Exactly What Breeds are Heritage Breed Poultry

Yes, you can do and say and advertise whatever you like, it's supposedly a free cuntry.

As for RUDENESS, reap what you sow, ask and you shall receive, I'm here to please, lots more available cheep too. Where is my salute icon gone to now?

reneggaide wrote:I called, I asked, I was told:
Buckeye x Chantecler are considered heritage brirds by ALBC on principle that any heritage breed crossed with any heritage breed produces heritage birds, BUTT only in the first crossing F1.

Past this, if the flock or breed is outcrossed then they must be bred back to 15/16 purity to be called heritage.

What I refuse to think of as heritage are things like rustic broilers.

You have lots of info now, make yer own list.

I just called them also and Yes the first cross F1 will be considered Heritage but that is the only cross allowed They cannot be bred back up by going 15/16 Just hung up with the lady and asked her and that is what I was told

OK people lets play nice!! Everyone can express a opinion in a kind way, lets continue a thoughtful thread.

Heather

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I am just saying what ALBC told me on the Phone this morning
The extension is 103 as the main office does not open until 2:00

I Fell the same way that being bred up that far would make them Heritage if not awful close but Like I said that is what I was told
She said that is why in the definition of Heritage they say parents and grand parents

viczoe wrote:Callducks may I point out to you that I don't really think the APA as an organization thinks more of them selfs than they are and you might stop and think if these organizations completely volunteered staffed except for the secretary ceased to exist what would happen to pure bred poultry, I dare say they would be doomed to become a mix of backyard chickens in not many years. Hell we are part of the way there now with all the hybids. At least these many organizations give us something to strive for at least those of us who care about preserving the gentics of many of these breeds. Most organizations are not perfect and if you are so dissatisfeid with the club you could volunteer and help make change. Hidden has give a good baseline for what helps define a heritage breed as have many others,

I find the word heritage is becoming a catch phase for many people just to flog birds, one might be better served to push the economic and egg laying abilities qualities of ones chosen breed. It is important I think when selling purebred large fowl that it is important that the buyers know that these birds are not broilers and grow much much slower than meat birds but on the up side the hens lay much longer and more consistantly than hybid layers and are 10 times more beautiful to look at. Just my thoughts

Heather

I have heard that egg statement said about "heritage breed" hens many times before Heather, but I have yet to see any breed lay eggs even remotely close to that of commercial layers!!! The amount of eggs that just one ISA brown lays in her first year would take most "heritage" hens about 3-4 years to match in both quantity and weight. If you have "heritage breed" birds that can lay like that, I'd love to see them!

And as far as the naming of the classification goes, I too feel that the word "Heritage" is nothing more than a marketing thing! The word " Heirloom" is probably a better choice to use when describing "old world" breeds. And "Dual Purpose" is probably a better choice for describing "new world" (pre Franken Birds) chickens that have been around North America the last couple hundred years.
Just my thoughts.

Dark Wing Duck Wrote
And as far as the naming of the classification goes, I too feel that the word "Heritage" is nothing more than a marketing thing! The word " Heirloom" is probably a better choice to use when describing "old world" breeds. And "Dual Purpose" is probably a better choice for describing "new world" (pre Franken Birds) chickens that have been around North America the last couple hundred years.
Just my thoughts.

Well said Thank you for posting

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yes Viczoe, Ill play nice and I apologize for my disrespect, sorrys everyone.

I have here a lengthy email response from a director of the ALBC. I enquired quite speciffically about this subject in concern for my White Chantecler flock. In that persons opinion 15/16 is to be considered purebred. However as Tara has so graciously quoted it depends on whoo yoo talk to. My hoopinion is that there is a better chance of genetic health by outcrossing to a different breed if using a line breeding program. According to what ive read in antique books on poultry breeding 7/8 purity is where you draw the line and outcross again...BUT WITHIN THE SAME BREED USING DIFFERENT GENETIC LINES. I think this tequnique was largely lost or ignored for there to be inbreeding problems as discussed on these forums.

Now concerning rustic broilers again, I dont believe that they should be considered as any; sort of purebred heritage breed. But if I axpand my mind a bit(no I just grow the morning glories i dont eat them anymore) I can see the future possibility of them ceasing to exist due to corporate policies, same as all the White Chantecler producer flocks went bye byes. I could stomach giving them a designation in the ever changing scheme of things in order to preserve their existence, rustic is just the wrong term because it conflicts with the ALBC guideline that old-timey and any other similar term is still heritage in meaning. Maybe if the designation clearly conveyed that these are not breeds but hybrids, old hybrids, not old breeds.

And CynthiaM, so you shall recieve...Buckeye x Chantecler pics...coming soon to an email box near you!! Wait till you see the 3/4 chicks in my brooder right now!! yup, I couldnt wait to see what they might be like lol.

I have heard that egg statement said about "heritage breed" hens many times before Heather, but I have yet to see any breed lay eggs even remotely close to that of commercial layers!!! The amount of eggs that just one ISA brown lays in her first year would take most "heritage" hens about 3-4 years to match in both quantity and weight. If you have "heritage breed" birds that can lay like that, I'd love to see them!







I guess you have never had Australorps? I get 5 for 5 even during this heat wave of large eggs. I would even take half that to avoid the nasty isa browns that are mean and strung out. Also my aussies conform to the SOP and are pretty to boot!

If we are encouraging "slow" food why encourage people to buy commercial layers that lay every day for their 1st year then crap out until they die? Seems a waste to me.

Has been requested in writing will be posted when I receive it

I Posted the extension I talked to it was 103
if you need the Phone number here it is
919-542-5704

DWD, I should have said that the egg statement would pertain more to my Standard bred Leghorns who produce lots and lots of eggs for long periods and for me would produce more if I wasn't saving on the power bill and not providing extra light in the winter. They may not lay in that first year like an Isa brown but over the long term perform very well and aside from that I would perfer to look at my correct breed type Leghorn with beautiful color etc. than look at an layed out hybrid any day.

I like the termage of Heirloom so much better that Heritage but still don't see why such termage is is so important as it is more just a way to try and sell more birds to the public which likes catch phases, but if one has to use a term for most Purebred L.F the word "Dual Purpose" would the correct termage. By Dual Purpose it means that they make a decent bird to eat with good feeding and the hens are egg layers how many depends on the breed and weather or not that feature has been something the breeders have strived to maintain or improve. The egg laying abilities of a great number of L.F breeds is compromised because of the broodyness tendencies. But it's a give and take thing I think any buyer should perhaps be informed if they have chosen a breed that has broody tendencies so they know not to expect constant egg laying and if they want an egg layer they should look to the Mediterrran breeds like the Leghorn or the Minorica for instance.

Heather

appway wrote:They are both Great breeds and In their country they are considered Heritage I am sure
And Here they Most likley are also as people that have them know their History

Like I keep saying
What do people consider Heritage Breeds and Why
And Susan You answered Just like I asked the Question
Thanks

Alrighty, I'll answer as asked

I view this question through the same way I do most things on this forum, through plants. In some ways, horticulture is making an even bigger mess of the heritage or heirloom label. One seed company o ordered through this spring had some labeled heirloom next to some labeled heritage right next to some really old homestead classics that they didn't label as either! Seeds of Diversity doesn't seem to mind much as long as its open pollinated, and in most important ways I think they're right, since anything open pollinated, even if it was only bred five years ago is at risk of getting steamrolled by industrial agriculture.

I believe that the core of what heritage livestock or plants is, is a response to industrial agriculture. I think something is heritage in its essence if it was either created before industrial agriculture changed all the rules, or was created in the same way as those old time varieties. Some think the line should be 1945 or a little later when pesticides and hybrids were invented, or maybe a couple decades later when the use of hybrids really became widespread for plants. Translating this to poultry, I would probably draw the line at the invention of the Cornish cross. Ducks are a bit harder, since I think some younger breeds like appleyard, Ancona and harlequin should count.

As for albc, I think they picked pre 1925 APA because it was easy and convenient to define. They also just plain don't care about heritage breeds from other countries unless American flocks are contributing to global survival of a breed. They are after all, an American breed conservancy.

I will admit, I have an especially hard time with this one. When I first came into poultry I believed that heritage was a breed of chicken that was an older breed, used on farms before, and dual purpose. Now, well, I hate the term. Here is why.

First, my definition of heritage concerning chickens:

1) A chicken that is used for both egg production and meat.
2) A chicken that can reproduce it's self by it's self.
3) A chicken that does not require commercial feed to be productive.
4) A chicken that was historically used for the above purposes.

I have tried to get those heritage breeds from different people and locations so I had a good foundation stock which to start from. What I found was birds that have the same color in general or same pattern but nothing more in common. One that I went after was the Barred Plymouth Rock. Wow, did I have alot to learn. It isnt just the breed, but the line from which the bird comes from on weither it even starts to meet those requirements. I can define what I look for as a heritage breed now, but not which breed are heritage breeds on the basis that just because it is called a barred rock and historically did meet these requirements, it does not mean that a specific flock of them does now unless you are breeding for and looking for those requirements.

I am very tired and sorry if I am talking in circles, I do hope you get what I mean.

A Cornish Cross is exactly that - a cross, so doesn't breed true and can't possibly be considered heritage or heirloom or whatever the other term was. Ameraucanas, however, DO breed true, are lovely birds, and are, IMO, totally deserving of whichever kudo-conferring appelation you choose. Why have an arbitrary date stamp? Will we keep the same cutoff 20, 30, 50, 200 years from now? Dumb.

If it breeds true, free ranges well, and is pretty and productive, why would you want to impose other arbitrary criteria? I will admit I get a bit fed up with all the SPO/APA stuff. But that's just me.

ipf wrote:A Cornish Cross is exactly that - a cross, so doesn't breed true and can't possibly be considered heritage or heirloom or whatever the other term was. Ameraucanas, however, DO breed true, are lovely birds, and are, IMO, totally deserving of whichever kudo-conferring appelation you choose. Why have an arbitrary date stamp? Will we keep the same cutoff 20, 30, 50, 200 years from now? Dumb.

If it breeds true, free ranges well, and is pretty and productive, why would you want to impose other arbitrary criteria? I will admit I get a bit fed up with all the SPO/APA stuff. But that's just me.

Honestly, really did think that's what I was getting at. Doesn't help that I was writing on myphone in slow spots during a delivery. Arbitrary date stamp works if you think all purebred poultry work stopped with the invention of the Cornish cross, which I know some reallydo believe. I'm with you ipf. Really, I am...I swear don't really see what pretty should have to do with it, but that's no matter.

Right now though, I think people are picking a date stamp because our agriculture and our food culture has gone to crap, and the current system has been so overpowering that you kind of do have to go back 50 or 60 years or whatever to figure out what in the world people did before fertilizers and soy. If we don't do anything to fix this issue, then yes. In 200 years we will still have to go back to our arbitrary date stamp.

One of the problems about drawing a line in the sand is that we tend to focus so hard on the line that we forget why we drew it in the first place. What is the value of the heritage term? What is the definition supposed to accomplish?

One of the primary motives is a recognition that it is in our best long term benefit to maintain genetic diversity that is of public domain. I suspect that the term was initially applied in a conservation context.

With this in mind, I feel the ALBC definition fails to achieve the intended purpose. There is absolutely no logical reason to not consider the Maran a heritage breed. Same for the Basque chickens. The Hungarian.

I think it is prudent to keep in mind that ALBC did not invent the concept of heritage poultry. As such, I do not accept their jurisdiction to define the term for us here in Canada. If it worked, then great, we could adopt it. However, since it doesn't work, there is no reason for us to be hand-cuffed to it.


For further reflexion ... many, including myself, would consider it a stretch to think of the Ameraucana as a heritage breed. However, it, together with it's cousin, the Araucana, holds genetic diversity that is not available from any recognized heritage breed. Both are of public domain. So how could they ever be considered less worthy of conservation than any recognized heritage breed?

Rather than worrying about some arbitrary line in the sand, I believe we would be better off considering what is important. What do we really need from "heritage" poultry? Me personally, I want public domain genetics that effectively get the job done. I think we would be better off evaluating individual genepools for their ability to perform as intended rather than the labels attached.

IPF, I only talk of what I know and don't know how this thread can continue with out some mention of either SOP/APA/ or even ALBC, so sorry to tire you out with my posts as I do try to keep them on topic and to the point. I have read plenty of genetic posts that tire me out, (mostly because things are generally black and white with me and my brain but have to admit to learning a thing or two) but don't see the need to let everyone know, I can chose not to read them we all have the right of choice here.

Heather

viczoe wrote:IPF, I only talk of what I know and don't know how this thread can continue with out some mention of either, so sorry to tire you out with my posts as I do try to keep them on topic and to the point. I have read plenty of genetic posts that tire me out, (mostly because things are generally black and white with me and my brain but have to admit to learning a thing or two) but don't see the need to let everyone know, I can chose not to read them we all have the right of choice here.

Heather

I'm really confused. I sense that I've offended you, which I never meant to do, and really have no idea how.
What exactly are you referring to as "either"?

This is way to cerebral for me, thus I feel under qualified to say anything, however I have never let that stop me before.

HERITAGE is too wishy washy and too politically correct to impart any information to Joe Average chicken buyer. I say poo on the title HERITAGE.

DUAL PURPOSE tells me what a chicken is built for, what it does, how it performs, but tells me nothing about its history. Fine, okay, it can eat dirt, lays 5 eggs a day and poops gold while achieving a butcherable weight in about 11 days. Great, super duper purpose. But still I don't know anything about this bird or its family. Who are it's Great-Grandparents?

The word I would like to see more of is PEASANT STOCK DOMESTIC. Here I picture birds that pecked around the yard in Siberia where my maternal Grandmother grew up. Those plain, humble birds, the same ones that everyone had, those are what I think of as PEASANT STOCK DOMESTIC birds of Russia. Or the DOMESTIC birds of Italy. To me this implies birds who can be traced back fairly far into antiquity. The birds that were found in 'the old country'. I think that is what heritage is supposed to mean, but it's been abused and stolen by marketing gurus and now is not a trustworthy description. But, the DOMESTIC bird of (name country), now THIS is interesting and meaningful to me. To earn that title, you have to have lived through a few wars and witnessed some history. The bird is a survivor.

Too cerebral eh? And yet you nail it for me with Peasant Stock Domestic. Thats exactly what I went looking for when I started. I wanted the chickens my great grandparents raised, the kind that would survive here, and yu kno wut, my grandfather often tells me now the chanteclers and buckeye have been here on this farm before. I consider this My heritage, not the chickens.

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i dont see the problem with any of the "terms" heritage to me sounds/means like our ancesstors had these birds, raised them, they were "old school" these were the building blocks of poultry breeds that were developed 100's of years ago to serve some purpose... general purpose sounds like any joe schmuchk buys these "general purpose" birds to meet his basic requirements on the farm so it be egg laying or meat, they are not a special bird, they are not even maybe purebred they are just general purpose kind of like "äll purpose cleaner"....LOL sounds bland.... peasant stock sounds...just weird...LOL dual purpose sounds like it means.... these birds have 2 purposes meat and or eggs... sounds good to the average farmer who doesnt care if they are purebred or meet the SOP or lay purple eggs.... i dunno... i like the term heritage it sounds old school, like the first ones created... but thats just me, i think everyone gets their panties in a knot to fast over this stuff LOL i say call them as you want...,

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thats what mine come to tara LOL they come a runnin when they hear that!