When friends are foes.

Sweetened wrote:

toybarons wrote:Blunty, I was mentally messed up by my dad to never really have friends. I could remember whenever I would try to make a friend he would tell me that they only wanted to be around me to use me either for my toys or my bike. He would always try to pick the kids he wanted me to be friends with. If I made a friend and it failed, he would be there to make sure I knew how right he was. My self confidence was nil. You grow up thinking everyone hates you so you stop trying. That crap stays with you right into adulthood and right to this day, it screws with me.

Toybarons, I can somewhat relate. My Mom was in abusive relationships for over half of my young life and I remember feeling a need to always be home. I was bullied severely in high school, so my friends were few, far between and fickle, but I found I wouldn’t have friends over or stay over at friends because I was always worried about a fight and having to get in the middle of it. I grew up fast, cleaning up the food and drink that would be thrown from counters, bringing my Mom out of panic attacks and on constant watch to make sure I knew my Mom would make it through another fight; having friends just didn’t feel like a priority. Because I’ve seen the intense double-sided (two-faced) nature people can have (abusers are notoriously one way and then turn on a dime), I don’t really trust anyone. Moose is the only person I trust with my life, and even my two ‘close’ friends and us don’t hang out much at all, if ever.

It does stick with you, those childhood things. It’s always embedded. My Mom still makes terrible life decisions and I still feel obligated to drop everything for her, however living in Saskatchewan when she is in BC helps my brain cycle through where my life priorities and her lifestyle meet and where the division is.

I’m sorry you had to go through that barons!

Thanks Sweetened. Maybe that's why what each of us has gone through makes us each unique, interesting and strong in our own way

My family had the apperance of being normal. My mom was wonderful. She had her faults but she was a rock to my brothers and me. She laughed, she danced, she was a free spirit. My dad was more stern. He was also into some shady business so we were all very comfortable $$$. Much of the problem was how my dad was brought up. His dad was English, ex-military and was strict. His mom was Scotish. She played favourites amongst her kids. Anytime a son would not do as she wanted, she would disowned them. My dad once said she disowned him so many times he lost count. I think many of the controlling mannerisms my dad has used on us kids all came from his mom. It's a cycle.

Dad rarely raised a hand to me. Only twice that I can recall. He rarely swore at me. Only once I can recall. However, it some respects, I wish he had beaten me because bruises people understand as abuse. Going weeks without talking to me when I was a kid because I didn't say something the right way or do something the way he wanted it done...only others who have gone through it too seem to understand that it is a sort of abuse that can be just as hard to overcome as an adult. When people stop talking to a person like me, the panic button goes off and you immediately start questioning what you've done wrong? It's a big reason I would have problems making friends. I would come off as being smothering and needy. It was only when Bruce came into my life that he showed me differently. Even after all these years, I still need him to help me through because I'll have dark days, you know?

I thought about sending you this privately but decided to post it instead. I don't know. Not trying for sympathy. Maybe someone else might read it and relate it and it can help them. It's not something I go around talking about often.

Going to "Do an UNO" and put it out there.

toybarons wrote:...only others who have gone through it too seem to understand that it is a sort of abuse that can be just as hard to overcome as an adult. When people stop talking to a person like me, the panic button goes off and you immediately start questioning what you've done wrong? It's a big reason I would have problems making friends. I would come off as being smothering and needy. It was only when Bruce came into my life that he showed me differently. Even after all these years, I still need him to help me through because I'll have dark days, you know?

I thought about sending you this privately but decided to post it instead. I don't know. Not trying for sympathy. Maybe someone else might read it and relate it and it can help them. It's not something I go around talking about often.

Going to "Do an UNO" and put it out there.

I think we hijacked uno's thread Sorry Uno. I must say in response, I bolded things that ring true to me. Moose's dad's side of the family has this 'stare' they do where it's just them being neutral; DRIVES ME NUTS. You can ask Moose how sick of hearing 'are you mad?' he is. I don't believe I deserve him as I don't have a sense of self-worth despite years of trying to change that view. He tries, but I know it's hard on both of us when I sink down into that thought pattern.

That's a big reason I don't have friends that I let in that often, because I'm afraid of what they'd think of that, and if they'd think I was being a suck for attention and/or needy.

DO AN UNO !?!? What the..

TOybarons, shunning, excommunication, the silent treatment are powerful tools of intimidation and manipulation that are only to be used when the relationship between two equals, has gone off the rails. It is not appropriate for a parent to do this to a child. It puts the child into the frantic position of trying to guess what the problem is, trying to guess what they have done wrong. Honest communication, to me, is more helpful. Yes, I think it IS better for a parent to say, "You have done X, you are in trouble, you have made me angry, and now I am going switch your backside until you say SQUEEEE, and do NOT repeat this mistake again." From there, everyone knows what's on the table, what the problem is, what the cost is, and we move on. Everyone may not agree, but no one is in the dark.

Silence and excommunication are ways of making a lesser person in a relationship grovel and sweat. It removes dignity, it removes respect, it removes YOU. Shunning and excommunication make you invisible in your own life and the result of that is far more devastating that being beaten. Being ignored is way more damaging to children than being pounded on. Being so worthless that you are unseen and invisible leaves deeper lifelong scars than anything a fist can inflict.

Sometimes two adults cannot resolve an issue and then the only thing to do is to no longer be involved with each other. Call it quits. Agree to not speak or socialize. It's over, I love you, but I cannot tolerate your crap so, goodbye. But this is NOT the same as the stare, the silence, the ignoring of a parent to child. Better to say to your child "I need to not talk to you for a while because I am so mad I might say something I will regret, so leave me alone for the next hour/half a day/week, and then, when we are calm, we will talk." That to me is fair. It addresses what's going on, gives a reason and shows hope of an eventual resolution. It shows your child that they are worth wanting to solve things with, just not at this second. It shows that you have some respect for their presence as individuals. People can deal with that.

I don't feel hijacked at all! Thoughts have an evolution and flow and it's always interesting to see where it goes. Reasons why we are shut off from relationships with others ARE related to the topic of friendship.

In my home, with an Italian father, there was no end to the shouting and debate. But it was equal opportunity yelling. Everyone was allowed their opinion, everyone was allowed to shout about it. You were allowed to wave your arms, pound the table, make that pinched fingers wrist flexing gesture under someone's nose. My mom used to say as long as we were yelling, things were fine. It's when we all quit talking that she new things were bad.

well. This has me thinking. I have a friend who tends to be a hot head, sort of stuck in the bravado of a successful/powerful 20 year old. We have had a very good working relationship for about 5 years now. But I think it is coming to an end. I have been waiting patiently to hear abck from them, but it looks like I need to give up.
Suddenly feeling exhausted.
Can this relationship come back. Well, I am the last to hold a grudge, it takes an awful lot for me to totaly write off someone. Who knows what the future will bring, but I can tell you that it will never ever be the same. If the friendship continues the amount of trust, especially with respect to certain things, will never be there again and I will no temper everything with the lessons learned.

Arcticsun wrote:well. This has me thinking. I have a friend who tends to be a hot head, sort of stuck in the bravado of a successful/powerful 20 year old. We have had a very good working relationship for about 5 years now. But I think it is coming to an end. I have been waiting patiently to hear abck from them, but it looks like I need to give up.
Suddenly feeling exhausted.
Can this relationship come back. Well, I am the last to hold a grudge, it takes an awful lot for me to totaly write off someone. Who knows what the future will bring, but I can tell you that it will never ever be the same. If the friendship continues the amount of trust, especially with respect to certain things, will never be there again and I will no temper everything with the lessons learned.

You promised never to tell!

But seriously folks, sometimes people change and it is often better to let a changing relationship fade away than to hold on to it after its expiry date and have it go rotten in the carton.

SoSincereSue, you are right. People change, lives shift, friendships drift apart. It takes a super special person to flow and bend with the changes of a friendship. Some friendships survive in some new shape, many don't.

Do you find too there are different levels of friendships? There are close friends, casual friends, acquaintances. Some people are only friends in the context of where you see them, church or the curling club. But beyond that, the friendship does not follow you home. That fship is happier when kept inside the well defined confines of it's box.

Some of the most mature fships I've had have been with other women raising families and keeping home. The number one rule to having these fships last is to understand that when your friend says, 'no, I just can't make it, I have too much to do', you understand this! As a wife/mother you also know that from time to time the demands of your life get to be too much, and you just can't go to the jewelry party, plant sale, shopping trip. Mature friendships mean that your expectations are few and come with no assumed obligation. When two people can say no to invitations and not get in a huff, now that is a mature and reciprocal relationship. And it is SO NICE when you both finally do have schedules that allow you to meet for lunch..then how you talk your faces off! You have kids, husbands, farm animals, and all their needs pop up randomly and take precedence over your own plans most of the time. A true friend gets this, because she lives the same life! Support and understanding are precious things.

This sort of friendship is often not possible though when your friend calls your cell and says "I'm quickly having some gel nails applied while my car is getting detailed, the housekeeper should be done soon and I'm going to pick up Chinese for dinner tonight, how about we meet around 7?" ANd you are standing on the manure pile in gumboots and overalls, when you realize your kid has left the water hydrant on for the last 6 hours and the horse pen is flooded and the pump has quit because the well has run dry. Someone else left the main gate open and what you thought was the horses running around being happy was actually them fleeing the property as fast as they could. A cow has gone into labour and laid down in the swamp, stupid cow, so you have to get her moved before she drops her calf in the mud and it drowns. The eggs in the bator are due to hatch and you haven't set the brooder up yet, your MIL is coming for a week and you need to purchase special food for her vegetarian diet, and you realize, with regret, that giving your husband the scissors and asking him to even up the back of your hair was a big, big mistake! And this is when your cell phone rings with gel nail friend. My life simply does NOT allow for me to be friends with people like that. It just doesn't work. So I think friendships have to be between people who are somewhat living in the same universe.

uno wrote:This sort of friendship is often not possible though when your friend calls your cell and says "I'm quickly having some gel nails applied while my car is getting detailed, the housekeeper should be done soon and I'm going to pick up Chinese for dinner tonight, how about we meet around 7?" ANd you are standing on the manure pile in gumboots and overalls, when you realize your kid has left the water hydrant on for the last 6 hours and the horse pen is flooded and the pump has quit because the well has run dry. Someone else left the main gate open and what you thought was the horses running around being happy was actually them fleeing the property as fast as they could. A cow has gone into labour and laid down in the swamp, stupid cow, so you have to get her moved before she drops her calf in the mud and it drowns. The eggs in the bator are due to hatch and you haven't set the brooder up yet, your MIL is coming for a week and you need to purchase special food for her vegetarian diet, and you realize, with regret, that giving your husband the scissors and asking him to even up the back of your hair was a big, big mistake! And this is when your cell phone rings with gel nail friend. My life simply does NOT allow for me to be friends with people like that. It just doesn't work. So I think friendships have to be between people who are somewhat living in the same universe.

Bahahahahaha!! This sounds like my life. There are plenty of people who I like just fine in passing, but my true friends are the ones who understand when we cancel plans because we have to pull a calf or the baby just vomited down my chest or something of the like.

The manicured women need to stay far away from me, unless they want to get dirty.

Uno, if you lived nearby and all that was going down, I'd leave my kids with Himself and I'd show up and help you move the cow, catch the horses, and dig a trench to drain the corral. Then I'd tell you to go shower and while you did that, I'd start supper and set up your brooder, and when you came out, I'd fix your hair. Then I'd leave and you could eat and then go grocery shopping. Also, I would have brought a pie for you.

Provided I wasn't having a day like that of my own, of course. If I am, you're on your own.

lol...

I hear ya. Sometimes the hope of things getting beter (or at least not worse) feels safer/easier than making that split.

"Do a UNO" I sincerely mean as a compliment.

You once said about one of your posts that you thought was sort of out there that you were at first not going to post it but did anyway. You said that as personal as the post was that sometimes you have to send it out there.

Thus my reference "Do a UNO." When one reveals a bit about one's self, takes a breath and hits the send button to share and grows.

Uno, as a kid I lived in the St Urbain area in Montreal. Many of our neighbours were Italians. I used to love hearing them argue. So much drama! Best of all growing up next to them....the food. OMG! When you have an Italian kid as your friend, you are ALWAYS well fed. Go over to an Italian family's home for Sunday dinner and it's like 3 hours long! The food just keeps coming, and coming!

Good times!

TOybarons, no offense taken. I do admire people who take risks. Sometimes they are mistakes but thankfully, in Canada, personal risks are not a capital offense.

Also Toybarons, it was me mentioning having an Italian father and your words about being well fed in an Italian home made me chuckle. I think the first thing my father ever said when he was introduced to my then boyfriend (now Hub) was, "Wife, make this boy a sandwich!" Hub was a skeletal skinny guy that caused my dad physical pain to look upon. My poor mom had a full time job feeding the stray boyfriend. I have always said that Hub married me for my mother's cooking!

Authentic, what a kind offer of help. When I was reading that it made me realize that Hub and I seldom ask for help and even less seldom accept it. Often we get ourselves into situations where we have bitten off more than we can chew but by this age are getting pretty realistic about how much we better bite off! We fight most of our battles alone. Thank Gordon as some of the stupidity we get into is kind of embarrassing!

uno wrote:Authentic, what a kind offer of help. When I was reading that it made me realize that Hub and I seldom ask for help and even less seldom accept it. Often we get ourselves into situations where we have bitten off more than we can chew but by this age are getting pretty realistic about how much we better bite off! We fight most of our battles alone. Thank Gordon as some of the stupidity we get into is kind of embarrassing!

I think everyone does that - people don't like to ask for help because of their pride. Which is fine when a project is manageable with the manpower you have. For big projects, though, it's good to have a pool of like-minded friends who will pitch in on your projects, with the understanding you'll help them out, too.

authenticfarm wrote:For big projects, though, it's good to have a pool of like-minded friends who will pitch in on your projects, with the understanding you'll help them out, too.

Yes it is.
We call these friends our "Enablers"

Enablers are welcome here -anytime!
We always have huge projects underway....
Funny you posted this now. I recently wrote off a friend, by her request. We've known each other for over 20 years. This is the second time she's done this, and she just apologized for having done it last time. People are weird! I forgave her the first time, but there are no third strikes. Life is too short to stress over other people's issues.
My feeling is, if someone wants me in their life, and I want to be there, great. If not, there are nearly 7 billion people in the world, do I really need to worry over one. Been that way with all my relationships. I always say my hubby is welcome to stay as long as he wants. If we don't want to be there, it is a waste of time and energy. When we have issue with each other, we think about it and discuss it. No games or mind tricks. It makes life very simple. He simply is my best friend ever, and I have quite a few people in my life who I consider friends.
Life is short, we should all fill it with people and experiences that enrich and fulfill us. Luckily we all have different ideas about what those things are.