Breeding Q&A

I think this is a very informative topic as well, and Heather you are never long winded, always nice to hear words of wisdom for us starting out.
May I ask how big your breeding pens are for a single hen mating though? I am tearing apart my main coop this summer and revamping it, so just wondering what size of pens a person would be looking at?

Coopslave, If you only had 2 males that were worthy so be it. I would never condone keeping any male just for the case of keeping it as a backup. I personally always have more males than I need but all are excellent specimuns of their breeds. I will sometimes be a little more forgiving on my girls but not my boys, if I don't feel they are the best they can be they are culled out and my culls do not go to other breeders. I have alsways said if a boy isn't one I would consider keeping in my own breeding program then it not good enough to sell to anyone, you have to set the bar higher to excell. When judging trio's at show's the male is 50% of your pen.

I always tell people who are setting up a beginning true breeding program, even if you are only starting with a trio(2 pair is always better, then you can easily make families) you should try and hatch out as many as you can, or have room for though the summer and fall. I will easily hatch 30 from a pair or 40 from a trio if your pens are set up right. Then grow those young ones out and don't look at them till fall except for things like crooked toes,side sprigs or such. Then in the fall try to pick your keepers or narrow it down to give everyone more room. From those breedings try to find 3 or 4 keeper males and get rid of the rest. But once again if they ain't worth keeping don't.

Coopslave I can tell from some of the pictures I have seen of your birds in Aust. that you didn't achieve those by keeping crappy males. But from your last post this is excatly why one must keep more males than one needs. If anyone has a breeding program going and for any number of reasons lose your male or no fertility then here you are running around trying to find a male and likely ending up with something less in quality then one might want and setting your program back by who knows how long.

I personally have some males who might no make it into my breeding program till they are 3 or so but I have them just in case.

My breeding pens vary in size Hidden but for the bantams are about 2X3ft but could be slightly smaller. For my large fowl I actually have portable pens that I can set up in my breeding room on the floor for each female and it gives each female lots of room and they can roost. One must remember they are not in these pens all their lives but maybe 1 month a year if that. All pens have roosts and plastic tubs for nest boxes. After the breeding season the whole room is completely cleaned out and the nest boxes removed and starting in August they become condition pens for my bantam males.

Heather

Heather, I agree with Hidden re you not being remotely long winded. In fact, you are giving us invaluable information that is going to save us a great deal of time spent trying different things out for ourselves that may or may not work. I really appreciate the time you are taking with us to give us your insight into breeding.

I love the single mating routine that you have devised. It makes such perfect sense. The portable LF breeding pens are also a wonderful idea. To say nothing about your comments on the roosters......

Frankly, reading this thread keeps my enthusiasm at fever pitch. Knowing that there are others out there at different starting levels, trying to absorb all this knowledge and coming up with similar questions is also a bonus. TOO BAD THAT YOU ARE ALL OUT WEST!!!!! It's so lonely over here in Ontario.

Frankly, reading this thread keeps my enthusiasm at fever pitch.

I feel the exact same way granschickens. I never thought I’d be so anxious for my Ameraucana chicks to grow up already. LoL

ChicoryFarm wrote:I'd also like to thank everyone again for your knowledge and experience as well as the respectful way of delivering the information. Topics like these have gone sideways on other forums and it's so great to know our members can share their thoughts and opinions with such maturity, diplomacy and respect.

LONG LIVE WCPS!

DITTO, DITTO, DITTO!!!

This forum totally rocks. As do all the peeps here. I’m so glad I was given directions.

Granschickens- remember we are just a click of the mouse away.
My breeding methods may not work for everyone but they have worked for me and my only hope by sharing a little of what has worked for me is that someone will set that bar where mine is set. So maybe I will plant a seed in someones mind like my mentor did for me. Remember everyone read your breed standards and take that book out to your pens and try to compare your birds to the standard.
One last word of wisdom that my mentor told me when I first started and it has stuck with me is that IT COSTS JUST AS MUCH TO FEED A GOOD BIRD AS IT DOES A POOR ONE SO WHY NOT HAVE THE BEST YOU CAN. Get rid of junk and don't pass it on to other people who are trying to build up decent flocks.
My large fowl females who don't make the grade go to people I know for a fact only want pretty egg layers the males are disposed of.
Have a good evening everyone

Heather

Very good points Heather. I think another good thing to remember is a good breeder`s culls are sometimes a very good way to start your own breeding program. They have usually done a lot of the tough work already and just cause those pullets will not fit into their program it doesn`t mean that it is not a very good start for someone else.(reading back I see this is something Heather and I may disagree about )

Rarely do breeders sell their best birds, but they are often willing to sell very good birds that will equal their best with some good breeding practices. I have often given decent birds away to people that are showing a passion for the breed I am working on. It is a good safety so my bloodlines are spread around a bit. If I was wiped out by a predator, I am able to get some of my hard work back again without starting over.

My first steps into purebred breeding started with a reputable breeder`s `culls`, and with the help of a few mentors I learned alot about the birds I started with and how to make them better. Heather is right, help is only a click away, we just have to be willing to hear different things and then make our minds up.

I have enjoyed this thread a great deal. Sharing things I have learned is something I really like to do and I feel I have learn a few new things as well. I also don`t mind a difference of opinion as I think it stretches our minds a bit and lets us see things in a different way. Thanks everyone!

Coopslave - I'm still curious as to what it was that I said that you disagreed with?
I agree that inbreeding can be a useful tool for identifying, isolating and removing unwanted genes from your flock, when followed by heavy culling. I suggest that one should be cautious about what one does with the culls, though. I agree that the right ones could make a good contribution to someone else's breeding program. However selling culls to folks for their backyard flocks has a possible downside, as they are, of course, inbred.
There is no doubt that inbreeding causes loss of vigour, on average. Heavy culling of the less vigorous is the only way to counteract this.
Several years ago, I bought two beautiful pullets and a handsome cockerel from a well-respected breeder who inbreeds intensely. Both pullets and the cockerel died of unknown causes within 6-8 months, while the rest of my flock lived on happily (I have several birds who are over than eight years old). While this is no proof, I strongly suspect that these birds died because of inbreeding depression. I have heard many similar stories from others.
I suggest that inbred birds should be sold only if they are large and vigorous for their breed, and that the buyer should always be told that that they are inbred.

Next question Heather,

When you record your breeding and hatching info, do you use a page per per bird? Then enter matings, eggs, fertility, hatch, etc? Then group by line? Do you use excel?

Sandy

ipf wrote:Coopslave - I'm still curious as to what it was that I said that you disagreed with?
I agree that inbreeding can be a useful tool for identifying, isolating and removing unwanted genes from your flock, when followed by heavy culling. I suggest that one should be cautious about what one does with the culls, though. I agree that the right ones could make a good contribution to someone else's breeding program. However selling culls to folks for their backyard flocks has a possible downside, as they are, of course, inbred.
There is no doubt that inbreeding causes loss of vigour, on average. Heavy culling of the less vigorous is the only way to counteract this.
Several years ago, I bought two beautiful pullets and a handsome cockerel from a well-respected breeder who inbreeds intensely. Both pullets and the cockerel died of unknown causes within 6-8 months, while the rest of my flock lived on happily (I have several birds who are over than eight years old). While this is no proof, I strongly suspect that these birds died because of inbreeding depression. I have heard many similar stories from others.
I suggest that inbred birds should be sold only if they are large and vigorous for their breed, and that the buyer should always be told that that they are inbred.

I disagree that proper, educated line breeding or in breeding causes loss of vigour, size and fertility. I also disagree that you will have to cull heavier if you use this practise. I had to cull far heavier when outcrossing than I ever did line breeding. You pullet and cockerel could have died of many different things, like not having an immunity to whatever your flock has developed one to on your place, and it is not necessarily inbreeding depression that could have caused it.
I am just stating that personally, breeding birds for the last 12 years and using this practise, I have never had problems like the ones you state. That is all I am going by, my personal experience with it.
The only birds I would ever sell to anyone are ones that are healthy and vigorous and I have no problem telling anyone my breeding practises.
I think if you really want to stay away from inbreeding you should only buy cross bred birds and stay away from purebreds. That is your only real guarantee it is not in your birds.

We can agree to disagree, but the scientific literature is verbose, eloquent and certain on the subject. Inbreeding without culling reduces average fitness. Some species are, however, more strongly affected than others.

Wikipedia says "Inbreeding is the reproduction from the mating of two genetically related parents, which can increase the chances of offspring being affected by recessive or deleterious traits. This generally leads to a decreased fitness of a population, which is called inbreeding depression. Deleterious alleles causing inbreeding depression can subsequently be removed through culling, which is also known as genetic purging.

Livestock breeders often practice controlled breeding to eliminate undesirable characteristics within a population, which is also coupled with culling of what is considered unfit offspring, especially when trying to establish a new and desirable trait in the stock. . . . Inbreeding may result in a far higher phenotypic expression of deleterious recessive genes within a population than would normally be expected. As a result, first-generation inbred individuals are more likely to show physical and health defects, including:
Reduced fertility both in litter size and sperm viability
Increased genetic disorders
Fluctuating facial asymmetry
Lower birth rate
Higher infant mortality
Slower growth rate
Smaller adult size
Loss of immune system function"

Note that individuals are not simply "inbred" "or non-inbred" (I'm sure you know this, coopslave, but some others might not). Inbreeding is measured through the inbreeding coefficient, which ranges from 0 to 1. The higher the value, the more inbred. Full siblings with unrelated parents (even if highly inbred themselves) have an inbreeding coefficient of 0.25. Half-siblings, 0.125. First cousins, 0.0625.

I agree that, in theory, those birds could have died from some disease my flock had grown immune to. However, I've brought in many new birds from trusted sources over the years, and have never had that happen again. As I said, I've heard many similar stories.

Actually Coopslave we do do agree, when I say cull bird I mean birds without good type or things that are important within a breed such as let's say width of head in a Brahma be L.F or Bantam. If they don't have certain traits and if the person you are purchasing from dosn't know how to properly match up the bird's for a breeding pen it will add years to setting a breeding program and you may be no futher ahead than having nice purebred birds. I think it is very imortant that any bird should have something to offer in the breeding pen and more so the male and seeing how none of us has yet to produce the perfect bird, you have to weigh the seriousness of the shortcomings. Type being the most iimportant, not excellent type it should and will be culled here.

So this is why I only sell young adults or adults as I just don't go out and catch 2 birds out of a pen, I take all I have avilable for sale put them in pens that are eye higher up and try to match up birds that don't have the same failings. It is very improtant that birds for breeding do not share the same fualts. It is important as this is how things are set in your line and some you may never get rid of. I practice this same policy when setting up my own breeding pens.

I think that anyone that thinks every bird they produce is good enough for someone else has their heads in the clouds, as I would say even with the high standards I have set for my birds a good number do not deserve to be in breeding pens. I often get people who come to me to purchase a pair or trio, which is great but then they take that same male home and breed it to the hatchery grade females they have too. I say to them that first off anything can happen because of it being a total outcross and secondly expecting this poor male to fix or breed up these less than stellar females, well it just isn't going to happen. You have to start with something that is a decent representation of their breed and so many are not!!

So I will stick to my motto"If it good enough for my breeing barn it is not good enough for yours" And by that I mean I do have birds that are very good and for one reason or another don't fit into where I am striving to get but are good birds and another time I would consider keeping them, Those are offered for sale. Other birds have failings that I feel are going to be too hard for the average person to overcome, you are the breeder and it's up to you to know what those things are for your breed and I am not talking Disqualifing faults(which culling for should be a given) they maybe color faults or type issues or the like, birds like this in my flock are "culls" and are disposed of. There is no point taking a bird with the most fabulous head, but is lacking in breed type and balance and taking that bird and selling it or giving it to anyone.

I actually never consider the birds I sell as my culls but birds that for one or two small reasons don't quite fit here, but will give some a great start at producing something as good as I have in a generation when paired with a compatible female. My "culls" are gone.
So that's my take on what a "cull" is and just because ets say it is definitely a Light Brown Leghorn does not mean you should breed from it. So Coopslave I think we do agree?

Heather

ipf wrote:We can agree to disagree, but the scientific literature is verbose, eloquent and certain on the subject. Inbreeding without culling reduces average fitness. Some species are, however, more strongly affected than others.

Important I think. It also seems to have less affect on chickens than other species.

Note that individuals are not simply "inbred" "or non-inbred" (I'm sure you know this, coopslave, but some others might not). Inbreeding is measured through the inbreeding coefficient, which ranges from 0 to 1. The higher the value, the more inbred. Full siblings with unrelated parents (even if highly inbred themselves) have an inbreeding coefficient of 0.25. Half-siblings, 0.125. First cousins, 0.0625.

Very good information and a good point. I think you will find 'inbreeding' in many domesticated species and it is about management, thought with a goal and not just doing it 'because'. It helps with predictabliliy within a breed so the results are not so random.

It is such a valuable tool to breed out things you don't want and to solidify things that are important to you (including vigor and size).

Heather, I think you are right, we do agree. I would like to see yours birds some day. I only hope I can get mine as uniform as yours sound. I will keep dreaming!!

Yes, exactly. I would even go further and say that inbreeding is probably used in all domesticated species, to fix traits. And I agree that chickens are less severely affected than other species; that is in the literature too. However that's not to say they aren't affected at all.

It's inbreeding for convenience that I take greatest objection to; e.g. folks that sell three full sibs as a "breeding trio".

Inbreeding is undeniably a great tool, but needs to be used with care, knowledge and attention (and, IMO, culling).

Thanks for posting all of this wonderful information. It is so reassuring to have such knowledgeable people within reach! The comments here have given me much to think about

Grans chickens - My husband does an excell type sheet I think. He does a new sheet for every week as we set eggs every Saturday and on that sheet he will have a column with all of my matings for that week as I number each pen for example BlackOEG male line-band # X band # he then has a columns for the number of eggs from each pen, number of fertiles, number hatched as well he notes date when that weeks eggs come out and which incubator and shelve number. This is just done on a ordinary sized computer paper and when we are really in the hatching mode we will have more than 1 sheet per week. At the end of a weeks hatch he has a spread sheet with all the pens on it and he enters the number hatched from each pen, so I always have a running number of the amount of chicks and which breeding pens they are from, so when I have enough I can take the pens apart. and at the end of the season I know preety much excatly how many and what type of chicks I have. It's very easy once you are set up on your computer. We then print out the sheets and keep them in a binder.

Coopslave- I was very lucky in my beginning years to have mentors who had high quality stock and were all willing to share with me when I sort of earned my stripes, but that being said I am still learning and have the privilage though my showing and judging to pick the minds of some of the best older stringmen and breeders out there. We have lost in recent years many of the greatest breeders of many breeds but I have been very lucky to have met and talked and competed with many of them.

Heather

This thread has given me a lot to think about as well. Some things off the top of my head:

Start with the best possible stock. Go quality or go home. Cull heavily.
Set high standards. Keep only the best, cull the rest.
No mating unknown or new blood without first testing. Cull heavily.
Line breed with utmost care and caution. Cull heavily.
Smaller breeder pens, one on one mating, larger grow out pens. Cull heavily.
Be prepared to cull heavily. Again and again and again.
Cull does not necessarily mean kill, but be careful not to flood the market with inferior stock.
Keep records of everything.


We are very lucky to have you here Heather. Thanks again everyone!

Do keep in mind that there are two completely different kinds of "inferiority" being discussed here.
One relates to the standard, and how close to, (or far from) the standard the bird in question is.
The second relates to the ill effects of inbreeding, and is harder to recognise, but FAR more important when considering whether to sell your culls.

A bird could be inferior in one way and not the other, or in both, or (best of all, of course) neither. But there is no intrinsic connection between them.

Duly noted ipf.

Whew! What a lot to absorb. Will be back to this thread. Re line breeding vs outcrossing producing more culls I think when you add new blood you disturb the genetic stability of the bloodline so even if you use the very best stock you will still get more culls. Of course theoretically, if you cross two perfect birds you'll have perfect offspring, but we know that even the best birds have hidden weaknesses, and when you stir the water you raise the mud. I'm not an expert, just sayin what I think.

Thanks for everyone's input. There's a lot of useful information here.

Thanks for bringing this back samwise, I have enjoyed reading it again!

Hi samwise, yes it is a lot to take in and good timing that you brought it back to the forefront (for me to read). It is giving me a lot to think about.

XOX Monika

Could you explain, please, what you mean by "when you add new blood you disturb the genetic stability of the bloodline"?

This was a great thread wasn't it. I was glad to read though it again.

Heather

ipf I will try to explain myself. Correct me if I'm wrong but when you line breed you are essentially using the same genetic material over and over again. Now when you outcross you are adding new genetics which will combine with the old, possibly giving unexpected results. Then in the F2 generation the genes segregate, expressing even more variety, and requiring a few more generations of careful selection to stabilize. This is what I have learned about plant breeding (from reading, not experience) and I imagine it would be similar with animals/birds. As a geneticist ipf I'm sure you know much more about this subject than I do, but I'm ready to learn.

You outcross when you need something that is lacking in the line to something good that has the trait you are looking for. Then you "fix" it by breeding back (line-breed) and keep the ones that show that new or better trait and also carry the good / wanted traits that you have in your line. Fertility and vigor are things that you can also select for and you should always take health and vigor as a priority.
Breeding "up to standard pure bred man made animals" is almost impossible to do without line-breeding as they were all created doing so and still need the human selector just like they always have.