Porters no longer shipping to Canada

Tara, conservation is not a term open to interpretation due to differences in opinion any more than the term organic is. Yes, there is more than one way to practice conservation just like there is more than one way to practice organic. However, both have hard rules that clearly define the basic fundamentals of each. For example, an organic practice comes with an expectation that the efforts will not include pesticides, chemical ferts, antibiotics, etc.

Likewise, for a practice to have conservation merit, there MUST be a reasonable expectation that the practice will result in the sustainable utilization of the genepool in question. This is not open for interpretation. This is a fact that governs the concept of conservation within the context of this discussion.

While the conservation of Farm Animal Genetic Resources is a global concern, it is a practice that occurs at the local/regional level. Globally (FAO) it is recognized that the best way to conserve our farm animals is for farmers in various regions to maintain those animals best adapted to their particular climate, input availability, markets, and culture.

This is how our overall diversity is protected. Each community does an excellent job with just a few varieties.

The practice of importing stock has absolutely no conservation benefit unless there is a reasonable expectation that the import will have a positive impact on the local region's ability to sustainably maintain it's breeds.

I believe in learning from the past and asking whether the status quo is working. Tara, the frequent importing of exotic lines isn't a new thing, it's been going on for decades. Over these decades, one would have a hard time suggesting that our heritage genepools have improved. It's much easier and safer to suggest the opposite.

We should be able to look around our communities and find genepools that trace back to ones that have been there for several decades. This is the result of sustainable breeding efforts. One would have had an easy time of this 50 years ago. Unfortunately, this is now hard to do. Most genepools we may find won't even trace back a decade in our communities. At least this is the case here on Vancouver Island.

As Frank said, to conserve the breeds, we need to stop importing and start learning how to work with what we have.

The practice of importing stock has absolutely no conservation benefit unless there is a reasonable expectation that the import will have a positive impact on the local region's ability to sustainably maintain it's breeds.


It's statements like this that don't make sense at all.

all turkeys in Canada today, except for the Ridleys were all imported at one time or another.

The practice of importing stock has absolutely no conservation benefit unless there is a reasonable expectation that the import will have a positive impact on the local region's ability to sustainably maintain it's breeds.

I think the statement could mean that if you import just to eat your entire stock in the fall, there is no conservation or sustainability. I wonder how mamy importers actually do this? Personally, I would find a local supplier with hearty meaty birds and avoid all the extra expenses of importation if I was just planning to butcher my birds at the end of the season.

Birds that we have imported are here for the breeding of them
We will eat a few as there always is excess Toms but we will be also keeping alot of toms as their Feathers are used in Native Bustle work and other Native arts

I always got nice Birds from porters and they were healthy with only a few dying after recieving.

Wanted to add Reese does not just raise Bronze turkeys he also has other Variety's
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And Good Shepard Farms is a bunch of farms also that raise them for Good Shepard Farms not just his farm

Uh-oh... gonna get in trouble here, but I have a question. I just looked at the Porter's site and wow! What a lot of beautiful turkeys! However, how many are heritage, and how many are recent color variations that have been bred? Should the recent color patterns be considered Heritage? Heritage of the future perhaps?

I must say I was drooling over those beautiful birds.

Yes he has alot of Colors
Are they Heritage well that is I guess how any one interprets the Word Heritage

According to what it says on the Heritage Turkey Foundation page

Heritage turkeys are defined by the historic, range-based production system in which they are raised. Turkeys must meet all of the following criteria to qualify as a Heritage turkey:

Naturally mating: the Heritage Turkey must be reproduced and genetically maintained through natural mating, with expected fertility rates of 70-80%.

Long productive lifespan: the Heritage Turkey must have a long productive lifespan. Breeding hens are commonly productive for 5-7 years and breeding toms for 3-5 years.

Slow growth rate: the Heritage Turkey must have a slow to moderate rate of growth. Today’s heritage turkeys reach a marketable weight in 26 – 28 weeks, giving the birds time to develop a strong skeletal structure and healthy organs prior to building muscle mass. This growth rate is identical to that of the commercial varieties of the first half of the 20th century.

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So are the New Colors a Heritage Breed In a way no but in a way Yes so it is how people think about it

I have Blacks, Royal Palms, Slates, Red Penciled,Black Penciled, Black Mottled, And blue Royal Palms, and white Hollands
I dont say My Turkeys are Heritage I just say My Turkeys are Turkeys and I say what colors they are
I do no crossing of the colors I keep just the colors with their colors and the variety's with the variety's

Oh I better stop It is getting long
Joe

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It sounds like what we have for stock is what we have for stock in Canada, and if its not entirely true now we can see the writing on the wall. And as far as I am concerned, any bloodstock of birds that is not related to the commercial birds is good blood. there will be people who promote and encourage thier heritage breeds, no matter where they come from, inspiring others to join in breeding and promoting "good" turkeys. Enthisiasm is contageous. The more diversity the better I think. And unfortunately others will discourage new folks by slagging the virtues of everyones birds but their own, and not only drive away interested people but alienate themselves.

Iceman wrote:The practice of importing stock has absolutely no conservation benefit unless there is a reasonable expectation that the import will have a positive impact on the local region's ability to sustainably maintain it's breeds.


It's statements like this that don't make sense at all.

all turkeys in Canada today, except for the Ridleys were all imported at one time or another.

Your understanding of the Ridley is quite incorrect. It is no more Canadian than the Gunter Bronze and the now extinct Rochester Bronze. They all trace back to the same Canadian hatchery. The only differences is that the Gunter and Rochester flocks have been maintained over the decades through selection based upon utilization. Proper and proven conservation methodology. The Ridley was maintained using the academic theory of random selection. An unproven theory that has no practical evidence of conservation value. The most recent form of Ridley I've seen is nothing like what came directly from the university flocks a decade ago. They are now much more like the extinct Rochester bronze. They have obviously been outcrossed (which is a good thing) but the outcross has left them with many of the same challenges one found with the Rochester line. Too top heavy. It will take a knowledgeable person to maintain a fertile flock over several generations. I suspect most small flocks will die off for this reason. Those that figure out how to select fertile males will end up with an excellent Bronze.

Tara, at the recent turkey workshop, bronze was represented by a pair of mine and the balance were labelled as Ridley. Mine looked far more like a wild turkey in stance and profile while the Ridleys on display look like front heavy Rochester birds. Relying too heavily on labels and reputations can only confuse the issue. Likewise, I feel you are misrepresenting Reese's objectives. He appears to be modelling his breeding efforts after the APA SOP as it was written before the appearance of industrial turkeys.



"By all means work with your Van Isle turkeys and in the same sense, allow me to work with ours here."

I think this is exactly what I'm suggesting ... That each region needs to have it's own conservation approach. For exactly the same reasons you suggest.

Tara, you wrote a long post defending your choices, but I don't think I or anyone has challanged your efforts. Individuals don't save breeds, communities do. I have no idea whether your imports have a realistic chance of improving your local community's genepool or not. However, this is a key test and way to evaluate your efforts within the context of conservation. In 50 years, will there be a local heritage turkey market founded by your imports?

And this is where we need to take the discussion if we ever want the concept of conservation to be properly and effectively understood. We need to quit thinking in terms of our personal wants and start objectively considering the individual genepools themselves. If we are not thinking of the impact of today's choices on what will be available within our communities in 50 years, 100 years, etc, then we are not thinking conservation.

We now have witnessed the impact of frequent importation for several decades. For the most part, such imports are not enjoying a sustainable existence. At the same time, local lines that were previously sustained are quickly dissapearing. Yet the broader community is still quick to defend and continue the practice.

I think I've read it somewhere that it is an act of insanity to repeat the same action while hoping for different results.

There was most likly only a few Heritage breeds that truly have ever exsisted in North America and most likly they are in the bronze color scheme as it were .I can except that these as being somewhat the original breed that all other's came from and have become as was said feather colored varieties .If I understand correctly these were bred from heritage birds and as in keeping a breed true in it's blood lines they have to breed true too color ,weight etc .Now as to where the colors came from ( other parts of the world ? ) ? some might have been there ? I am no expert in these matters ,but there must have been some that were lighter in color then the normal bronze that exsists in the wild breeds from which all the other ones were played with till they meet the needs of who ever was trying to get something other then what the Heritage breeds held ? weight ,color ,form etc .I will never say that what I have is a heritage breed ,more so that what I have is a turkey that meets the needs of what I was looking for in both color and weight factors as far as meat value goes .I can understand those that breed for this so called Heritage breed and in that keeping it true to what it was recognized for in the first place ,but that is a personal choice that those who choose to breed them .I consider my breeds rare ,and that is correct because they are ! if they don't meet someones likeing ? then so be it ....we need both kinds and that way we can all be happy .........If it looks like a trurkey ,talks like a turkey ? it must be a turkey

Prairie Dog, talk to most old turkey farmers and they will tend to agree on some basic points.

1) all the varieties descend from the Bronze, and therefore, in a sense, all the varieties exist within the Bronze. For this reason, the Bronze can be used to restore any variety.

2) Either it's a bronze or it isn't. What this means is that it doesn't matter what label is attached, either the bronze reflects the Bronze Standard or it doesn't. Placing value on one label (Ridley) over another is just politics and marketing, but does little to further the genepool, it's conservation, nor our understanding of it.

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Loved this post Higgins Rat
Keep them coming