Sick Chicks. Respiratory Illness?

Well Higgins, as I've said before your research and knowledge are staggering and vast in scope. Lots to read and take in.

Question: will I go to extreme bio-security measures to prevent illness in my chickens?

Answer: No.

Am I able to cope with the vagaries of a chicken's life and occassional unexplained death? Yes.

Am I convinced that a drop in egg production or weight gain is that big a deal to the backyard chick keeper? No.

Do I think most of us non-commercial keepers would even notice the drop in weight or egg production? No.

While I do not doubt you have superbly healthy birds, would they continue to be this healthy if exposed to what everyone else's birds are exposed to? Are they super birds, or only super birds in their limited geogrpahic and highly restricted environment?

As a chicken keeper I accept that there will be deaths for which I have no explanation. I am in fact quite amazed that I don't have more. I do not fuss over my birds overly much. In fact I have drawn my lines about what I will and will not do for my chickens. What steps I will take and what steps I won't. I tell people if they cannot cope with the REALITY of death and illness, keeping chickens is not for them.

WOuld I buy hatching eggs from Silkie? Yes. Why? Because I am able to cope with birds that die. I am not threatened, stopped or made immobile because of a respiratory illness in my chickens. I do not let it or the possiblity of it control the eggs or birds I buy. Chickens die. Period.

Do I think Silkie has a responsibility to kill all her chickens? NO I DO NOT! Not unless every single one of us is willing to do the same due to the fact that owing to the ubiquitous nature of this illness, we likely ALL have it present in our flocks (except for Higgins, who does not).

I think it comes down to not just chicken philosophy, but maybe life philosophy too. How much are you willing to manipulate your environment to make sure that reality does not get you? That is a personal decision. I know that chickens suffer from a plethora of diseases and I know that most of us have had them and still have them and without hesitation I have and will continue to buy hatching eggs from anyone on this site. I can cope with chicken deaths due to illness and predator and the mysterious unexplained and will not allow those things to stop me nor dictate my chicken keeping habits.

Some things you can change. SOme things you can't. Knowing the difference is posted on all those fridge magnets that start with "God grant me the..." I have had illnesses in my flock and let them, without any antibiotic intervention, fight it out. I have tough ass birds! I think Silkie should do the same and see who is standing at the end.

Higgins, I think we disagree on philosophy. You want to battle mightily to keep birds safe. I say let the chips fall where they may (within reason) and there is no reconciling those two different approaches. No matter what Silkie decides will be her method, I just want to publicly state that I would happily buy eggs from her and not let the possibility of loss or illness stop me.

Very well said Uno.

Silky you can get Gail's book on e-bay and read it for yourself and go from there. Don't let this tear you apart but you if there is anyway consider testing one bird and take it from there, just so you know. I am not into longgggg posts, so will make my advice short as I don't know how to quote.

Heather

Its so good to see some different viewpoints expressed here. I don’t have the kind of experience or in-depth knowledge of poultry disorders to have much to add, or even feel qualified to give an educated opinion.
But I give a lot of credit to Uno for putting other viewpoints out there and stating an opinion. Different views need to be shared.

One thing that got me thinking was (I think it was Higgins'?) mentioned that these diseases are not new to poultry keepers.

I have a product in my livestock medicine box called Vet RX. One of the many claims on the label is that it is effective in the treatment and prevention of CRD. I’m not going to venture a guess as to whether that claim is true or not. But regardless, the point I wanted to make is that this particular product, and the claims made by the manufacturer goes back 100 years. That means that 100 years ago chicken fanciers/farmers/poultry breeders were dealing with the same symptoms, same illnesses as we are today.

So, what if every time there was a sniffle or cough they had culled their entire flock, destroyed the hatching eggs and started over? How on earth could they have made any progress towards making the breeds we have today. Most of our beloved “heritage breeds” were mostly developed over 100 years ago. Maybe breeders of that time were practicing certain levels of biosecurity? I don’t know that. But they WERE sharing breeding stock amongst each other and competing with their birds at shows. They didn’t have Virkon to disinfect their facilities and kill viruses, and they didn’t have access to the antibiotics we use today. I think they must have embraced the philosophy of survival of the fittest. Apparently many of the large breeds of that time were bigger, stronger and more productive than the version most of us have now.

So, if a poultry specialist recommends culling a flock, is that because their training deals more with the commercial aspect of chicken-keeping. I think I can understand the value of disposing of a barn full of chickens in order to have a clean facility for the next batches of broilers. But as small breeders, our goals are different. I wonder if it is in the best interest of a breed as a whole to kill off entire flocks and the unique blend of genetics held within that flock in order to try to eradicate an illness that is as common as the common cold is for us humans?

Just some food for thought.

Yes very interesing addition to the discussion for sure Kathy! An angle I hadn't though of before.

.

Just a little update.

It seems to be hitting my turkeys pretty good now (as well as I am still losing the odd meat birds). I noticed that one of my cochin chicks has swollen eyes again this morning. They are back on antibiotics.

But the poor turkeys. I've culled a few. Some of them were quite swollen about the eyes. The government write up on MG. http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/poultry/MG.Infection.pdf

The one of the turkey's looked like the one in the picture. Pretty bad. I've started them back on antibiotics, and am culling the really bad looking ones. We've been burning the bodies to get rid of them.

Today, I got a hold of Dr. Cox and spoke with him. From the symptoms and the fact that is affecting my turkeys like this, he suspects MG too, but want's me to send some in so that we can be sure before I make any decisions.

I was a little concerned as far as the turkey goes, because the government site states that MG in Turkeys is a reportable disease, but he assured me that was for commercial growers.

So on Monday I am to send in 3 chickens and 2 turkeys, that must be freshly dead and packed with ice packs. (and then pray to God that people don't show up at my door wearing white suites and gas masks. lol )

If it does turn out to be MG, he recommends culling, disinfecting, waiting and then repopulating from a MG free hatchery such as Rochester... Which of course takes us to Hatchery Stock.... sigh....

I forgot to ask about what the waiting period for the results would be, as well as how best to dispatch the chicks/turkeys to send in for samples. The lady the other day that I talked to did mention cervical dislocation.

What is the best way to do this? The thought of doing it to the chicks turns my stomach. (I've always used the edge of a shovel to the back of the neck when culling sick chicks, but this usually pretty much takes the head off. And that probably just wont do for autopsy.)

I must also make a note that I did use antibiotics because it will be harder to see the symptoms that they are looking for (ie facial swelling). I'll pick the sickest looking chicks to send, of course.

I'm really torn still on what to do...
I have to say, I really appreciate all these views that have been presented here. It has definitely given me much to think about, and the options. There is so much great information in this post, and so many good points made, that I will have to read, and re-read to take it all in. Thank you so much for putting the time, thought and heart into these replies.

Just wanted to tell you I am sorry you are having to go through this. It is a tough thing. Thanks for sharing it all with us. My thoughts are with you.

.

Tera, Thank you so much for that offer. I'll definately keep this in mind. I'm not sure just what we will do yet if it comes to culling.

Guinea Fowl. I have heard that Guinea Fowl are resistant to many chicken illnesses. Does this include MG? I've never seen my guinea fowl show any signs of sickness. Could they pick this up from my chickens, not show symptoms and be carriers of it too? Lets say if I did decide to cull the chickens, would the guinea fowl need to go too?

I got some of these as hatching eggs from Jean a couple years ago, and sort of feel a little sentimental about them. I get so much enjoyment out of watching these birds, too. Also have some eggs in the incubator right now. I candled a few last night and could see these precious little lives swiming in bliss in the shell, and wondered if they too would be carriers...

silkiebantam wrote:
I forgot to ask about what the waiting period for the results would be, as well as how best to dispatch the chicks/turkeys to send in for samples. The lady the other day that I talked to did mention cervical dislocation.

What is the best way to do this?

I would think Dr. Cox would want the birds completely whole and intact Silkie.

Thinking of you. This too shall pass.

Oh Silkie, my heart is still ripped in part about what is going on with you. You have your big girl panties on for sure and you certainly need this at this time. I don't know how things will work out for you in the end, but you have all our support, whatever comes what may. It is our hope that when your birds are tested that it is not that frickin' mycoplasma. This is a good thing that you are following through with testing. I can surely bet now though that there will be many forum people that will be very affeared to ask for any help if they have a sick bird or two, for fear of the kind of trauma that you are experiencing that may be passed on to them too, sigh...knowledge is power for sure, but sometimes it scares one half to death. Good luck, our friend, keep your chin up, there will be again a brighter day, CynthiaM.

If there was one Voice Of God in the chicken world, for me, this is it.

I hope this link works. Silkie, there is much MUCH more where this came from and I think it would be some reading that would be applicable to your situation now.

This "copy" if it works, is from another site and I hope that does not break any rules. This topic is many layered and there is no one rihgt way to go at it.

Oh...see below quote as the one copied. Don't know why it showed up this way but here it is...This is from a fellow whose poultry brain is considered intellectual property and is not longer permitted to post on sites due the what he knows...which is LOTS!

"MS and MG are not a dire threat to Poultry. It is a threat to commercial operations because egg production and growth rate are compromized and it would cut into their profits.

Several universities have nearly all their research lines infected with MS. I know of two. For some odd reason Arkansas is still clean. I had to do back flips to clean up birds and bring them onto the facilities.

If you have the mycoplasma in your chickens that will kill turkeys, you shouldn't raise turkeys. You can still raise chickens.

Mycoplasma will open your flock to be more easily infected with other diseases. As long as you are careful you won't bring these diseases onto your farm.

If I had Mycoplasma in my flock I'd just check with your local extension agent to see what diseases are common in your area and vaccinate your birds for the diseases that you can. I wouldn't kill them. I'm pretty sure that the show lines that I used to raise as a student were probably mycoplasma positive, but everyone's birds were."

So, is this man saying that Mycoplasma is a serious threat to birds or a serious threat to PROFIT! Consider this. Veterinary advice to a backyard hobbyist should, if ethically correct, explain that this will likley not be a big deal in your life as a poultry keeper but is a big deal if you make your living raising meat or eggs on an industrial scale. This is not a small difference, Silkie.

Just now, before I post this, I checked and 1009 times, this post has been looked at. For such a small site, this post is being heavily followed and I think by people who fear to wade in. If you say yeah, gee, my birds have this too, suddenly you have a mark on your forhead.

I think we need to clear one thing up. From what I have been able to gather in my reading WE ALL HAVE THAT SAME MARK. This is a prevalent, ubiquitous, GLOBAL disease and if you think you don't have it, you are delusional.

Expecting Silkie to 'do the right thing' is essentially, a load of crap. What Silkie deciides to do for her own, personal reasons and her own personal life is just fine, but she need do NOTHING out of some misguided obligation to the rest of the poultry world. Nothing. Not unless all of us want to whack a bird and send it off for necroposy and find out for certain that we are ALL in the same boat. Let him with out Mycoplasma throw the first egg.

No disrespect for HIggins who keeps birds in a way that works for her and I can see where she IS at a higher risk for infection and devastating loss because her birds are clean. But the responsibility of keeping those birds clean lies squarely with HIggins and NOT with Silkie. THe protection of clean birds lies with the keepers of clean birds and not with anyone else. If the rest of us want to happily trade in our dirty little pleasures, then so be it and we accept that some may die, some may not, some may not get as fat or lay as well and gee golly, that is just the way the cookie crumbles.

Hoping to not break a rule, but I think this issue needs to be kicked around some more and applies to EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US and certainly not Silkie in isolation. I would encourage all of you to take the phone off the hook, get a cup of coffee or tea and READ this link. Admin. forgive me if break a rule, but I think this is one hot topic that isn't quite ready to end yet.

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=11183&page=1

Uno That was a very good read and might be a a good place for Silkie to go read without so much taking of stuff from books and such.
Wild birds are a real problem around poultry and if any of us let our birds outside unless we have are sitting out there 24/7 to keep them off a farms they will always be a threat. I keep all of my poultry pens covered with golf course netting but wild birds still will stop and sit on it, I am assuming but I don't watch 24/7. This netting also goes down the sides of the pens so they don't fly inside. My Waterfowl area is not covered so there is always the chance that I could get some wild bird poop on my shoe from that area and tramp it in to another area. Because although I try to be clean I don't have a special pair of shoes at each and every pen that I change into. Some of us giving advice to poor Silky obviously have some type of special thing going on their places to keep them out.

I have a healthy flock with death coming by my hand (culling for defects) or old age but you never know, I mean really how do people who never have mites suddenly get them, likely some wild bird, how many of us keep bird feeders inviting them in? I practice good bio-secuity here and if I bring a bird in it is from a trusted source) It is not my place here to preach to anyone about how "wonderful" and better I keep my birds it is just to give what little advice I can, keeping it simple.

I am assuming Silky got this from the hatchery chicks she got as it was not to long ago but I could be wrong. Definitely cull all the Turkeys is a must, the rest will be been her family and the advice she will recievce from the Vet (keeping in mind he they are geared to commerical poultry production and would like to see all of us hobby farms take a hike for the most part) process it all and make a desiscion from there, no judgements on my part and not my place to tell her to kill her whole flock as those frizzles of her's are awfully cute and I am sure she loves them.

She taking the bull by the horn and sending a bird in for testing(way to go, who knows stranger things have happened and maybe it's something completely different(hoping so)

Heather

I think that this a great, informitive and important discussion. This has certainly been a lesson for me.

The Link that Uno posted is a good one. I'll need to go back and read and reread it again a few times. Between this post and that one, there is so much information it is almost overwhelming. I think, and think and then rethink again...

The post also made me curious about Mycoplasma Synoviae. What is the difference between that and Mycroplasma Gallisepticum? Should I be worried I have this too? Is it something that remains with the bird for the rest of it's life?

This morning my husband and I talked about it (he hasn't read any of these posts), and we were thinking that if the test did come back positive, that we would cull this time. This decision does not come lightly or easily. I think it will be one of the harder things that I've done. Especially because it is my decisions, and I will have to carry that with me. It would be so much easier if this disease would just outright kill the birds, and it would be over and done with, the choice would not be mine then. Part of the reason for this decision is because we want to be able to have turkeys, without worrying about Mycoplasma. The vet was saying that it is very hard on turkeys. I don't want to have to deal with the effects and losses that this has with them every year. If I do sell hatching eggs, I will want to do so with a clear conscience that I am not setting someone else up for the heartache that I am dealing with now. (That decisions could change when it comes down to it. I could very possibly lose my nerve.)

However, if I did cull, start over and then come into contact again, I don't think I could carry out the culling a second time. I think that I would have to learn how to live with it. If people still wished chicks or eggs from me, I will be honest and tell them that my birds could be carriers and warn them of the risks. I don't intend to put my chickens in the complete bio-bubble. I want my chickens to get out in the yard, kicking up dirt and free ranging in the yard, having that freedom. Not in a pen with every speck of green picked off. I will how ever be careful what chicks or eggs I bring home and that sort of thing. I'll take quarenteen (sp?) little more to heart, too.

I feel bad that this post may have made people reluctant to ask for advice or help with their birds. This forum is an excellent for help and learning. The responses here have been good and informative. There has been both sides talked about, and that's good. Hopefully whoever comes along looking for help, for this same thing, and even though they are reluctant to post themselves they will find information here to help them deal with it or to come to their own decision. I didn't expect my plea for help to turn into something like this. I was thinking that it was maybe infectious bronchitis, and that I would receive advice on what medication to give and then that would be that. This has turned into so much more.

I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that the tests come back as something that isn't really all that bad, and I've been freaking out for nothing. Either way, there has been lessons learned.

Out of curiosity, if I have had this in my flock for the last few years, Wouldn't my turkeys have picked it up before now? We get the white turkeys every year in the spring, and they are often brooded or living with the chickens or at least free ranging with the chickens. If they are indeed susceptible to it, as I've heard, wouldn't getting a bunch of turkey chicks and adding them in with your chickens sort of tell you if you have this in your flock or not? I'm not saying I want to go out and make a bunch of turkeys sick on purpose, but wouldn't it sort of be an indicator? But then again, I guess, if your chickens aren't having an outbreak of symptoms, maybe it isn't as catching.

Although it is hard to point fingers anywhere here, it seems to me that the chicks you brought in may somehow have caught the sickness before they got to you?
Because indeed it seems strange that your turks have never had trouble before.
But then it is very hard to know where stuff comes from isn't it?
I always thought you were a very cool person silkie and now I know you are.... it is this kind of stuff that shows what a person is made of I think!

Silkie, have you considered trying to get hold of some Denagard (Tiamulin)?

I have not yet had an outbreak of Myco, but when I heard of this drug and it's potential I bought some and I do use it on new birds i purchase when they are in quarantine just to make sure they are not bringing Myco into my flock.

No, it is not a popular or familiar drug in Canada for chickens but it is used here for swine so it is available and has apparently had extensive testing elsewhere showing that it can be used in early stages of the disease to eradicate Myco, leaving no carriers, if used early enough.

It may be a viable option for your dilemma. Start calling vets- farm vets, and see if they will bring it in for you. Send them the link. Any vet worth her salt will at least consider this.

Miry, The reason I brought up the turkeys, is because when I was talking to the vet, he automatically said when I mentioned that I also have chickens that are ranging in ages from 1-3 years of age that this illness came from my older chickens. This didn't make sense to me because I haven't seen these symptoms in any of my other chickens in the past, and I thought that since I've had turkeys for the past 3 years in a row, that it would have shown it's presence by infecting the turkeys. This years chicks where a mix of ones I hatched and ones I brought in. They went into a brand new built brooder box in my house, away from the main coup and older birds. Yes, I could have carried something in with me either on my hands or my clothing. I do pick up a cuddle chicks and turkeys. In fact I had a chair set up by the box so I could be at ease enjoying the pleasures of fuzzy buttness. But however it happened, it happened, and now I must deal with it. As I've been telling myself these last few days, "Suck it up, Buttercup!"

Sue, I went back and looked up the Denagard.

So, if I catch the Mycoplasma early enough this can stop it's progress? I'm just horrible at understanding some things and it needs to be put to me in the simplest of terms.

This is what I seen in the link that you posted pages back. (Please excuse any type errors. I couldn't copy and paste info from that site, it all had to be retyped.) Here's the link again the site I got it from: http://www.octagon-services.co.uk/articles/poultry/gallisepticum.htm

For this to work,it can be seen that the early treatment/prevention of mycoplasmal infections, before major damage has been caused, it is vital to the successful treatment of infections caused by these organisms and the achievement of a bacteriological cure. Once an infection is well established, a bacteriological cure may not be achievable and surviving mycoplasma may be put into a 'window' of selective pressure (Drlica, 2003)and therefore be stimulated to mutate and develop resistance. Fortunately, this is usually a slow process with mycoplasma because of their relatively slow growth, but resistance to some antimcrobials has been demonstrated (Burch and Valks, 2001) following prolonged exposure and usage over many years.

Overall, tiamulin is a highly effective antimycoplasmal antibiotic and can cause complete bacteriological cure or elimination, similar to bactericidal antimicrobials, when plasma levels in excess of the MBC are reached, especially in early stages of infection.

Ok, let see if I understand. The treatment needs to be given in the early stages in order to cure. Once they have had if for a while it is too late to cure it because the damage is already done, and mycoplasma is basically established, and if the medicine is given to them then over a long period of time, it may eventually (over years) build up a resistance to the medication?

So then, maybe this medication is best used as a preventitive and lets say if a person got in day old chicks (or hatching eggs), you give those chicks the medication to kill the mycoplasma.

Getting an older birds and administering the medication as a preventive may not work as well, because mycroplasma could be already well established in the bird.

I'm just trying to understand in simple terms how this works.

So then, at this point, if I got this medication and administered it to all my birds that I have now, it is already probably too late. I would be better off, to cull, start over with chicks and administer the medication to them to kill off any potential risk of MG being in these new chicks.

Is that how it works?

Forgive my denseness... I just don't want to be giving medication at the wrong time and creating a super mycoplasma.

Oh, and at what point is it to late? Once the bird starts showing symptoms?

Ok, so yesterday I took a couple pictures of a few chicks, just so you could see what I mean about the swelling around the eyes. These ones don't look as bad as the ones did before I had them on antibiotics and the ones that either died or I culled. Thankfully many are showing improved from the symptoms (but I know that they are still carriers)

Ill feeling chicks standing around hunched up and ruffled looking.


It shows swelling above and below the eye. Some were showing swelling above the beak and some redness above the sinuses. Eye (or eyes) closed and in some cases sealed shut with discharge.


This chick is a little more energetic now. It did have both eyes swelled shut about a week and a half ago. The swelling went down, but I see that one of it's eyes is starting to look sore again. You can see that it's been rubbing it's eye on it's shoulders.


A closer look at it's eye. There is what looks to be some swollen pink tissue in the corner of the eye.


At this point I am not noticing as much coughing or sneezing or nasal discharge. When there was more nasal discharge, I noticed that my chicks looked like they had dirty nostrils. I suspect that this is because I am using peat and it sticks to the wetness.

I just thought I would add a couple pictures in case someone is wondering what it looks like. I've culled the worst looking of the turkeys, but if another shows the facial swelling I'll take a picture before I cull it. Most of the turkeys show some scabbing around their nostrils. I think it might be because they see something wet and pick at it? I don't know. Hope it doesn't mean anything worse. I'll see I guess once I send some in to be tested.

Yes to all your thoughts except... how late is too late? I suspect too late is when the birds have had Myco for a while and have recovered. The diesase is firmly planted in their system. I don't think too late is when the birds are in the middle of the disease. However, the study does not mention how late is too late. I can buy a liter of Denagard for about $80. For me that would be a reasonable priceed alternative. I would decide to buy the med and take a chance rather than culling my birds. If it doesn't work you can cull them later. If it does, we all will have learned something from your experience.

Perhaps all the interested parties can chip in some $$$ for you to purchase some Denagard and give this drug a try if you can locate some locally. Or...I have half a liter sitting at home right now and if we could figure out how to get it to you I would send it.

Oh man, Silkie I have to chime in again, although I have done my best to leave this post alone . You are beating yourself up. You keep saying things like "forgive my denseness". Please stop. You are not, you are kind, your are smart and you are beautiful (I keep referring to this from the movie I watched called the help, that line was said in a similar way to a white child that a black help would tell her white children she looked after, over and over, so they knew that they were wonderful, smiling). This little thing I say may change a little, depending on what I remember, but the three ideas of, you are kind, you are smart and you are beautiful rang so true to me, of so many humankind. Stop. You have been through hell and back and you are probably going there and back again, with things that you will, may, may not, or will not do....you are wearing the biggest girl panties that I have ever seen .

I am as you. I have difficulty to understand many things unless they are said in the most simplistic of terms. I am not by any means or stretch of the imagination low in intellect, quite the opposite, as a matter of fact. It is just that some people do not learn nor absorb information in certain ways, and therefore other certain ways must be imparted for "us kind" to understand and sink into these noggins that we have as heads, smiling now that huge smile.

I am following this thread, not participating very much, but you have opened actually, a most wonderful can of worms, that we are all learning things from. I still feel badly that you have had such a crapload of crap on your plate to figure out what to do with. Have I ever mentioned that I love the word crap? It is a very good word, in my mind's eye.

Anyways, yes, you have posed good questions.

I am thinking that this frickin' mycoplasma gallisepticum (or whatever that freaky little thing is called) could be caught in the very early stages, if that is even what it is, not just a different strain of it. And from what I have read too about tamulin (or whatever that drug, aka, Denagard is called), if in the very early stages, can be stopped and not be holding the birds as carriers. But....as you said, if the use of this drug is going to cause superbug resistance, then what? I would think that the symptoms of CD come up very similar to the different varieties of it. But....should one be ready and have some drug like tamualin on hand, just in case, just in case it is mycoplasma, just in case (did I mention just in case), no one wants mycoplasma for surely, but is this going to create a bigger superbug? I dont' know. But I will say, that if I see any of the symptoms that have been listed about mycoplasma, I think I would reach for a big gun immediately -- that would save me certainly from even thinking about reaching the big gun to kill all my birds. Or would I???? I have not ever come across any of these type of illness with my birds, but what would I do if I did? I think now that a certain paranoia has began to take place. What would I do? I honestly don't know, but you have opened the can of worms and it must be emptied. Good luck, girl, I hope and wish that this would go away and all would be rosey like it once upon a time was. Will happy Silkie ever come back? I really don't know, I hope so, she was such a bright light with all her beautiful posts and the things, like the pictures, that she brought to us, when life was happy and good, sigh. Guess I am feeling a little sad and negative, but that too shall pass. Have a great day, many things in this day that will make you smile, look to your children....CynthiaM.

I am sure that there are ways to ship liquids in the mail. I would suggest to take this to a private format, like email. This is not a shipping of dangerous goods issue, many liquids are shipped by mail that are in safe containers, think tiny flat plastic bottle. Think waterproof soap dish to house the platic bottle. Have wonderful days, to us all, CynthiaM.

I just thought I would add a couple pictures in case someone is wondering what it looks like. I've culled the worst looking of the turkeys, but if another shows the facial swelling I'll take a picture before I cull it. Most of the turkeys show some scabbing around their nostrils.

Thank you for posting such great pictures. As they say, worth a thousand words.

.