Stupid Canada Post?...wait till you hear about UPS!

So where/when then, does welfare for these chicks come into play?

TysExotics wrote:As bad as this was, I don't want to be to hard on, or cause any grief towards McMurray. Or they will stop sending chicks to Canada like the other 4 hatcheries that we have lost in the last 4 years...

I agree, it's sad that it happened, but there is already not much left.
Seriously Ty, you should set up something like that
I'm wondering, if they send a replacement order, who pays the healthpapers and shipping cost?

Anna, Expecting McMurray to come good with a replacement order is like asking me to pay for your car repair when your neighbor crashed into your parked car. They had nothing to do with it. I agree with Ty , we better not put too much pressure on the hatcheries who ship to Canada or it will end pretty fast.

In light of this latest US/Canada shipping debacle, why would anyone want to repeat this? Why aren't more people breeding there own stock as opposed to importing each year for re sale? If welfare to the birds matters at all, I don"t understand how this is not a simple question. Is it a question of $$ vs diligent hard work? I realize keeping breeding flocks costs a lot of time and money, but why is there this need to ship so many chicks when one can breed their own?

McMurray is fantastic to deal with when it comes down to these situations. They are replacing my order and covering all costs. Because I have decided to order additional different chicks, they are requiring that I pay the health papers, which I have no problem with. If I only wanted the replacement chicks, they would pay for the health papers. Susan your questions are a bit off topic for the thread, but without additional bloodlines coming into Canada - do you know how inbred the populations would be? The little networks within Canada where breeders raise the same breed as one another, and then swap eggs back and forth does not do much. Those who import eggs or adults are doing a favour to the breed (s). But as far as the average person seeking out expensive unrelated eggs from half way across the country, is unlikely.

So hatchery stock is the answer to our "little networks within Canada"? Really? We are so unable to support quality stock in this country, we must rely on another, where half the stock dies in attempts to get it here? No thank you. And I would disagree that this is off topic. The need (want?) To import is based on what? What exactly are you doing for these breeds? How are you furthering their development? Is this for the birds, or the almighty dollar, let's be real here.

Hatchery stock is where most peoples stock starts. Lots of people don't want to admit it but the american hatchery stock is very close to the show birds up here. I could list off 10 people EASY on this forum who enter hatchery quality stock in the Red Deer show, and won best of breed. Don't get me wrong, there are many people with superior quality birds. There are many people that want good birds, but not show birds. Susan you are only bringing up this topic because you and your idol don't like me.. I guess everyone who lives near the border, and imports chicks should be ashamed of themselves? What am I doing for these breeds? Making them known in the poultry world! How many people have flocks of Madagascar Games, La Fleche...etc? No one, without the american hatcheries people in Canada wont/don't even know they exist.

Susan wrote:The need (want?) To import is based on what?

New stock has to come from somewhere.
Here is my situation. i am getting a dozen eggs from a breeder. Now I since none of her lines are separated I have to treat these chicks as if they are siblings. For all I know they are out of the same 2 birds. So, what do I do? breed brother and sister together. Even if i did where do I go after that? You can't go on breeding the same birds together. This could be a moot point with my luck they will all be roosters! I have done father/daughter and mother/son breedings in dogs. One of 2 things will happen. You will get very very good offspring or very very bad offspring. I have done very well doing these breedings. How it works in chickens I have no idea.
Geri

Also Susan - this does not happen all the time. Do you think anyone would import birds if they were going to loose 500 or more? This is a huge disaster. And yes, you are off topic, I posted about the mistake/ridiculous actions made by USPS. Which has nothing to do with your personal opinions in regards to importing unrelated stock. Due to the large numbers of breeders in the US, they can sustain unrelated superior quality flocks easier. Canada on its own can not sustain this.

TysExotics wrote:Hatchery stock is where most peoples stock starts. Lots of people don't want to admit it but the american hatchery stock is very close to the show birds up here. I could list off 10 people EASY on this forum who enter hatchery quality stock in the Red Deer show, and won best of breed. Don't get me wrong, there are many people with superior quality birds. There are many people that want good birds, but not show birds. Susan you are only bringing up this topic because you and your idol don't like me.. I guess everyone who lives near the border, and imports chicks should be ashamed of themselves? What am I doing for these breeds? Making them known in the poultry world! How many people have flocks of Madagascar Games, La Fleche...etc? No one, without the american hatcheries people in Canada wont/don't even know they exist.

I assure you Ty, my opinions are my my own. I really don't believe that as Canadians we can't propagate our own birds. It is ridiculous to have to rely on middlemen, such as yourself and is unnecessary to the betterment of the breeds to look elsewhere, when we can find great breeds within our own country and for less cost to the birds welfare than by importing

Susan you clearly do not understand the concept of genetic diversity. It amazes me that you don't understand it. This debate is a lost cause... You will soon realize, with more experience that outsourcing genetics from other countries is necessary. Actually- something that might grab your attention. Your EO's that you are trying to improve/breed... your telling me the breed will be successful without adding genetic diversity? And there are not enough unrelated birds in Canada to last very long. My importation of 48 EO eggs on March 7 will enhance the breed leaps and bounds more than crossing the same birds over and over....

Maybe I am crazy...

Ty I am glad to hear they are fixing this issue for you by resending your birds. I don't like to nit pick the hatcheries either, but USPS does need to be notified of their problems, so it does not happen again.
I remember an order we did together years ago and when you went down in March to get the chicks they were sitting outside on the dock, for who knows how long, in the cold and wind. I really think that USPS station at Sweetgrass needs to be written up for sure, so they do not continue to do these stupid things.

ON the other topic brought in on this one about importing and how it is so wrong, I do have to disagree. Even show people import birds, as adults, as youngsters, whatever. It is to help expand the breeds here in Canada. We would be hard pressed to continue breeding between the few of us there are. I have found the difficulties of getting eggs from out East, from trying to get birds/chicks flown out from great breeders, it just doesnt happen that often. With myself, like Ty, we are close to the boarder it is so much easier to just go bring them across. I do small amounts each year to spread out the genetics in my flocks, lately I try to do imports from specific breed breeders (ie. my ameraucanas), but people should not be shunned because they are bringing in a variety of breeds that might be very hard to source here in Canada.

I am not sure what all the issue have been lately about people selling birds, weather imported and resold or just raised and sold, some people are in the chicken business to have fun, other's need to break even, and then other's yet have found a way to make a bit of money. Nobody is wrong in their thinking, to each their own I say.

Well said Hidden.

New blood is extremely important. I have spent two months hunting all over Canada for several breeds. Some breeds are almost totally gone in Canada.

Perry

exacly i am getting slc from ty as i have yet to find another breeder in canada? and i need new blood with these guys...

I understand the need for new blood absolutely, and concede that yes, the States, has more diversity due to shear numbers. Its just the frequency of these big orders going wrong that strikes me as so inhumane. I got my back up last night after reading posts about how the SPCA should be notified (which I agree) and then it was stated, that it was better not to rock the boat and just get more. That is really the issue that needs to be addressed.

TysExotics wrote:My importation of 48 EO eggs on March 7 will enhance the breed leaps and bounds more than crossing the same birds over and over.....

Ty where are you importing EOs from and what color variety? That is very exciting news if you will be obtaining some new blood!

On the main topic of this thread, perhaps it is the time of year (still being winter) that is exasperating this situation? Although I completely understand wanting to get birds started early for sales etc. I would imagine late March or April might make it easier weather wise?

I hope some of your chicks make it Ty, that is very sad to here them go through that.

"Ahh, the old don't want to rock the boat line" as long as we get our perscribed loads of chicks for the sales, and after all the chicks will be replaced, This matter should be reported to the SPCA if anyone had a conscience and wasn't so interested in interuppting the desire to make money. Very Sad, that the lives of these chicks is so throw away, all about money not breed diversity or the welfare of the chicks would be first. Big Business.
Just my opinion and such a disappointment that people don't feel at all bad for the lives of these babies as long as they are replaced for the sales.

My last and only word on this sad subject!!

Heather

1100 chicks! All I have to say is WOW! What do you do with all of them? I have a specialised breeder I am thinking of ordering from and I was thinking 100 chicks is to much all in one shot. I can't imagine what I would even do with 500 chicks that survived this order.

For myself, I wouldn't order chicks at this time of year just because I would be scared of something like this happening.It's the same reason I hatch later than most people, I'm nervous of power failure turning off my brooder.

But then I only keep birds for myself and have no markets or sales to think about.

Me too. But I do rely on people like Ty to sell me birds later in the spring.

The EO's are coming from Georgia.

Sheesh, you'd think I was the one who left them out in the cold. Its sad that this has happened, unfortunately USPS is a huge corporation and some little albertan, who complains that their chicks where put outside, is not going to make a difference, they will say we are sorry and that will be that. I have informed McMurray and if they choose to pursue it further that is something they can do, and will have a larger impact, as they ship millions of chicks. Ordering this time of year has no impact on the survival of the chicks because in normal situations they would be inside a box van. I have had chicks arrive in -25 and had just a couple of loss's... there is a higher likelihood the temperatures will be colder come March/April than they are now... Its in the double digits here! Cant beat that. Heather its sad that you don't believe that this is helping the genetics of these breeds, people have to get their birds somehow... and with my experience many of the "show" breeders don't feel necessary to respond to emails or inquiries, so its hard to obtain stock. Whether I make a couple dollars or not has no impact on the situation, I put huge amounts of time and effort into making this happen... I ship chicks all over Canada, 1100 chicks is not many, that many will only last 2 weeks, demand is huge. People simply can not find birds. And some people want good birds, but dont want to pay $200 for a pair of show quality birds, which are just as tasty to the coyotes.

Those of you who appreciate and use what I offer, thank you!

TysExotics wrote:Susan you clearly do not understand the concept of genetic diversity. It amazes me that you don't understand it. This debate is a lost cause... You will soon realize, with more experience that outsourcing genetics from other countries is necessary. Actually- something that might grab your attention. Your EO's that you are trying to improve/breed... your telling me the breed will be successful without adding genetic diversity? And there are not enough unrelated birds in Canada to last very long. My importation of 48 EO eggs on March 7 will enhance the breed leaps and bounds more than crossing the same birds over and over....

Maybe I am crazy...

Georgia, you say...... Don't suppose you asked them where their stock came from? Lol.

? I dont understand whats funny... They told me where their stock came from? ...approx. 50% of their flock came from somewhere in "Europe" with a high percentage originating in Spain. The other 50% comes from other breeders throughout the US. He says eggs will be included from individual lines, and combinations....

Also getting a limited number (4-6) chocolate orpingtons from him...

I admire your dedication to helping us save this incredibly rare breed for sure. Yes this new blood from Spain and US breeders will be wonderful. Who are the US breeders bTW?