Vaccines for the small flock owner - opinions

Have a question I want to ask. With all the current postings on disease and controlling disease, I began to think. As of today most vaccines available are marketed with the large producer in mind. Vaccines generally are sold in flats of vials with each vial able to inoculate 1000 birds. Unless a small flock owner buys as part of a group order, this means the cost to vaccinate our flocks is expensive and making it for some too much of a hassle to do.

My question is this: A vaccine or vaccination package was made available that would cover disease[s] such as ILT, AI, CRD, Mycloplasma, ect, to vaccinate a small flock of 25 birds that was cost affordable, how likely would you be to use it as part of keeping your flock healthy?

If such a thing were offered, how much would you be willing to pay?

If such a package were available and you choose not to use it, what would be your reasons?

I am REALLY curious to read opinions on this.

My own opinion is that I would be more likely to vaccinate my birds if an affordable package of vaccines were made available. I would be willing to pay as much as $100 if I knew the vaccine[s] covered diseases like ILT, AI, Marecks, and CRD. I'm one that doesn't see a problem in this if it means my flock could be spared the cull if a reportable outbreak occured.

I am also thinking it would suit me as my birds are mainly used as pets and exhibition.

I believe in vaccination for viruses that can cause serious problems (ILT being one of them). I have looked into vaccines for Myco and was told by the poultry vet that it is not reccomended, since they test birds using serum levels it is not good to vaccinate since they the levels would be affected. To me that sounds a bit strange, why not protect them if possible?

I buy a flat of ILT each spring, it does all my hatches and the yearly boosters on my flock that I keep over. I try to plan my hatches so I can do as many chicks/boosters at one time, there for reducing costs. It on average is $20/vaccine to do the birds so if you do 20 you would look at $1 per bird, I try to do 50-100 if possible at one time (This is the first shot and booster) so usually I am sucessful in doing this, thus limiting the cost per chick to ($0.20/chick). I feel that is a small price to pay for keeping them healthy.

If there was a combo package available I would definately look at it, for any disease that a bird could get that they would them be carriers of, definately would interest me. The vaccines would have to be safe and proven first, I would not want to vaccinate my bird to keep them healthy and then they go on to spread the vaccine form of the disease to others.

I would not vaccinate.

I do not even use medicated chick starter.

BUt keep in mind that my birds do not leave here to go to shows or exhibitions. I am truly a backyarder in that my birds rarely see anywhere but my backyard.

I hardly ever lose a bird to illness. I lose far greater numbers to bears, raccoons, hawks and owls. Can't vaccinate against what is my number one bird loss problem. It is pointless to vaccinate birds that are likely to be eaten by a predator before they ever live long enough to get ill!

I am not saying that vaccinating doesn't make sense. It just does not make sense in the face of my individual chicken keeping realities.

Personally I would not buy the package, at least not at this stage of the game. I had a conversation with a senior cfia inspector for avian diseases last year and was told that if any birds are found with antibodies to any mild form of Newcastle disease then the premise is ordered depoopulated whether the birds appear healthy or not. Their experience is that if they carry any antibodies then they are even more susceptible to more virulent strains. So far I cant agree with the protocol. Too many disease vectors, treat them all and for what??
Pets, sure if you luv them. Mine are livestock, farm critters, luv em or not. After carefully considering the situation, and NO I will not do this, Im better off hatching a couple thousand, let them eat shit n dirt n wutever they can digest with minimal inputs from me, expose to disease carriers through carelessness or accident (read go to sales and bring them back), test and hope for disease. Why?? CFIA values my birds at pol @ $30 each. I got $4 each at the damn auction, Why on earth would I refuse a disease now??
Good thing I value money less than my Breadline.

reneggaide wrote:Personally I would not buy the package, at least not at this stage of the game. I had a conversation with a senior cfia inspector for avian diseases last year and was told that if any birds are found with antibodies to any mild form of Newcastle disease then the premise is ordered depoopulated whether the birds appear healthy or not. Their experience is that if they carry any antibodies then they are even more susceptible to more virulent strains. So far I cant agree with the protocol. Too many disease vectors, treat them all and for what??
Pets, sure if you luv them. Mine are livestock, farm critters, luv em or not. After carefully considering the situation, and NO I will not do this, Im better off hatching a couple thousand, let them eat shit n dirt n wutever they can digest with minimal inputs from me, expose to disease carriers through carelessness or accident (read go to sales and bring them back), test and hope for disease. Why?? CFIA values my birds at pol @ $30 each. I got $4 each at the damn auction, Why on earth would I refuse a disease now??
Good thing I value money less than my Breadline.

You make a good point reguarding what the CFIA inspector told you. I got much the same from the Alberta Provincial Vet I spoke to a couple of years ago regarding ILT. I was told that vaccinating for ILT wouldn't protect my flock from a cull if ILT were reported in my area. My impression was that all the ILT vaccine does is tell the inspectors where the source of ILT came from, wild or vaccine. Nothing more or less.

It seems like under the current system there is no real incentive to participate in either testing programs or vaccination. The only incentives I can think of are FEAR and MUNNY, both tools of terrorists. In the face of outbreaks it seems common sense is an aberration of thought, to be taken advantage of.
Still, I am considering to protect my purebreds of proper breeding age from ILT, but I fear it is for nought if we all have had exposure to some mild newcastles disease which we wouldnt even know we had in the first place.

In the end it just makes the small flock owner distrust the people who are telling us that we should vaccinate for our poultry's health. Talk about your mixed messages.

I cannot see how it would be all for naught, Reneggaide Roo, to vaccinate for ILT if your purpose is to protect your flock from contracting the disease.

Toybarrens I am not sure why you understood from the vet something different than me, I guess we all take it with a different perspective.
If I vaccinate my flock for ILT, and there is an outbreak near me, One I feel my birds are protected because they should not come down with the disease, there is no 100% because there is no guarantees in how the vaccine works in each individual. But I was under the understanding as well that my flock would be safe because I did vaccine, If I can show the proof of vaccine (reciepts for the vials, the records of when I administered, and the birds I administered to) then my birds would be spared.

I believe if a person goes to sales, auctions, shows or even frequents a lot of other bird farms it is just smart to protect your birds from what you can expose them to.

NS,NB,PEI allready vaccinate birds for 25cents agesnt ILT.

Hidden River wrote:Toybarrens I am not sure why you understood from the vet something different than me, I guess we all take it with a different perspective.
If I vaccinate my flock for ILT, and there is an outbreak near me, One I feel my birds are protected because they should not come down with the disease, there is no 100% because there is no guarantees in how the vaccine works in each individual. But I was under the understanding as well that my flock would be safe because I did vaccine, If I can show the proof of vaccine (reciepts for the vials, the records of when I administered, and the birds I administered to) then my birds would be spared.

I believe if a person goes to sales, auctions, shows or even frequents a lot of other bird farms it is just smart to protect your birds from what you can expose them to.

I wouldn't know? I can't comment Hidden because I don't recall you being in with my conversation when me and Bruce talked to the Provincial Vet. So I would have no idea.

When I spoke to her 2 years ago, we were asking about ILT vac and my questions were that if I choose to vaccinate my flock, does it protect them from a cull? She replied that no it does not. I then asked her what the point was then to vaccinate? Her reply was that in the event of a reported outbreak the province can then trace the source of the outbreak to better contain it.

She then assured me that in the case of a cull that the province would not just waltz in and cull everything as they realize that many hobbists raise heritage birds and spend a lot of money obtaining birds. The province recognizes this and in some situations would work with the flock owner by quaratine and closing their flock to then allow the owner time to gather eggs and hatch them in an approved off sight location. This would assure the flock owner would not lose their bloodlines. Then once that is done, the province would then cull the infected flock.

call ducks wrote:NS,NB,PEI allready vaccinate birds for 25cents agesnt ILT.

I wish they had that here in Alberta. I think someone told me that you can get the vaccine for $20-$25 directly from the Provincial Vet office by phoning them.

I know my vet in Onoway can get the vaccine in bu only in flats at a cost of $125 [last years prices.]

Sorry Toybarrens I thought you were discussing the talk she gave last year in Red Deer. NOT a personal conversation you had with her.

mirycreek wrote:I cannot see how it would be all for naught, Reneggaide Roo, to vaccinate for ILT if your purpose is to protect your flock from contracting the disease.

As Toybarons has stated above, there is no real protection, I got the same information from the cfia avian disease inspector. BTW do you know the radius of the cull Toybarons, how many miles from the outbreak they cull to?
So really its just a participation program and you might have a chance to save your genetics, maybe, but if I remember correctly those who dont vaccinate have absolutely no chance of redeeming their flock once exposed. No biosecurity + no vaccination + ILT = say bye bye birdies.
My biggest concern is for the many strains of Newcastle disease which have little or no detrimental effect on a flock, but if found the flock is again culled whether healthy and resistant or not. Seems like they have orders to get rid of all these little bugs at any cost.

@ Hidden, that's okay, *lol*.

@ reneggaide, I have no idea what the radius of the cull would be. Can you enlighten us? Would love to know.

I did ask, but can't remember numbers very well. A mile, 5, 10, dunno, but I think they decide that case by case, how much biosecurity and the different strains of the disease might play into their decision too.

mirycreek wrote:I cannot see how it would be all for naught, Reneggaide Roo, to vaccinate for ILT if your purpose is to protect your flock from contracting the disease.

I better clarify this again. One thing ILT vaccine will do for us all is: if there is an outbreak in your vicinity, and if you practice good biosecurity to begin with, then there is a CHANCE that your birds will be spared culling. Yes, I remember now, each case is assessed individually. The radius of the cull zone depends on your biosecurity and your neighbors, the virulence of the organism causing disease and other factors too. They will go to whatever lengths they ( CFIA) feel are necessary to eradicate these diseases and have the authority to do so.

Reminds me of that Christmas song "makin a list, checkin it twice, (big guy in a blood red suit) is comin to town" sic

I think I am a lazy chickenkeeper. That is the only thing I can really put this down to. I can't be bothered to vaccinate against anything. Maybe it is poor chickenkeeping, I don't know, but I don't and don't think I will.

Some time ago I had purchased (others will remember this what I am saying) three 12 week old adolescents, two pullets and a cockerel. The breeder vaccinated for mareks disease. One pullet and the cockerel contracted the disease. Both were culled when it was ascertained with the ailment was. The other pullet did not manifest the disease and she is still going on strong. She is a big girl and gives me enormous eggs, not double yolkers, but the yolks are huge, hence I guess the big egg shell, smiling.

I have no faith in the mareks vaccine -- that is because of this experience.

I think that ILT is a very serious disease. Yet, I am feeling still too lazy to vaccinate. I can only attribute it to laziness and nothing else really. Mareks vaccine, well, I don't believe in it.

that is my stand on it. I don't bother. I have a good many chickens and youngsters. They are all healthy as the days are now long. Not to say that something wicked this way may come, but for now, I am happy with my lazy decision. Period. Maybe if I saw reason to vaccinate, really, I would come out of my lazy butt attitude and vaccinate, but for now, just ain't goin' there. This is a most interesting topic with some very interesting replies, by the way. Beautiful days to us all, CynthiaM.

Question on the ILT and other Vaccines that people are using
Say a person Bought Poultry from someone that does the vaccine or is at a show
will the vaccinated birds give say the ILT or Mareks or what ever the vaccines are that people are giving to the persons Chickens??
hope the question is understandable.
Joe

appway wrote:Question on the ILT and other Vaccines that people are using
Say a person Bought Poultry from someone that does the vaccine or is at a show
will the vaccinated birds give say the ILT or Mareks or what ever the vaccines are that people are giving to the persons Chickens??
hope the question is understandable.
Joe

Great question. This is something that I've always wondered about? If I vaccinate my birds am I putting other peoples birds at risk?

Would it depend on if I used shedding or non-shedding vaccines, and do all vaccines have that option? Must I continue vaccinating all birds brought into my flock from that time on? If a person used shedding vaccine would the stuff that is shed from the vaccinated birds inoculate new birds brought into the flock? (not sure if I make sense or if I am plain stupid, but I find the do's and don'ts of vaccination a little confusing. )

Also, if you do vaccinate your flock are you obligated to let people know if they buy birds from you?

reneggaide wrote:

mirycreek wrote:I cannot see how it would be all for naught, Reneggaide Roo, to vaccinate for ILT if your purpose is to protect your flock from contracting the disease.

I better clarify this again. One thing ILT vaccine will do for us all is: if there is an outbreak in your vicinity, and if you practice good biosecurity to begin with, then there is a CHANCE that your birds will be spared culling. Yes, I remember now, each case is assessed individually. The radius of the cull zone depends on your biosecurity and your neighbors, the virulence of the organism causing disease and other factors too. They will go to whatever lengths they ( CFIA) feel are necessary to eradicate these diseases and have the authority to do so.

Reminds me of that Christmas song "makin a list, checkin it twice, (big guy in a blood red suit) is comin to town" sic

But what is your real focus here RR? Are you more concerned with protecting your birds from this disease or are you more concerned with a gov't mandated cull?
Do you disagree that the vaccine will protect your birds from getting sick?

Thank you for calling me out on this Mirycreek, Good for you my friend!
My focus here is to demonstrate the "squeeze" we get put into when faced with these issues. Whether we vaccinate for ILT or not, Whether we install the best biosecurity measures or not, If our neighbor does neither and gets a virulent strain we can and will be culled, "just in case".
And its not just ILT, theres Newcastles and a few others that can result in a cull "just in case" This is where my focus falls apart and I get angry.
So on the one hand we are led to believe, recommended even, that buying vaccines and treatments will protect us from the BOGEYMAN. But in the same breath we are told that if something bad happens we will be paid and can sleep knowing that we did the right thing to protect our fellows(if in fact we did do the right thing acorrding to..), without our birds. Small consolation.
I want replacements. Equivalent quality same lines. I want responsibility to the endangered breeds so they are not lost in an executive decision. I want this hobby to thrive and prosper us all. The truth is the sword of Domocles hangs above us in this endeavor and to proceed I must face this stress test. What will you do<yes you who reads this>? How far are you willing to go? Will you beg out of it as did the man who wanted the throne? This is one of those things, uncomfortable things, that show you who you are and what you are made of.
Im still inbetwixt the issues myself, searching my soul for light.
Show me yours.

I am not familiar with vaccines at all I bought my birds as a hobby but also with the intention to provide food for the family. I try to breed them for resistance and cull anything I believe to be less. I want naturally healthy birds and if I have to worry about vaccines then why am I doing this? I can see in others situations how the vaccines could be beneficial. Anyways, back to my question... what is a shedding and a non-shedding vaccine?

Stll want to know what happens if I bring a Vaccinated bird into a flock
does it infect the birds with what the new birds were vaccinated for

Reneggaide, I missed your post. If I read you correctly, you are saying, what is the stinking point? Is doing the 'right' thing going to protect us from having culled chickens? Or is doing the 'right' thing simply going to be a badge of honour we wear pinned to our chest as we weep over our culled chickens?

I think this has been my point in all this talk about Mycoplasma and other diseases. Is inoculating and depopulating going to make a real, honest-to-goodness, difference? Or is it just hot air, smoke and mirrors...bowing to someone else's idea of 'the right thing'?

Like you...I struggle with this. If I had birds I knew to be sick, I would not sell eggs or birds to anyone. But nor am I going to jump through hoops, bend over backwards or kiss any babies to PROVE that I have done the 'right thing' and gain someone else's nod of approval over my method of chicken keeping. Who stands in that position of authority over me? Not anyone I've met so far. Even if I do the approved 'right' thing and inoculate my flock, just as you point out, they can end up dead anyway, by the man in the hazmat suit, a mindless drone who does not give a rat's a$$ about your biosecurity or inoculation records. If you are in the kill zone, it is your address alone that deems you guilty. Bye bye birdies. Yes, you did all the right things, and guess what, it doesn't matter.

So...do we go through this so our birds have better lives, or so we feel better about ourselves? Where do we draw the line between doing the right thing according to our own ethics, and doing the right thing that other people think should be our ethics?

I don't know. Gray and fuzzy. Unclear. A head scratcher. I think we mostly agree on humane standards of care. On the commitment to a good life and quick death for our chickens. But this goes beyond basic needs and into a whole other area. I am with you Reneggaide...conflicted.