P.O.A.A Sale

Arcticsun wrote: There is nolonger a large base of purebred fanciers that can support the higher prices. People who know what they want, who are looking for something very very specific will always be willing to pay a high price for something if they truly WANT it. With out the grass roots base of new show bird people, the demand for these birds will remain low, and so will the average price.

Well said, Arctic. I think you've summed it all up neat and tidy right there.

The other side of this is, as Hidden mentioned:

but many many people will just not pay us breeders what we put into our birds. We have to take a step back and start looking at what Fair market value is and what Suggested Retail Price is...I hope you understand what I mean. In this world prices are always driven by supply and demand, not always it there a profit in the things we do.

I took a couple of minutes and had a quick look on Kijiji to see what prices are like currently. For comparison, I copied ads that appear to be young, pure breed hens:

Americana, Buff Brahma or Netherland Leghorn - pretty white cochins. $10 each for roosters and $15 for hens.

White Chantecler pair. Hen and rooster. Approx 6 months old. $30 for pair.
Partridge Chantecler pair. Hen and Rooster. Approx 6 months old. $30 for pair.
One White Chantecler rooster. $10
Take all 5 birds for $50

I have one hundred chickens for sale. 70 rhode island reds and thirty other mixed breeds like Americana and silkies. There are a couple roosters in the group of thirty. Four hundred dollars for all absolutely no partial sales. The rhode island reds are just over a year and the other thirty are five months old and have not started to lay yet

Have a great assortment of breeds-old English, silkie, sebright, japanese, wyandotte, brahma, dorking, bared rock, guinea, frizzle, show girls,and polish All ages and sizes! Lots of pictures $10.00

Getting out of the chicken biz, only five hens left. $12.00 each

3 Blue Laced Red Wyandottes, hatched March 2011
2 Light Sussex x Araucanas, hatched March 2012

That was only one buy/sell site I looked at. Sure, I value my stock higher that this. But as long as there are people selling their young pullets for so little, it makes it hard for the rest of us to aks a fair price for our stock.
I will say I am becoming stubborn on one aspect of pricing...I will refuse to sell a good rooster cheap! They have far more value to our family as food than to give away for $10.00!

I don't make it to any auctions other than the Prairie Ornamental, so I don't know how prices compare at the others. I will keep going to POPWA because it has a great reputation for better quality birds. The prices I recieved there were on average higher than I have been asking at the market sales I've taken part in this year. So I have no complaints!

Just want to add one other little comment here. I know that Higginsrat rubbed some people the wrong way, but I do believe she has the best interests of this hobby at heart. It is clear from many other posts along the same line that she wants to see breeders fairly reimbursed for the efforts and costs that go into producing fine breeding stock. Unfortunately there is often quite a gap between what we think our stock is worth, and what the average backyard chicken-keeper is prepared to spend.

Holy crap, what they say about a full moon must be true...everybody on this thread seems to be a little over sensitive. And a couple down right rude.

Tara, to be perfectly honest I rarely read your posts. I have difficulty with your rambling and your refusal to use conventional English spelling or grammar mostly just makes me grumpy. But I do respect what you usually say, treatises they may be, though generally have a far different view of economics than you do. So I usually just don't say anything.

That said, since there were so many inflamed egos here I went back and fully read your post, and I will say this. Your method of approaching a subject is just as bizarre as ever, but you didn't insult anybody. I do think your numbers are pretty far out there (the eceonomics I use on my farm would make $50 a bird a pretty good price, and I don't think looking at prices 15 years ago is particularly valuable to my situation today, but that's my method, your method is interesting to ponder anyway), but still no insult.


The only thing I take general issue with here, other than barryk's generally extreme rudeness here, is viczoe's insistence that involvement in poultry must be a hobby. In my general opinion, this is the issue I usually have with judges. The way you guys talk about the poultry "hobby" and our "clubs" makes me think of a bunch of kids in a tree house. I think your perspective and the way you talk makes it difficult for most people to take us seriously.

I believe it has been implied, both here and in the other post about judges, that those of us who treat poultry as a hobby and don't try to derive an income from their birds are somehow more passionate and do more good to heritage poultry. If that is not the implication, sorry for implying but this is how I'm reading it. Personally I think not trying to make poultry enocomically viable does far more harm than good, but I know that everybody is at their own place and is doing their best, so I usually keep my mouth shut.

But I have to say, I spend more than a thousand hours a year with my birds, probably closer to two thousand or more I don't actually count. I also have a farm to pay for. I expect everything on my farm to pay for itself. I do expect to make a profit at farming. I think it gives me the ability to do far more for heritage and heirloom breeds and varieties than if I did not expect to make a profit. And believe me, if I was not extremely passionate about what I am doing, I would have the very comfortable job my credentials say I should have, not be farming. This most certainly is not a hobby for me, nor should it be.

Now, looks like the frost is getting pretty close to melted. I'm going to go bag some near frozen parsley for my business.

KathyS wrote:But as long as there are people selling their young pullets for so little, it makes it hard for the rest of us to aks a fair price for our stock...Unfortunately there is often quite a gap between what we think our stock is worth, and what the average backyard chicken-keeper is prepared to spend.

Kathy, this shouldn't make it hard for you to ask a fair price. You said it yourself, your price is fair and that's that. The difference is they're losing money and you aren't. You can feel sorry for them, I do, but you shouldn't second guess your prices based on this.

And actually I find the backyarders are often willing to pay whatever price they're given, no questions asked. Their hens are their pets!

Just want to add one other little comment here. I know that Higginsrat rubbed some people the wrong way, but I do believe she has the best interests of this hobby at heart. It is clear from many other posts along the same line that she wants to see breeders fairly reimbursed for the efforts and costs that go into producing fine breeding stock. Unfortunately there is often quite a gap between what we think our stock is worth, and what the average backyard chicken-keeper is prepared to spend.

I agree.

Some very god points all around.

It is a luxury to be able to sell for more than (or even equal to) the cost of production. In the right market the value added would be reflected in the pricing, but right now, it just inst there. So we pour our heart and soul into it and get back what ever the market will give us. If we did it for profit we would be out really quickly. Once one factors in the quality of a bird, the quality of the genetics behind it, the value of unrelated or rare lines etc, the cost just rises and rises.

We may DESERVE more than we get for our birds, but that is the market we have.

If more attention was to go to bringing in NEW people, to having those with the $10 crossbred flock join in and feel welcome and valued, then they will see value in the purebreds or carefully bred birds and will become willing to pay more for that. THEN we will have a larger market for the upper end priced birds, people willing to pay closer to the actual value of the bird. As long as it is an exclusive group, as long as there is no growth in the newbie grass roots sector, things will ermain the same.

People will pay for value if they see value in it. They will not see value in it if they are excluded from it.

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well said shannon, i got $5.00 per birds for my marans x trio at the sale that were 4 months old , way lower than i expected but they are crossbreeds and it is fall, it all depends on the market and people expect to pay cheap birds they rarely want to pay $30 for a POL pullet let alone $65 it has to be certain people who know a good bird when they see it and know what they want. the average person wont pay $65+ for a chicken.

Even though I have had a confrontation with Tara, I guess it would be untrue and unfair to say that I hold a grudge or have lost respect towards her, after all not everyone will see eye to eye or be on the same page as others.
I have had more time understand the picture as a whole and realize that things could have been dealt with in a different way on my part. Can't change the past, but can be mindful of the future.

Looking back at this thread in whole, I realize now that I did read out of context what Tara was implying.

CountryThyme Mentioned in his message....

Tara, to be perfectly honest I rarely read your posts. I have difficulty with your rambling and your refusal to use conventional English spelling or grammar mostly just makes me grumpy. But I do respect what you usually say, treatises they may be, though generally have a far different view of economics than you do. So I usually just don't say anything.

I too find it difficult to fully understand your comments Tara, but that's where I should have made the change and stopped and realized that maybe I am reading this wrong. It is rather easy to misread one's opinion over a text conversation, especially not taking into consideration body language, and facial expressions. How can one truly understand the opinion of someone else when they are sitting behind a computer.

I want to take this chance to apologize for any hurt feelings... towards not only Tara, but anyone else I may have offended. I am sorry for telling you to get off your high horse, I guess mine in this circumstance was a little higher up in the clouds, but feel I am back down to earth.

It takes nothing to let our tempers fly, and get the best of us, in contrast to the effort it takes one to simply realize wrongful doings, and offer apologies.

This first started off as anger towards this scenario, and now has lead to understanding.

For me this is a hobby right now, but on it's way to becoming a business as well. I truly look up to Country Thyme Farms, I am not yet in that stage in my life but, It takes a great deal to get to that point.
I look up to Daniel and Anna, follow them on facebook and admire their work, efforts and commitment. They are living a lifestyle that I would also like to live one day, in similar fashion but different in my own way. I really don't think I can grow as nice herb's as they have proven.. On a side note... Purple Basil is my #1 sought after for next year. Yum!
I am focusing on poultry primarily. Daniel treats his as a business cause that's what it is... it's his livelihood, if I am correct?

As much as I look at this as a Hobby, I would also be lying if I said I was not treating and approaching many aspects like that if it were my business.
Sure when it comes down to it....I would love to get top dollar for my stock & efforts.. But the reality like so many others have stated that is not the "Current Market". To get top dollar would mean I can reinvest into my operation/hobby to continue growth and sustainability for years ahead.

I also would rather share and send out Good Quality birds, knowing that there is some decent stock in the backyards of others. What they do with the breed and it's "Quality" is then out of my hands, hopefully someone whom is paying that money for a bird is going to see the Value in it that I did, but you never know.

Like mentioned before, for majority of my life we were not well off. But we as a family have fought and worked our way like many others, to where we are now.

I decided that before I embark on a business to take the time and go back to school and do things properly, learn the fundamentals of business. A few things that stick out in my head are such realities like
a company can be profitable and still go bankrupt from cash flow problems, just to say that it's also possible that a company can have great cash flow, but not be profitable.

It depends on so many variables, I'm not going to go further into discussion as that's a whole other topic that can go on and on and......

On the grounds that everyone is much different than the next and opinions will vary, I think we can all chalk this up to life and it's ups and down.....Then and Now, but focus more on the present and future ahead.

Last thing that came to mind, we all see different "Value" in our stock or our business. One may value Quality over Price, while others may Value Price over quality. It really depends on whom is the one buying and whom is the one selling. I Guess for me I don't put that much of a $$ Value on my birds, but I do put a value on their Quality, and in the end I guess that will reflect on the $$ value that others put on it, and what they want to pay......

If I was to charge Top $$ for my birds, that means that only those whom have will be able to afford stock from my flock, why therefore based on that those whom see the quality value, may not be able to afford the higher prices, and miss out.

Aw shucks thanks Jonny!

Not to many people in our generation are doing what you two are... Keep it Up!

As I said from the beginning Good people, Good quality, Good prices, Good selection, and a Good sale.
BarryK

I just have to say there is a country song that is pretty close to this hole ordeal god is great beer is good and people are crazy lol .

coopslave wrote:

Just want to add one other little comment here. I know that Higginsrat rubbed some people the wrong way, but I do believe she has the best interests of this hobby at heart. It is clear from many other posts along the same line that she wants to see breeders fairly reimbursed for the efforts and costs that go into producing fine breeding stock. Unfortunately there is often quite a gap between what we think our stock is worth, and what the average backyard chicken-keeper is prepared to spend.

I agree.

I agree as well. I am not commenting on the main point of this thread, but just I felt I had to post this. Thank you for speaking up. We all have different ways of writing and approaching posts, but it is disgusting when one gets ganged up on. Tara, I also can't always make it through your posts, but I would be sorry if you weren't posting. People here need to remember their manners. Bullying is never cool. Glad it seems to have turned around.

Susan wrote:

coopslave wrote:

Just want to add one other little comment here. I know that Higginsrat rubbed some people the wrong way, but I do believe she has the best interests of this hobby at heart. It is clear from many other posts along the same line that she wants to see breeders fairly reimbursed for the efforts and costs that go into producing fine breeding stock. Unfortunately there is often quite a gap between what we think our stock is worth, and what the average backyard chicken-keeper is prepared to spend.

I agree.

I agree as well. I am not commenting on the main point of this thread, but just I felt I had to post this. Thank you for speaking up. We all have different ways of writing and approaching posts, but it is disgusting when one gets ganged up on. Tara, I also can't always make it through your posts, but I would be sorry if you weren't posting. People here need to remember their manners. Bullying is never cool. Glad it seems to have turned around.

I do get through Tara's posts, but not always in the first go!
I think we have to remember that it is just one person's opinion and we have to accept it as that. It is sometimes difficult to show humour and sarcasm in the written word, I should know as I am misinterpreted sometimes as well. It is not about being nicey, nicey I don't think (lord knows I am not very good at that ) but just taking a little time to try and understand where someone is coming from. I was surprised at the reaction to Tara's post as I did not read it the way many others did. I have to admit I may go back and read it again, but I didn't recall personal attacks, just opinions about things.

I wasn't going to get involved here to much, but I would like to thank Jonny. It takes a big person to come back with a cooler head and a clearer view. Again, he is entitled to his opinion about things but it is nice he has shown that he is open to other's whether he agrees or not. Nice.

I am trying more now not to always post right away with something that gets my blood up a bit. I am not always successful at it though. (right Uno? ) Some people may think that is wrong and if I am passionate about something I should express myself, but all I am saying is a try to take a step back and if I still feel the same way I will step right back in again!

Finally, and I suppose for some of you at long last, I would like to thank all the passionate poultry people that come here, not for conflict, but for discussion and learning. It doesn't mean we will all agree but it is nice to see people are still trying to do right by the poultry that they own.

I love when threads take on a life of their own!

Good comments coopslave! I also sometimes fail to rethink posting when my blood's boiling a little, as today, but I decided to hit the submit button today anyway.

I second the nod to Jonny, well handled.

Finally, I hope you weren't overly insulted Tara. I figure if anyone can take criticism with stride it's you. I didn't mean any actual harm or attack, but I apologize now if I caused it. I for one am glad you're on here, your personality certainly keeps people on their toes! When I do read your posts in their entirety, my interest is always piqued.

Been following this topic. Don't wish to comment on anything anyone said but would like offer this observation. Prices for livestock, in general, are well below what they were just even five years ago. Purebred animals of any species will only get top dollar if someone is willing to pay top dollar. Don't matter how to standard it is, how perfect a specimen it may be or what that breed fetched last year. The value of anything is only what someone is willing to pay.

Now as to the heated opinions people were feeling. Sometimes what bothers us is not what is being said, but how what is said is being presented to us. We may need to take the hands away from the keyboard and really read what is making us upset. I have even gone to another topic and then come back to what threw me to re-read it again.

We are all adults here, mostly, so I am sure no one has any ill feelings to what was said. Now I will get my oar out of the water and be on my way.