Sick Chicks. Respiratory Illness?

Denagard is a brand name for Tiamulin.

Apparently Denagard/Tiamulin can be used in the early stages of Mycoplasma as a complete cure. It can also be used monthly as a preventative.

Is this available in Canada? The info is from the UK, so just wondering if anyone knows if this is an option for us here yet.

ChicoryFarm wrote:Silkie, are you seeing an improvement or at least things not getting worse since giving them the Tylan or is it too soon to tell?

Most of my Chicks in the basement are doing a lot better! They have energy now and are running around sparing and doing little chickie things. The RIR's that I thought would be gonners are starting to eat again and walk around. The ones with the eyes swollen shut have their eyes open now.

The meat birds seem a little better, but are still coughing and sneezing. No more have died since the other day.

The turkeys while still sneezing a little don't seem as coughy, and the swelling in the eyes is going down.

I would have to say that they Tylan helped big time! Since I've started it I haven't had any more deaths.

Just so I get this straight, Tylan is different then Denagard/Tiamulin, and is not a cure, but does greatly help them?

KathyS wrote:Well that is most wonderful! A friend in need is a friend indeed. Here's hoping for healthy chicks and happier days for you, silkiebantam.

Denagard/Tiamulin is off label for chickens. Tylan is a different drug. Both are extremely effective for respiratory issues. I use both with great results. Both are very expensive but worth it. Both are very safe and the withdrawal time is small to nil as regulated in other countries. I buy both from my vet in Wetaskiwin. They just need a 1-2 day notice and will order in what I want. A small ( aspirin sized) bottle of Tylan powder is under $70. A liter jug of Denagard liquid is under $90.

I don't like to mess around with illnesses. My rabbit vet says "Hit it soon and hit it hard. Medicate well after the symptoms disappear."

Oh Silkie, that is wonderful to hear, absolutely the tylan was the helper here, I am so happy. You will see improvement day by day. I don't know enough about mycoplasma, but your birds did not necessarily have that I don't think. What is the difference between mycoplasma and respiratory illness? I have no clue about that, but I wonder if they are the same thing? That is kind of boggling, I have read about both and still don't quite get it. Oh well. Glad to hear of the positive results with the birds, a very quick response eh? Have a wonderful day, CynthiaM.

That's great. Thanks for the update. Another experience and lesson to follow in chicken land under your belt.

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I can see I have a lot to think about.

So every egg for the rest of my hens life will be infected with this? And all of her offspring will have it? Or is it only eggs that she lays during the times when she has a flare up of the disease?

It all seems so hopeless right now, to have maybe save the little chickies only to have them around for nothing (other then eating eggs) when I have brought a lot of them here to make babies with.

So lets say that I cull every bird on my place. How long would my grounds have to be poultry free before the mycroplasma dies out and it would be safe to bring more birds here?

If Denagard is a cure, then does that mean that they aren't carriers any more, or does it just cure the symptoms?

I have read that Mycroplasma is fairly common in a lot of flocks. So does this mean that (lets say I start over) that I should not be buying chicks from anyone or hatching eggs even, because there is a risk that I could contract it unknowingly from someone who doesn't know that they have it in a egg? Does this mean I should only buy chicks or eggs from a flock that is guaranteed not to have it?

silkiebantam wrote:

If Denagard is a cure, then does that mean that they aren't carriers any more

That is what the studies say...if you medicate quickly enough. But then, is it Myco that you have?

Schipperkesue wrote: But then, is it Myco that you have?

I have a long post I am making, but ya, I want to know this too. I think the only way you can find out if it is mycoplasma gallisepticum is to have a culture done. Ya, mycoplasma is a form of CRD, so now wondering if it is not myco and is another crd, is that crd with the bird for life, or only the mycoplasma crd??? Blah, so much to find and learn about now. Questions for surely, I have lots in my post I will be making this morning. Have that wonderful day, and Silkie, keep that chin up, CynthiaM.

[quote="Schipperkesue"]

silkiebantam wrote:
That is what the studies say...if you medicate quickly enough. But then, is it Myco that you have?

Well, I'm not sure that is exactly what they have. They have some of the symptoms. But the symptoms are also shared with other respiratory illness.

I guess the only way to know for sure would be to test for it.

Oh boy, this is one of the biggest can of worms that I have ever seen . I have so many comments and think now that I am taking this to a word format, as I really don't want to take a chance to lose my post. Hold on, copying and pasting what I have just wrote, smiling that big smile. But first, the quote copied -- [quote="HigginsRAT") [/quote] (the " symbols are not the same in word as forum format. There, be right back with my post information. I can see what I am going to be doing for the next hour, or better, I bet, smiling again.

HigginsRAT wrote:Be strong. Yes it is not always a happy thing doing what you believe is right and there are more than a few who will hate me for posting, but to stay silent and just say nothing, is even more criminal than spouting off. Anyone want to jump all over me, then cast the first stone if you must. I'll take it; any of it and all of it, to voice my opinion to SilkieB...she's worth it.

Your cured birds can and will continue to live on, but there is a thing in them now that will willing jump to a new host and keep this cycle of sadness ongoing. Realize that chickens can live for a long time. We must put on our adult panties and suck it up. Or do as others do, avoidance and denial...whatever!

Lash out at me if you like. Many have become very angry with my blunt statements about CRD and biosecurity and the transfer of this disorder thorough hatching eggs. I guess the messengers need to be harmed?

In my honest opinion, I am very upset that you are feeling like this. You have said things that are so important for us to understand about the severity of a very severe condition in the birds. You have brought information to the forefront that many people, certainly, do not want to hear, and others want to hear. It is a terrible thing, illness in a flock and I sit on the fence whether I want to know full well all about this frickin’ disease or not. But knowing how important it is to keep strong and healthy “things” in my life, I need to be armed with knowledge. I for one, will not want to come and hurt you, nor would I become angry with you, you are teaching something to many of us that choose to listen, and I will always listen, when I feel something that is worthy to listen to. You speak your mind. I like that. You tell it like it is, I like that. I like that you do not hold back and tell the truth about things, now whether this upsets people, it should be just sucked up, the truth hurts, as the old adage goes. Sometimes truth can be so disheartening it makes us want to dig a hole and hide in there for a while. I like that you have spoken blatently, speaking what you feel and what you know. Bring it girl!! If someone cannot take it, then that is just how life goes. Truth will set us free.
 
So I read the information in this post a couple of times and I am going to be trying to understand a little more than what was imparted in the link.

Questions will be put in order of thought.

Mycoplasma gallisepticum or another form of chronic respiratory disease? How does one know, other than a culture, and who on earth has access to that, unless spending a whole whack of money on sending stuff away. Blah.

If not mycoplasma and it is some other form of CRD, is that one that stays with the bird for life too, and it is a carrier?

If this disease is present in the flockyard, must it be assumed that all other chickens have it too?

Does the bird require to show symptoms to be a carrier of the disease? I.e., if a bird has never had symptoms, but has been around a bird with mycoplasma, is that bird a carrier?

Is a sneeze an indication of mycoplasma gallisepticum or some other CRD? I mean a sneeze, like a peecaw sound, not a cough?

End of questions I have, smiling.

I would like to know if tilmicosin (tiamulin, Denagard) has been shown to completely eradicate this disease, then why on earth would it not be the only drug to be used. Tylosil also works, they say, but no indication that it completely eradicates this disease. I am quoting again, what I had quoted before from the site that Sue listed in the previous post.

http://www.octagon-services.co.uk/articles/poultry/gallisepticum.htm

Overall, tiamulin is a highly effective antimycoplasmal antibiotic and can cause complete bacteriological cure or elimination, similar to bactericidal antimicrobials, when plasma levels in excess of the MBC are reached, especially in the early stages of infection.

Why it this not used ALL THE TIME??? Sorry, don’t get that. Can this not be stressed enough that there are studies done that this eradicates the mycoplasma gallisepticum???

Silkie, you need to look into this...this above quote says, “ESPECIALLY in the early stages, but wonder why it wouldn’t work even in cases where the disease has been brought under control, such as you using the tylan (tylosin, tylosol). Need more understanding here.

Silkie, I think you are a brave girl. You have presented something that has happened to you, which can be a thing that may cause you deep sadness. But you are learning, we are learning and you will be doing all the right things. I know from what I have gotten to know you over the internet that you are a wonderful soul, full of caring. I want the best for you and your flock and you need to find out all you can. You have a huge plate of stuff on your plate now. The more that you learn and find out about things, and impart to us too, will help us to learn as well. I want to know more, especially about the part about using Denagard (that can be available and I want to know if you treat the birds with this, after the tylan treatment maybe the disease will be gone, all gone, period. That study that I was reading indicated that all the research indicated that Denegard (tiamulin, tilmicosin) (why so many damned different names for things ) will rid the bird ( s ) of the disease and they will not carry it....is this feasible, need to know these things, sighing that big sigh...

Girl, wishing the best for you, I feel you are overwhelmed and feeling so sad and disheartened right now, sigh. Wish I could say something to bring comfort, but really, there is not much to say¸ really. But I still send wishes to find something in the day for happiness, CynthiaM.

Well said, HigginsRat...
I think the worst part of these illnesses is that there is no cut and dried solution. There is no instruction manual that you can flip open and say, "ok...this is for sure the illness my chickens have, and this is the process I must follow."
Early in the winter I had a beautiful dark blue Cochin hen that started showing symptoms of what I thought was a simple eye infection. she had the most wonderful lacing and that big saddle bump...I was excited to raise more like her. I went out one morning and her eye looked runny. I quickly brought her into the basement of the house to completely separate her from the flock. I figured even an eye infection is something I don't want to spread. I used antibiotic eye drops, but ater a couple of days there was no improvement. Soon her whole face was swelling up like a balloon and I knew it was something more serious.

I can tell you I did hours of reading, and on many forums others had the same symptoms..Coryza, mycoplasma? There are so many similar ones, it is hard to tell for sure what you are dealing with. Some forum members recommended culling entire flocks and santitizing the buildings before starting over. some others said, no, that isn't necessary, just don't be sharing any birds that have had exposure...plus many other recommendations in between those extremes.

Since this was a hen that I had recently brought onto my farm as an adult, I made the decision to cull her. No other chickens or chicks have had any symptoms like that. I feel confident that since I caught it before the hen actually became sick, and got her away from the others so quickly that it was not transmitted. Also, as she was fairly new she had not been in general population yet.

We talk about biosecurity, but sometimes we don't really know what we are dealing with. There are ugly things that can show up weeks, even months later, so even after a month-long quarantine your flock may not be safe from those unknown hidden things that come as an unexpected bonus with a new chicken or hatching eggs.

All we can do is our best to be responsible chicken keepers and breeders. I am not willing to lock my chickens in a sterile building and close up the windows to keep them safe. These are, as Higgins said the down side of the poultry hobby. I would hate to see everyone stop showing, traveling, trading or displaying their heritage breeds in fear of what they might pick up. But it is something I worry about all the time.

Take your time doing your research, Silkiebantam. It may be a good idea to talk to a poultry specialist..the Airdrie poultry vet might be a place to start. It may be necessary to sacrifice one chick for testing, but then you will know for sure.
And don't feel alone. We will all be lending support as you work your way through this.

[quote="silkiebantam"]

Schipperkesue wrote:

silkiebantam wrote:
That is what the studies say...if you medicate quickly enough. But then, is it Myco that you have?

Well, I'm not sure that is exactly what they have. They have some of the symptoms. But the symptoms are also shared with other respiratory illness.

I guess the only way to know for sure would be to test for it.

I meant to mention this before silkie. It costs $10 plus shipping (by bus) to send up to 6 birds I think, to the poultry vets at the Animal Health Branch with the BC Ministry of Agriculture. Ideally they like them freshly dead, packed in one of those styrofoam coolers with ice packs. There is a form that needs to be filled out found on their website but it's easier to just call them and get all the info you need over the phone. The number is 1-800-661-9903.

sb, I am following your thread with great interest. I am happy for you that some of the folks here are giving you guidance and support. I have read and re-read HigginsRAT post and am feeling your pain. I'm like CynthiaM when she says I like having the info put forth in a clear blunt manner, but sooo much to digest! It would be very scarey to have to deal with this. Makes me want to rethink the whole kitt'n kaboodle!! Always remember there are many people who are willing to help out in any way possible, me included!!

XOX Monika

Thank to everyone for their support. I was sooo looking forward to all the chickies this spring and the enjoyment that they always bring, but this year has just been stressful.

I mentioned getting them tested to my husband, but he really doesn't want to. He feels I've already put too much expense into the birds. But on Monday I'm going to call the number and see what it all involves. I would feel better knowing for sure what I'm dealing with. I see you say it only cost $10 plus shipping, so I think that's not a bad price at all for a little peace of mind. Do they just do a necropsy on the birds and send you the results?

I'm scared that I'll never again feel good about selling any chicks or eggs to anyone, and this is upsetting, because it was a big reason why I got into most of these birds and got my self an incubator. Talk about suck the fun right out of it.

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silkiebantam wrote:Thank to everyone for their support. I was sooo looking forward to all the chickies this spring and the enjoyment that they always bring, but this year has just been stressful.

I mentioned getting them tested to my husband, but he really doesn't want to. He feels I've already put too much expense into the birds. But on Monday I'm going to call the number and see what it all involves. I would feel better knowing for sure what I'm dealing with. I see you say it only cost $10 plus shipping, so I think that's not a bad price at all for a little peace of mind. Do they just do a necropsy on the birds and send you the results?

I'm scared that I'll never again feel good about selling any chicks or eggs to anyone, and this is upsetting, because it was a big reason why I got into most of these birds and got my self an incubator. Talk about suck the fun right out of it.

I can relate Silkie. But my situation with the mites is not feeling like I can sell anything other than chicks because I'm not sure I can guarantee no mites. And my whole chick hatching plans for myself is on hold this year because of the mites as well. I think you need to know what you're dealing with. Ask for Dr. Bill Cox at the number I gave you. I may be wrong about the number of birds you can send. It may be only 3 but I know it's $10 only. They say the more birds you can send the better and yes, they do necropsies and you just have to remember to give them your contact info because apparently sometimes they just get the birds with no info on who sent them as the person forgets that part.

Anyways, know you are not alone. I too built all these coops and hatched out all these birds and bought a cabinet incubator and now it's become this burden with the possibility I may have to depopulate and let the coops sit for a year to starve the mites. This will pass for both of us. It just wasn't our plan for this year.......maybe it's a test. Life sometimes feels like one big test.

Tara, You are a wealth of information! Thank you so much for your encouragement and advice.

You guys are so great here. It's always been a fear of mine to come on here with advice needed and to have it turn out like this. But here I am, and you guys have been so helpful.

I still don't know just what I want to do. Yesterday they got their last dose of Tylan, so we'll see...

I was thinking with any of the ones I have in the basement (Cochins, Polish, Frizzels, RIR's, EE's and BLRW's) that some of them start showing symptoms, that it might be easier to cull the ones that show them, so maybe I can weed them out... Same goes with my older birds that I've had here for quite some time. Maybe Tough love.... I don't know! There is so much I don't know! Not everyone of the chicks has shown symptoms, but does everyone of them have it? Should I just assume that they do?

I don't have enough space to have so many separate brooders, and sick places set up.

My Chicken House is basically one house with 2 sections, but are connected. The Main section has my older birds in it. I also had the meat birds chicks and turkeys in it in some grow out pens (in which they were sick) so I can assume that my entire flock has been exposed to it.

It would be nice to be able to say, "I'll just cull all my birds and start over!! and then do it! But it's not that easy. I want to very badly, but it's so hard. I'm so attached to them. Some are for breeding, some for eggs, and some are just plain lovable pets, both mine and my children's. I also have the Guinea Fowl (Who have always seemed so healthy) and I would hate to have to cull.

Tomorrow, I'll call about getting them tested and see what that involves, then decide what to do from there.

I seem to be having a rough day with it today for some reason. Most likely because I've been home and spending time with my birds. I keep trying to come up with a plan, but I just don't know to do. I had been thinking that maybe I could cull some of my spare Roo's and not sell anymore eggs or hens or bring in any new birds until these ones die out. Also Cull any that show any symptoms of illness.

Chicory, I'm so sorry for what you're going to too. It's frustrating to put that much effort, expense and love into the birds to just get rid of them. I hope that something works for you. Funny how such a small little bug can cause so much upset and heart ache.

I'm so scared of spreading this. I don't even want to visit any chicken friends just in case. I feel as if it were not just the chickens with this problem, but myself... As my husband so nicely summed it up for me the other day when I was boo hooing over it "It is what it is, and you got what you got!" So now I just have to figure out exactly what it is I've got.

So just out of curiosity before I phone about getting them tested, Has anyone here ever had birds tested before? What does it involve? Also, should the birds be freshly killed, and how best to do that without damaging the birds.

I think later, I'll go for a bit of a hike to get away and maybe take my mind off it for a bit... There's a cool metal thing I found in the bush a while ago that needs to be packed home to be added to my flower garden...

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Ah, I feel sick about this and I can't even now post in this thread because I feel so sad for you. I know you will get to the bottom of it Silkie, sigh...why do these things have to happen...please, find something that can make this day a little more bright, with happiness, look to your children...CynthiaM.

Uh....I will toss my boot into the fray.

I am having a hard time with this. Not that your birds are sick. But that it has become some huge, emotional, turmoil filled event of self evaluation, agony and almost religious soul searching. A nail biting excursion into 'do I cull, don't I cull, do I send for necropsy or not, is this the end of my chicken days'?

All of these questions are, of course, going to occur to you in a moment of flock illness. But how much personal agony you allow this to cause you...that is the question, or one of them.

Getting this disease is NOT some personal failing on your part! This disease is GLOBAL! World wide. Bigger than your back yard, your province, bigger than your country or continent. And there is little old you feeling the weight of the world on your shoulders because your birds are sick. As if this is a reflection on you as a chicken keeper and you have failed. WRONG!

Silkie, I would say, for the sake of your mental health, do not go down the path of personalizing an event that is largely beyond your control and has happened to perhaps billions of chickens over the years.

I would quote you here but I never really got the hang of that, but you were wondering if all the eggs you might sell for hatching will be contaminated. Let me ask you a question...if you kill every bird on your place, have empty buldings for a year or two, are you going to refuse to ever have chickens again based on the possibility that something might go wrong? Because that is EXACTLY what the reality is!! If you start over, there is an extreme liklihood that the eggs you get or the new birds you get have the same damn thing! It is EVERYWHERE. So, should you throw in the towel and quit keeping birds forever because it might not be a guaranteed success? So yes, your egs might contain sick birds. And then new eggs you get to start a new flock are also pretty likely to contain sick birds!

Higgins, your knowledge (and ability to use the quote function) is staggering. BUt after reading your posts, I still cannot decipher, for certain and with clarity, what it is you are trying to say? Are you telling Silkie to kill them all and build Fort Knox around the new ones? Are you telling her to realize and accept the vagaries and uncertainties of life and forge ahead? Are you telling her to dose them puppies with antibiotics now and forever as a control and preventative? I CANNOT get a clear picture of your stance, other than you, like the rest of us, struggle with where you draw your personal line. And that decision is just that, personal. And a struggle.

Silkie, if I was in your kitchen having coffee with you, this would be my advice to you: Treat them. Give them the recommended dose for the suggested time and after that...it's out of your hands. If htey live, they live, if they die, they die. If they live with the odd recurrence of symptoms, well, so they get symptoms. It's annoying but not fatal. Like how I feel about the common cold. Annoying, but rarely fatal...also not eradicated...also recurring...also global....and no reason to quit life because you might get a cold.

The eggs you bought came with NO GUARANTEE of disease free and it is not your personal torch to bear to send out into the world eggs that you can guarantee as disease free. Because NO ONE ON THIS SITE can make that claim, nor would I expect them to! You do have an obligation to not send out eggs from a hen who is so sick you have to prop her up with sticks to keep her on the nest. You do have an obligation to take all steps reasonable to ensure a healthy flock. But to cull your whole flock with the idea that this extreme step will buy you some sort of absolution from the chicken gods and you will be granted a disease free flock ever after, is crazy.

I will state that if you keep birds, just as Higgins said, LIVEstock can become DEADstock. But I would only take the radical cull step if it guaranteed you a problem free start over. But it does not. So what would you gain?

It is my belief that birds who have this and recover are STRONGER, have a fighters; constitution. Give your birds every chance and every boost to live. Then realize that doing your best IS good enough. I would only cull those who continue to be droopy sickies. And after that...enjpoy them, they will be alive and act/look like chickens.

You did not invent this disease, you will not cure this disease, you will never be truly protected from this disease and starting over is just spinning your wheels, in my humble and rambling opinion. And if you are willing to admit that your flock has it, in all honesty most of us should admit that our flocks probably have had it too!

Do NOT agonize more than you have to.

This stuff is of vital interest to any of us in this hobby/business.
Been following it with mixture of interest/horror and of course utmost empathy for silkie and all of us that struggle at any time with animal illnessess....

My question though is IF these diseases are so prevalent and contagious, and since there is no
way I believe we can keep ourselves and our flocks totally free of them
(even w/ flight netting you cant tell me one wild bird wont come perch on top one day and unless we hermitize ourselves completely there is always a risk)

so why aren't we trying to breed disease resistant birds that may be able to overcome some of this nasty stuff one day instead?

Seems like we can vaccinate our own flocks for some stuff and reduce exposure to possible vectors a bit but really it is impossible to have zero exposure anyhow.. so why not work on the resistant aspect instead?

Miry: YES! YES! And again she shouts YES!

Chickens are NOT china figurines, in my radical opinion, and allowing them to battle out their own illnesses (with in reason) has always seemed to me so much better. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

I was mortified when the CFIA and govt slaughtered every bird for MILES down at the coast when Avian Influenza hit. Good lord, we NEED survivors! We NEED birds who are not weak, pretty, lumps of plummage, sitting ducks for every germ that falls on their fluffy little heads! No! We need birds who are FIGHTERS, and you don't get those with radical bio-security measures.

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