, conservatively speaking that hen will sell for $59, (half of $118). If you are selling to the organic growers who want $6 a dozen for their eggs, then you want $117 for that hen. The buyer should, with a little creative marketing, be able to make his investment back plus a profit of the same. IT's a win win for everyone!

So you see Chicory, explain this to your buyer and they would be FOOLS not to see that anything that has this much ability to produce FOOD and a saleable product, is worth at least $25. If the general public thinks chickens are worthless, it's because we the people who raise chickens think they are too. If we want to change that, WE have to be the change!

Well said, Uno!

I often get emails asking for point of lay birds. One person, who has contacted me several times, asked "So should I just give up?" I explained to her that it simply isn't worth my while to feed them for an extra 3 months after I can tell who is who, only to sell them for $5 more. It costs a lot more then that in feed, never mind my time and effort, housing requirements, bedding, etc. People do not want to pay $30 for a POL pullet! It's horrendous and one of the reasons I prefer to sell chicks - here you go, you see how much work it is!

I hear you all and feel much the same way about many of my livestock - but here's a question: at the end of the summer I do a cull of birds, getting rid of any that are not up to the standards I want in my breeding birds.

Now on this very forum there are threads about buying birds that are not up to standard - birds represented as a breed but not meeting the Standard or even basic chicken standards or health>

Some of my birds may have a crooked toe or two, or the incorrect comb for the breed, or the wrong colour or too narrow a body, wrong coloured legs - or eggs... shall I go on? Not ill or diseased or disabled - just not great representatives of their breed.

What's wrong with selling them as an ordinary chickens to people who want a laying bird or any old rooster, but don't care about breed, for $10?

I HAVE enough meat birds!!

Clearly I cannot sell them as full price good quality representatives of their breed.

Heda, I am sure I have an intelligent response to your valid point. I will mull it over while I do some drinking and then get back to you.

I am where Heda is at, especially with my breeding project going. I have mutt birds galore (albeit pretty ones this go-round!). I will not take less than $10 for roosters and $15 for hens. The rooster price is because thats a fair price for a butchered and dressed bird, organically raised, for that price; the hens are the same concept plus a bit more because they are money makers.

I take a risk at auctions, but the birds I've sold have worked out in my favor. But then, I also don't think there are many chickens worth more than 50-75 bucks on the high end. Really, that money for purchase isn't really made BACK, so much as the blow is lessened as them covering their costs additional costs, IF they do. But then, my practicality for the concept of money is entirely abstract and different than most. I can definitely see trading a cow for say, 2 dozen healthy, young hens of laying age. That makes sense in my brain.

Is it that there are enough people out there that should recognize that what we are selling as "" Great Stock"" is just that ? Or are we expecting everyone to see that we have something that is worth the money we are asking ? I think that there are more people out there who just view a chicken as a chicken ? regardless of breed / color etc etc .It's a hard sell when someone isn't in the loop as it were in regards to breeds that they are looking at .I've sent hords ( Lots ) of Roosters to the auction because I couldn't sell then for ten bucks ! They were pure breed , beautiful and full grown and heavy etc , but everyone just saw a Rooster ? I got more at the auction because I got lucky and someone actually knew what the breed was ( I told the auctioneer to tell everyone what they were )and gave me a reasonable price .I think that if you advertise speciality chickens then you need to add to the post that only people serious about speciality birds need to inquire .........my thoughts

Good points.

I sell many of my cull birds to people who have a mixed flock of free ranging birds - no breeds in particular, fairly constant predation. They aren't keeping pure breeds and don't expect a bird to last for that long. I wonder if that isn't the majority of chicken owners?

There are always ads at the Feed Store for purebred roosters for $5 - "to a good home" - hoping they won't be butchered I guess? Doesn't look like a lot of takers. Some friends keep hens for eggs but never a rooster - too much trouble they say.

Culled Hens, that are not up to standard , are still a laying hen. A Rooster that is not perfect for the Standard , are still good meat birds . They all cost the same to feed .
So Why are they not worth the same as a laying hen , or butchered bird .
Weird how I see this quit often ,even at the sales ,. where laying hens ,. go for more money than a specific bred of hen . All the hens lay eggs ... I mean the laying Hens were made to lay an egg every day ,and maybe a special breed won't . But A laying hen may not live as long , and be in the soup pot too . The value put on chickens is exactly what you make it .

Hmmm, intelligent response..intelligent response....

Sweetened, was it you who said a chicken might not earn her own keep?

I think if someone wants to buy a chicken so it will lay eggs, but they don't want to pay much for the chicken since she won't earn her own keep, then DON'T buy a chicken and just buy your eggs and shut up. If that hen is producing something that you stuff in your face to ward off hunger and if one day you can stuff the chicken in your face then she has MORE than earned her keep and the burden we place on a hen to provide us eggs AND earn her keep is unreasonable and sexist. It's taxation at an unfair and impossible rate. Not to mention the babies she may produce to replace herself. Earn her keep? There is no animal in the barnyard you can invest in for so little and gain back such an output. A chicken is the only livestock you can support in your backyard off table scraps and a minimum of feed. On a city lot! No acres of farmland to produce hay to get a gallon of milk from your monster sized cow. And for this, a hen is worth nothing!?

I find it contradictory for breeders who are trying to develop a superior bird, a bird for which they will expect to be paid a premium, to be the very ones causing a glut on the market offloading their lesser birds. If you have a zillion birds but can't afford to dispose of them at no profit, if you must get $5 a bird to offset the cost of your hobby, then you can't afford your hobby. If you knowingly create waste birds, then let them be waste. Dead. In the bush. No money in your pocket. But if they are alive and have value, then demand that value. IT seems an ironic stab in the back that when I want to buy one of your wonder birds for my yard, you will want $80 for a breeding pair. But I can't get $20 for a pullet because you sell your culls for $5 a piece. There is a hypocrisy here.

If we all get together and agree on a set price to sell a pullet at, then we will be a cartel. And I am opposed to those too. Next the Mafia will show up and want a piece of the action and people and chickens will end up with busted knees and missing fingers. So...I do not have the answer. I just think if we pay more for a dog, who produces nothing but poop, chewed shoes and holes in the lawn, than we do for something that feeds our family, we are fools.

Putting a fair price on a hen is an ongoing dilemma. One I've struggled with too.
I totally agree with Uno that we, as breeders tend to sell too cheap and create this problem. Here's a common scenario:

Breeder spends half the year growing out chicks.

Suddenly it is harvest season, cute little chicks are big and taking up lots of room!

Breeder takes inventory and sees a bunch of chickens that are not useful for his/her own breeding plans. time to sell the extras!

There's a glut in the market because everyone has excess chickens which they don't want to(or can't) overwinter. So they select the keepers and basically give away the extras at $18 or $20.00 each to get them out of the coop.


I know how this happens because I've been there.

I've made some changes in how I do things. I have a list of people waiting patiently for point of lay pullets at good fair prices. Any extra cockerels are highly valued and will be butchered to feed our family.

I really think the answer is in planning. When you set those eggs under the hen, or place them in the incubator do you have a plan for the chicks? Do we need to be more responsible for the numbers of chicks we produce to ensure we will have homes or uses for them? Rather like letting cats breed freely and overrun your farm, don't you think?

Wow, KathyS. If you can get $18 or $20 for a point of lay waste bird, you are doing very well indeed! I think most of us in this area of the country would be happy as a clam to get that much for any of our birds! I have taken my 'surplus' birds to the auction where I get the whopping sum of $2 a bird! Now, since it costs me more to drive them to the auction than someone will pay me, I chop their heads off and throw them in the bush.

ALso, and this is a quirk that I have no explanation for, I would be happy to sell a bird, for say $10, to someone who was happy and thrilled to get that bird, rather than someone who tells me they can get it cheaper somewhere else. Then GO somewhere else, you tool, and might I suggest a few more places you can go too! I feel the Canadian eating public are a stupid bunch for the most part who think food is their right and not a huge privilege. I will not knowingly provide food to people who think I owe it to them. Because I sure as hell do not. Nor does my chicken. If she lives in your little hut with cold floors and poor ventilation and works her heart out to lay eggs for you, bless each egg that you get because there are people on this planet who have none! So to tell me you can buy a chicken cheaper somewhere else tells me you have zero respect or value for the gift this animal is and I feel she is better off swiftly killed and hurled in the bush than in your thankless hands.

Oh now we are into the fine points. Yes, you are right Uno, the people I sell my culls to tend to be friends and neighbours delighted to have a bird in good shape and not pay and arm and a leg for it. I am happy because a nice bird (almost all my birds are nice) gets a second chance at life and being free range with various birdy companions quite a happy life for a while longer.

$2 is just offensive. All the same I am against wasting the chicken's life by killing it and throwing it in the bushes. I never need money that much. I'd rather pay for a little extra feed, keep the bird a little longer and look a little harder for another home for it. I don't need to feed any more foxes or ravens!

The people that buy cull birds from me have ZERO interest in chicken breeds. I don't feel I'm cannibalizing my purebred sales at all, but what I am doing is eating into my summer egg sales, as they now already have eggs and won't need to buy from me.

I see my market as being completely segmented - those who want the best example of my breeds and will be upset by incorrect coloured legs or incorrect combs and those who just want a chicken - hen or rooster - that will do the minimum a chicken should do.

I don't butcher my own chickens so taking birds to the butcher has a cost which if a bird is older or skinnier is difficult to justify.

And I don't go out to advertise these birds, they are quietly sold to people who have asked if I ever have cull birds....

Heda, chopping heads and tossing in the bush is something I have wondered about too. Is it a waste of a life?

As for feeding coyotes and other critters, my reality is that they arrive here anyway and take the bird I DON'T want taken. It's not like they don't know I'm here. My thinking is a little medieval, like sacrificing the young maiden to the dragon to keep the village safe. I would rather have FULL predators in the forest than hungry ones. But the truth is they know where my hen house is and I am constantly, CONSTANTLY losing birds (lost two yesterday!)

As for the waste part...as far as the chicken is concerned, dead is dead. If you ask him, will you be happier dead and eaten or dead and tossed, he will answer, neither! So it's not like eating him makes him feel any better about having his head chopped off.

Worse than $2 at the auction being an insult, I have often felt very uneasy about the life/death my birds were about to meet. I had some roosters purchased by leather clad, bearded, tattooed biker types and (stereotyping) I thought hmm...will these boys die cut to pieces in a cock fighting pit? I have sold birds to people who handle them like they are already a carcass, with crude and careless detachment, it's just a piece of meat. Yank, grab, toss. So Heda, the waste is of my time to raise them, my money to feed them, but I feel a good life at my place, and a swift, clean death is a blessing. Because I don't think that a bird you can get for $2 is a bird you are going to care about very much. A GOOD death is very important to me and the only way I can guarantee that is deliver the bird dead, or kill my own culls and release them to the 'circle of life'. Good LIFE and good DEATH are my animal keeping philosophy and if I can't guarantee both, nope, won't go there.

Besides, I ate a surplus rooster once. The coyotes can have them!

I usually don't have much for sale. For one I haven't had enough born here to sell extras. Any birds I don't feel are good enough in my not so expert opinion are frozen to feed my dogs. To me a bird is more valuable as dog food than 5 or 10 dollars. When I do sell any it is not for cheap. I have tried very hard to get good stock. It has come from quite a distance. Last fall I sold my silkie chicks for 20.00 a piece unsexed. If they didn't sell I was going to keep the hens for brooding and eat the roosters myself. (all I need is that sized bird as I live alone) As it was they all sold. Even though I am relatively new to breeding them I know that my birds are a good if not better quality bird than is seen here. I even was talked into selling an older chick for 25.00 that I was planning to keep but it was going to a lady who lived in the city and needed a hen .She is just a spoilt pet who gets taken to the cabin every weekend with the husband and who is building her a princess coop! I also sold one of my dark brahma hens for 45.00 She laid well and if anybody wanted her they had to pay that price. Chicken people around here know I feed raw to my dogs so if they bring alot of roosters to the sale and they don't sell they sometimes give them to me which is appreciated and an act that I will repay.
I don't like auctions. You either don't get what your bird is worth or end up paying way more than the bird is worth. I have seen birds at our auction that I would be embarrassed to send . I saw a few roosters that looked like they were ran over by a bus. Hens with no feathers. I took 3 birds to our clubs auction this year. A white silkiie rooster that I didn't need, a rosecomb hen I had no mate for and my last brahma hen. Will try them some again sometime inthe future. The roo got 10.00 the rosecomb 15.00 and the brahma 35.00. I only took them to support the club. There I saw a pair of what was supposed to be Buff Orpingtons. They looked more like a buff colored lakenvelders (size and shape) nothing like an orpington. The lady said thats what was sold to her an orpingtons. She bought them locally. I happened to have the SOP in my truck and showed her what they are supposed ot be like. I am hoping to have a few good quality orpingtons to sell this fall. But they won't be sold to just anyone, they will have to go to someone who wants to improve the breed. If not then they stay here. Hope this makes sense got to go make coffee.
Instead of cutting the heads off and throwing in the bush try selling them as dog food. Killed with the feathers on for a set price. Can't get any easier.
Geri

Good post, Rasilon, and good suggestion about selling for dog food. At least there is no concern about the treatment of the birds while alive. You know if you are doing the final deed, it is done well and humanely.

uno wrote:Wow, KathyS. If you can get $18 or $20 for a point of lay waste bird, you are doing very well indeed! I think most of us in this area of the country would be happy as a clam to get that much for any of our birds! I have taken my 'surplus' birds to the auction where I get the whopping sum of $2 a bird! Now, since it costs me more to drive them to the auction than someone will pay me, I chop their heads off and throw them in the bush.

If young healthy pullets are selling at auctions for $2.00, the situation is much worse than I imagined. I don't attend regular auctions, so I may be out of the loop. I do happily save back good pairs, trios or hens to sell at our POAA auction sales. The buyers for the most part know what they are looking for and are willing to pay well for that. On average I will get more for my birds at that auction than I would have asked if selling them off the farm, and at those prices I know they are going to homes where they will be appreciated.


Just one other comment I feel compelled to make...I do not consider any of my chickens "waste" birds. Any that hatch with splayed legs or other serious problems are put down quickly within a day or 2 after hatching. Any that I keep and grow out are all good for something, be that breeding, egg layers or meat birds.

uno wrote:Sweetened, was it you who said a chicken might not earn her own keep?

Quite the contrary, Miss Uno. I think my girls more than pull their weight around here, except on the mouse issue. Really, there are two things in this world right now that I think are worth their weight in gold, product wise, and those are Dandelions and chickens.

Chickens produce exponential (hmm.. this is familiar) amounts of manure and compost, provide tilling services, control the pest population, produce eggs and meat and even thin out some weeds on occasion. Dandelions, in todays world of toxins, are plentiful and useful in saving out very lives as a food and a medicine. Steven Harrod Buhner wrote (and I'm paraphrasing) in his book 'The Lost Language of Plants' that he sees a correlation in the prevalence of dandelions with the amount of chemicals and toxins we take in on a daily basis.

Anyway. Economics dictates the value of a good is exactly what the population will pay for it. I think it was Succellus who said if we stop buying it, they stop farming it. You can think your purebred chicken is worth $80, but if the general population doesn't agree, then you get to keep your $80 chicken and make no money rather than the $35 or $50 someone offered you. You can think your purebred poodle (sorry, for poodle lovers/breeders) who does nothing but yap all day, isnt used as a bird dog, who can't protect you from that intruder, and has a attendance to be nippy is worth $1200, but someone else might look at my mixed breed dogs and value them more for their protection, calm demeanor and usefulness, despite the fact that I'm charging waaaay less. Usefulness, value to the market and so on are what deem the cost worth of anything.

I will NEVER knowingly sell a rooster at an auction again. I got $2, $3, and $5 respectfully last fall for them and I won't let that happen again. The unfortunate truth is very few people value the small farm, let alone big ag food on their table. Organic farmers know they're marketting to a richer crowd or people who are willing to go bankrupt to buy organic food and they don't care. They will care when people put their foot down after the concept of exponential farming hits main stream.

I love you to death, Uno, you know that But I just disagree with you here.

I am sure my opinion will not be popular on this. I do need to state that I have not sold anything at an auction nor have I purchased any livestock personally at an auction, nor have I been to a livestock auction. So, as far as that goes, I can not comment. How ever, I do have a question, why do you sell at an auction? I do understand it is a personal choice and everyone has their own reason, just curious why you personally sell there if you do.

As for selling of chickens. I sell my POL for $20-$25. I sell my chicks for $7 at day old. I have my prices on my website. I invite people that want to purchase birds from me to come see mine. They stay outside my fences, but are welcome to see all the stock. I have people around here that have chickens and say they cant sell them at all and others that say they cant keep enough to sell. I sell my birds according to what I think that bird is worth to me. If it is one I believe is the closest to standard that I have, then I wont sell it. If it is close, but I have better, believe me, you will be paying for it. Normally, I do not actually have chicks for sale as I prefer to grow them out to see what they will become and then choose what birds to keep. What I dont want I have three choices. I keep it for a laying hen as I never have enough eggs to sell, eat it, or sell it. When I sell my birds I dont haggle on it. I know it is worth the asking price and if you arent interested you can go somewhere else. I know this sounds conceded, but it really isnt. I know if the birds dont sell they save me purchasing a chicken to eat at the store, or purchasing dog food, or I can sell it for someone else to eat.

My honest opinion is most livestock is worth more then most will sell for. I would rather feed a bird to my dogs, cats, or the coyotes then to sell it for less then I believe it is worth.

My chicken club holds an auction every year. I put in the three birds I did to support the club. They make a percentage off the total sales. I could have advertised all three but decided to sell them at the auction to support the club. The silkie rooster could have ended up in the freezer, the rosecomb out at my daughters running around and I could have kept the one lone brahma hen but she wiould have been taking up a pen as I don't mix my breeds. SH eis now layign for someone else.
Geri

Here's some interesting info to add to the lot. A good friend of ours down in the Vancouver area of BC (where backyard chicken keeping is legal in the burbs) just paid $35 each for 3 undersized, lice-infested Barred Rocks.......

I do think it is us in the country, buyer AND seller, who need an attitude shift. My friend didn't blink an eye at that price. And when he arrived to pick them up they were all boxed up ready to go, sight unseen and full of lice......$35 a bird!

BTW, great info on this thread and the one I started looking for Uno's thread. Let's 'chicken up' as Higgins might say (opposed to 'man up') and ask for what they're really worth.

pfarms wrote:How ever, I do have a question, why do you sell at an auction? I do understand it is a personal choice and everyone has their own reason, just curious why you personally sell there if you do.

I sell there because I can get, in spring, more than I believe my birds are worth, and I'm not ashamed to say I'll gladly sell to someone who, imho, will overpay. I will not, at this point, ask anything over $30 for a bird, and you'd be lucky to get me to that point.

Value is only what people are willing to pay.

.

This idea of keeping birds for dog food, I am going to have to hear more about this. Do you debone them to feed them raw to the dog or does the dog get it bones and all?

I am flabbergasted at the prices some of you are getting for birds. Good for you! There are ads stuck up at the local feed stores and other places, POL pullets for $6 each. Really? I think that is a crime.

I no longer go to the auction. I have learned my lesson. Alarmed at the buyers and the horrible prices I decided that life here with me, and then a swift death, is not the worst way for a chicken to go. Once gave surplus roos to a buddy who finished them a bit and butchered to discover black skin and flesh and threw them in the bush thinking there was something wrong with them. I TRIED to make my surplus roos useful and they ended up in the bush anyway! Sheesh.

Sweetened, I love you to death too. Are we disagreeing? I don't actually think we are. But I am easily confused. So you might be right.

[quote="uno"]This idea of keeping birds for dog food, I am going to have to hear more about this. Do you debone them to feed them raw to the dog or does the dog get it bones and all?

Hi My dogs eat the bones and all ..raw. WIth my own chickens they eat the whole bird.I dispatch them and freeze them whole with head on and not gutted. They do not need to be bled out as they are going for dog food. To use them I take them out of the freezer thaw enough to pull the skin off, remove wings and head an give the whole bird to the dog. Head usually comes off due to the neck being broken.The best meal, better than store bought chicken which is washed/cleaned. This way they get organs blood and meat and bone. I have been feeding raw to my dogs for 10 years.
Geri

Good idea.

I do like this raw dog food idea. BUt I worry that feeding my dog a dead raw chicken will make him consider helping himself to my live chickens? Could this style of feeding encourage your dog to become a chicken killer? I know it's a long shot, but still..