Breeding Q&A

Ever since I discovered my enthusiasm for poultry, I’ve known I wanted to get into breeding eventually. I’ve fed my hobby for a few years now but the time is a coming where I’d like to get more serious. Probably next summer/fall, which gives me ample time to prepare and learn some of what I’ll need to know to get started.

The breeds I’d like to work with are LF Ameraucana (B/B/S and W/BW) and Plymouth Barred Rocks. I’m also thinking Sussex down the road, depending if I have the time, desire and space available. I will be getting some Sussex chickens for fun though.

And please excuse the silly questions I’m bound to ask. Truthfully I know very little about breeding and genetics, though I am eager and excited to learn.

1. Where can I get a copy of the most recent edition of the APA standard of perfection, preferably in Canada?

2. Can anyone recommend any websites or books about chicken genetics that are in layman terms? Or good books about breeding in general?

3. From what I understand "backcrossing" is breeding fathers to daughters to concentrate the gene pool, so when does backcrossing become inbreeding? Is it ever ok to breed full siblings or is this always considered a no-no?

4. What exactly constitutes a line? How many lines/families should be kept per breed?

For example; I have B/B/S Ameraucana chicks I hatched from Hidden that come from a few different lines. So can I safely and truthfully say I have Hidden River's line? Is this right? Also, I plan on keeping the 2 best roos and finding (or hatching) them some unrelated pullets next spring. I also plan to keep the best hens and find them an unrelated rooster. This would give me a few different families that weren’t too closely related…or would it? How close is too close?


More questions to come. And please feel free to ask your own.

I got my Standard from C. Botkin in BC.
I can hopefully help you with an unrelated balck roo later this year as well. Imported this spring from Chick hatchery, John Blehm this spring. Just have to wait till they mature out, sex, and see quality.
Sounds like you have quite the start of a plan. I don't know a lot about the line or in breeding but hopefully someone can help with that.

Inbreeding is, quite simply, mating between related individuals. The progeny are then referred to as inbred. Non-inbred individuals are referred to as outcrossed.

Yes, backcrossing is inbreeding.

Mating to birds that are not only inbred but related to each other accentautes the effects of inbreeding.

Inbreeding reduces vigour, fertility, liveability, productivity, and pretty much anything else we care about. Inbreeding and its effects are a continuum; a little inbreeding may produce no noticeable effect, while a lot (continued mating among inbred relatives over generations) will definitely have bad effects.

Inbreeding will result in the expression of deleterious genes. This is either good, if you see it as a way of identifying carriers of deleterious alleles so that you can remove the carriers from the gene pool (as many serious breeders do), or bad, if you expect most of your chicks to grow up to be normal productive chickens (as some “breeders” do, and then sell them to unsuspecting purchasers).

Inbred birds will invariably, on average, be smaller, less healthy, less productive and less fertile than their outcrossed buddies. Don’t take my word for it; the literature is full of supporting evidence. However, this is “on average”. There may, if you’re lucky, be one or two individuals who are exceptionally good. Or not.

If you use inbreeding as a breeding tool, you absolutely have to cull, and heavily. This means killing large numbers of chicks. It also means not allowing the parents of defective chicks to mate again, since they have proven to both carry a defective gene.

Inbreeding is a tool used in breeding for specific traits. It is not something to be done for convenience.

Flicker thanks for taking the time to post this thread. I am very interested as well......very. Your questions are great and many thanks to the responders.

Hidden, what is the exact title (and subtitle) of the APA book if you don't mind? And is it a 2010 or 2011 edition?

I want to check it out at the library.

Ipf so very glad you are willing to share some of your knowledge.

Flicker chick, a very deep question you have asked.


My understanding is if you only have siblings then you mate them. And expect to cull heavily. Then the next year mate father to daughter and mother to son. New blood is always best but if you do not have the luxury a few generations in the above manner without inbreedingdepression (loss of fertility and vigor) can generally be achieved.

Quote: "if you do not have the luxury a few generations in the above manner without inbreeding depression (loss of fertility and vigor) can generally be achieved"

You WILL lose fertility and vigour if you inbreed without heavy culling. Mild inbreeding has milder effects; heavy inbreeding has large effects. but inbreeding has deleterious effects, period.

I disagree with some of what ipf says. I am not up to vigorous debate at the moment, usually I am. Please research a bit and understand there is more than one opinion on this.

I too am open to debate. . . what exactly is it that you disagree with? THere are so many complexities and nuances to this inbreeding issue.

Thank you everyone for taking the time to response to my questions.


Hidden: That would be great! John Blehm's Ameraucanas are Do you think you might be importing from him again in the future? Because I'd love to get in on that. Please do let me know if you end up having an extra rooster for sale. And thanks for the tip on where to find an APA standard.

Ipf: I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the subject. From what I gather inbreeding is akin to a double edged sword. In the wrong hands it can be a dangerous weapon. In the right hands it can be a useful, albeit still sharp, tool. My main goal in starting a breeding project is to produce large, “dual-purpose birds” true to their breed standards. I like a chicken with a purpose, not just for looks, although that does have its place too. I thought by creating different “families” a few generations removed, as well as bringing in new blood regularly, I could deepen the gene pool enough to avoid inbreeding depression and all the nasties that go along with. I have an awful lot to learn.

Chicory: Fascinating stuff isn’t it? I never even thought of the library having such a book. You’re one smart cookie! I’m going to check with mine as well.

Poplar girl: Yes, I guess I should have known this might be a sensitive topic. But I don’t see why we can’t discuss stuff even when we don’t agree, ya know? The best learning comes from trial and error after all. And I figure who better to ask then the people who’ve been there before me.

Coopslave. I am very interested in hearing your opinions on the subject when you’re feeling more up to it. No pressure, please take your time. I will continue to research and read everything I can. Even though I often end up feeling overwhelmed by the sheer amount of contradicting information out there. What I need is Chicken Genetics for Dummies. LoL

Flicker chick all your questions were good ones and well asked as far as I am concerned.
And differences of opinion can promote good discussion as long as everyone realizes that the point is not to agree on everything but to discuss and learn.

Here is a link to some info for your reading pleasure:
http://sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page1.html

This year with silver grey dorkings I mated 2 sisters to their brother. The chicks are all very healthy accept for 1 little rooster who was near sighted. But I have lots of defects showing up: side sprigs, horrible 5th toe, size differences, etc. That said I think of 20 chicks a couple will be worth keeping.

My other mating was the same rooster to an unrelated hatchery hen. Of 13 eggs only 5 hatched and I had to cull 3 of five chicks. Two with horrible splay legs, one just was so weak it was dying. The other two chicks are doing okay but I doubt either one will be a keeper.

My point is every circumstance is different. In my case I think inbreeding was a lesser evil than using an unrelated hen that was of lower quality. So read and learn and study your birds and enjoy your project!

One of the objectives of inbreeding is to reveal the presence of recessive alleles for undesirable traits. This will only become visible when you mate two birds that both carry the allele (which is more likely with close relatives), and even then, only 1/4 of the offspring will show the trait. The serious breeder who finds that 1/4 of the offspring of a cross display an unwanted trait will cull not only the affected offspring but BOTH PARENTS as well, since the cross shows conclusively that both parents carry the allele.

Ye, inbreeding is definitely a double edged sword; that's a good way to put it. And, while chickens seem to tolerate a certain amount of inbreeding better than some other species, they too are affected.

I am curious about your crosses, Poplar girl. Were they hatched at the same time, in the same incubator?

ipf wrote:
I am curious about your crosses, Poplar girl. Were they hatched at the same time, in the same incubator?

Not a true scientific trial by any stretch ipf. The incubator was the same but the timing was not. I hached three sets of dorking eggs this year actually, all along with euskal oiloas. The first two sets were the sister/brother cross. The third the unrelated hen/rooster. Results for EO eggs were similarily good each time but the dorkings not so. It is always possible since the timing was different that the difference was environmental but I believe not. I will not be breeding that hen again to find out either!

Next year I will be pair mating only to use the crosses as a tool to select my better birds and start to find hidden flaws.

It was recommended to us to not breed across but only down if we are breeding related birds. It was from a "breeder". I didn't get into details but it seems to make sense.
We may raise a few birds for ourselves next year to keep. Assuming they meet or exceed breed standards they can stay.
I'm even hoping for a rooster back from some earlier sales. I let them know if they ended up with too many roos I'd be interested. There's only a 1 in 10 chance he'll be breeding his mother back.
We've worked to collect unrelated breeding stock. However, what is unrelated? Pretty much all australorps on Vancouver Island can be traced back to the same few lines.
We obtained our birds from the source of these lines looking for the best.

I know this doesn't really answer your questions..just sharing our experience as we are learning too. It does make your head hurt when you really delve into it.

PoplarGirl, you make me proud, you are learning so much.

Heather

viczoe wrote:PoplarGirl, you make me proud, you are learning so much.

Heather

Heather that is the nicest complement I have ever received. Thank you. That said, the more I learn the more I realize how little I know. There are so many things to learn!!

And differences of opinion can promote good discussion as long as everyone realizes that the point is not to agree on everything but to discuss and learn.

^ Well said poplar girl and thank you so much for that link. It is exactly what I need.

Giddyup: Thanks for sharing your experience. You make a good point about blood relations in general. I imagine if one went back far enough every breed can be traced back to a few starting lines. And yeah, delving into basic genetics is sometimes enough to give me a doozy of a headache. Math was never a strong point of mine. Sigh.

As poplar girl said, learning never really ends.

Question time!

5. How long (on average) is a breeding hen productive? What about a breeding rooster?

6. What does "culling" mean to you as a breeder? Removal from your flock? Freezer camp? Sell to recoup some expenses? (one of hubby's first questions was are we going to make any money doing this. I've already had birds long enough to know that ain't likely to happen. It's all about the passion, baby! left him less then impressed.)

And just to be clear, I’m not talking about birds born with slight deformities (like crooked toes) or backcrosses bred to find hidden defects in the parents. I’m talking about birds that don’t meet your specific breeding criteria (or the Standard) but are otherwise healthy and whole, if only pet quality. I know this might seem like a no-brainer, but I’d really like to know what everyone here does.

Ok, going to jump in here. Hopefully my written thoughts are somewhat coherent.
There are many different places you can find information about line breeding and inbreeding. Lots of different places you can quote the good or evils of it. I am going to give you my opinions and some of my experiences.

It is up to people to decide for themselves if it is right for them to get to the goals they have in mind. I use it and have used it alot, but I do so carefully.

I started my purebred breeding with Barnevelders (down in Australia, I know everyone gets tired of hearing that, but if I don`t say it I start getting emails about wanting Barnevelders). They are a tough breed as there are so many things to get right, leg colour, double lacing, black hackle, size, type and then add egg colour to it. I had a very nice trio to start with but they did need work. I had one hen that had very good leg colour, egg colour and lacing, but had `bleeding`in her black hackle. Anyways, I bred them the first year and went back to dad the second. I was making very good headway, had great fertility and was starting to see some consistency in what I wanted. I culled (usually giving friends or selling as backyard layers) both pullets and cockerels, but grew them right out and found I was getting pretty close to what I wanted.

I then came across a very nice young cockerel that had some beautiful size about him. He was a well marked bird and I decided to add him to the hens I had. One of the biggest mistakes I could have made. I think that outcross cost me 3 years of breeding! I ended up having to cull waaaay harder after the outcross (feather stubs started showing up, comb sprigs and egg colour was compromised) than I did with the close breeding I had done for 2 years. The next 8 years I closed my flock! I carefully bred out all the stuff that had started showing up and got back the egg colour. In 8 years I never lost fertility, vitality, size or any of the other things everyone says you lose.

That is just my experience. I think where we run into trouble with breeding close is when we select for single traits. Only breeding for egg production (or whatever trait you decide)will get you in trouble. You have to keep in mind what your goal is. I would always keep a couple of birds that were not exactly what I wanted, but maybe had great size or lacing, and would add them into my program. You must keep your eyes open to everything that is happening in your flock when you are breeding and not get tunnel vision. I think I didn`t run into trouble because I would not just keep all birds, I did cull. (remember the word cull does not always mean that their heads are cut off, it just means they are not used in the breeding program) The utility aspect of my birds was very important to me so I did cull on that as well. I never hatched any eggs until I found the hen was a good, productive layer. Never set pullet eggs as I was also breeding for resistance to Mareks, which could cause a lot of trouble in the Barnevelders down there.

It is about having a plan and having the guts to follow through and only keep what are productive, vital birds that have the physical qualities that you want to continue in your breeding program. You can read all you want about it, but until you play a little with it you will never know if it is for you.

Coopslave, very good post and very much the same way my birds are bred.
With my Light Brown Leghorns and many of my other breeds my flocks are closed so to speak.
When I first started working with many of my breeds and varieties of my poultry what I do is I may start with a trio of unrelated birds or I assumed they were depending on the source, I will hatch lots from them, grow all the young birds out and cull really hard hoping to pick out those close to Standard then from this young birds I will breed back father to daugther and mother to son, from there I will establish 2 families of basically the same line and by doing proper recording of where the offspring comes from each breeding that I do and only single mating or if I use a trio mating I will use 2 sisters, and then always culling very hard on the young birds. I have been able to build up my flocks without adding any new blood for in the case of my Legorns and some of my Old English it has been, once 20 + years.

My Leghorns are considered to be some of the best around and I have people stateside who clamber to buy them as one of the first things that other breeders comment on the size on my females is incredible as well I breed from females who are 4 years old and still laying well.

So I think to say that you lose fertility and size, that may be true but it's you the breeder that has contol of that by your choices of what you keep. If I ever feel that I am losing size I examine what type of birds I have been choosing and make a slight change and maybe have to give alittle somewhere else but it is a balancing act, as well like you I do not use cockerels or pullets for breeding and by single mating I know excatly who is producing eggs and the quality and anyone who strays from the path is elimatinated from the program. I use these same policy for both L.F and Bantams.

This thing about using a new different male every year makes everything in a proper breeding program a crap shoot and you will have no idea how you will be set back or if you get any type of fault where is it coming from.

When I do add any new blood what I do is I first reseach where I will get the male from, what their bloodlines and breeding program are, then I perfer to get a single cock bird or cockerel which I will not use until he is totally mature, then I will do a test mating first with again single mating only with about 2 and then I will grow those youngsters out and see if I think the breeding worked. If it has given me what I am looking for and not things I don't want I will then use that male heavy the following year and then he will be gone either to a new home or gone. I then work his offspring back into the program. It takes a bit of tracking your birds but I can tell you that in most of my breeds I am very successful, exhibitng wise and I produce birds that are peas in a pod, not producing very many disqualifing faults. When I cull it is really more about some of the really finer points of each breed or variety as most of the young ones are much the same save things like eye color, size of combs feather width and color faults, which might be fine for some folks but I am ruthless if an eye according to the standard should be dark brown to almost black anything a shade lighter does not stay as it is letting these little things go that get you into trouble.

Hope some of this makes sense.

Heather

Viczoe I really like the info on how you introduce a new rooster into you program. I will be using that in the future. Just gives me more options!

2. Can anyone recommend any websites or books about chicken genetics that are in layman terms? Or good books about breeding in general?

This is the best book by far that I have ever found on colour genetics!! Makes thing fairly easy and has tons of picture (these work for me better than text).

You will have to google and look around a bit for it. I heard there was a second edition available, but I believe you have to get it from Europe now. I got it when I was in Oz as one of the authors is Australian.

Just another picture to show the detail inside the book.

Wonderful thread. It leads to all sorts of questions.

Vicsoe, when you have 2 families for a breed, how many do you keep per family to breed? You said you do single matings, but how many roo/hen(s) pairings will you have for each family? Do you switch the roosters on a regular basis within the pairings? What do you feel are the optimum numbers for maintaining the genetic health so to speak of the families?o
Re the books, I really like "The Mating and Breeding of Poultry" by Harry Lamon & Rob Slocum. It's wonderful for me a newcomer to breeding. It was first published in 1920 and reprinted in 2003, but seems to not have changed much. I can understand it so it has to be for the layman :-)

Sandy

Thank you both for sharing your hard earned wisdom Coopslave and viczoe. I really do appreciate it. And that book looks wonderful Coopslave. I love the big, colour pics. I will definitely be hunting down a copy for myself. Thank you for bring it to my attention.

Like I said, my main goal will be to produce large sized, dual-purpose birds that meet breed Standard. So I will be looking at the whole picture, not just a single frame. I realize I have a long, bumpy road ahead of me and many years of work and continued learning. But I can honestly say I can’t think of a single other hobby I’d rather be spending my time and energy on. No guts, no glory! as they say. Glory to me being big, beautiful, productive birds I can be proud to breed and call my own and one day (hopefully) share with others.

Also, thanks for explaining what culling means to you. The word has so many variations in the poultry world.

Granschickens: Thanks for the book recommendation. It sounds perfect for me, as well as others new to breeding.

Sandy, I always keep more than I need like most people. In my OEG in the fall when I am going though the females one year and older I like to keep at least 6 females and I always have cock birds and that is mostly because the producing years on a male are longer. I then have the young birds for a given year of which at the end of the year after culling and selling a few I would like to end up with 4-5 young females from a given family which I will show and winter and then re-assess in the spring to see if I still think they have something to offer my breeding program for that breed or variety. I all likely hood I will would let 1 or 2 of those go to another breeder. As for the young cockerels from any given year, I will usually cull them down to the best 5-6 with the intention at the end of the year of ending up with 2 for myself to show and once again I reassess them though the winter and will likely sell 1 and keep 1 or sometimes like some of my young ones from last year I am what to keep both as they both have something to offer my program. These young males may not actually get used for a couple years in the breeding program or may at some point go to another breeder, but by then I am sure of what I have in that bird as I will likely be showing it if I can keep it in condition.

I usually have to be very careful not to run my self short on the young birds, when letting birds go in the fall, but because I keep and totally mature out some young birds I will sometimes have the some of the cream of the crop avilable in the spring. With the Leghorns L.F I always have at least 1 old male and 2 males over the age of a year as well as the young ones with about 4 females per family. Because of the room they take and because its so hard to condition without a lot of room I tend not to keep as many as I should as I will be down to 1 really good young cockerel by the end of a hatching year(Dec.) or sometimes I won't keep any males if I have at least 3 once again it's mainly a room thing with the L.F.

When I say single mate that means that I will set up the females in separate breeding pens and move the male around each day to service the females. and one male may have generally 4-5 females,I would be working him over all eggs are marked as to which female layed them and which male sired them and this is all recorded weekly as the eggs are put in the incubator and then the fertility is also noted upon candling at 7 days and then the number hatched from each mating is noted in our book at hatching. Each chick is given the apprioate toe marking for it's lineage. I do take the males from each family and cross to the other but once again these matings are noted in our records. I will generally use 2 males in a given year, from a family. Because of our record keeping we can tell if we are having any fertility issues right away, so this is why I keep back up males.

It is not hard to do this if you keep decent records and the nice thing is if I encounter any problems those birds can be taken out of the program right away and all the young can be culled. But I have to admit that touch wood , I have only had this happen once many many years ago with a female that had the tiniest side sprig(old english) and though my not being careful enough to cull her out imediately upon seeing it, she did get into my breeding program for that color and she passed this on to all of her male offspring, but because every youngster could be identified by the toe marking and she could be identified from my single mating records her and all her offspring male and female were culled out and none were released to the public so to speak and for me it was problem solved right away.The nice thing about single mating is you can determine little things like someone producing light eyes or clor or type issues and you can chose to not use that bird or try a different breeding the next year.

Breeders should never only keep one male as with eveything you may end up losing him or could have fertility issues and then you are hooped, as I said I think one should keep at the very least 3 males from a family at any given time.

Anyway getting long winded here
Heather

Great post Heather! Lots of great information.

viczoe wrote: Breeders should never only keep one male as with eveything you may end up losing him or could have fertility issues and then you are hooped, as I said I think one should keep at the very least 3 males from a family at any given time.

These are words of wisdom. Last year I only felt that 2 cockerels, out of 8, were worth keeping for breeding. I lost one late in the winter to what looked like an attack of some sort and the other has not produced fetile eggs in the two hatches I have tried. So starting out with this new breed has left me with no hatches from my own birds this year. Such a drag!!
He has had a bum pluck, which I don`t think I should have to do, and we will see in a couple of weeks what I get. This is his last chance, such a nice bird too.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! To all of you who are willing to share your methods and wisdom.

This thread contains the most useful, practical and sensible information on breeding I have read on any forum to date. I have been re-reading and absorbing this wealth of knowledge, and feeling so thankful that it has come at a perfect time for me. I feel I have a good foundation in my favorite flock, but needing to work on refining some traits and of course continue to make those never-ending improvements.
Heather, I'm so glad you explained about moving your rooster from pen to pen to service different groups of hens, and then marking the eggs. Such a simple thing, but why didn't I think of that? I had this idea in mind that I would start this winter by breeding one group of hens for a month, begin incubating those eggs, then put the roo in with my second group. So unnecessary, and waste of valuable time when he could be alternating between the 2.
Little tips and hints can make the process that much more productive and efficient.

I will be looking for that book, Coopslave. Looks like just the thing for a lay person like me.

The knowledgeable members on here, and your willingness to help others is quickly making this forum the best place to be for people who are serious about breeding and raising poultry.
My hats off to you all!!

I'd also like to thank everyone again for your knowledge and experience as well as the respectful way of delivering the information. Topics like these have gone sideways on other forums and it's so great to know our members can share their thoughts and opinions with such maturity, diplomacy and respect.

LONG LIVE WCPS!