Clarification on Araucana and/or Ameraucana terminology

This isn't about Amer vs Arau.

Wikipedia has some descriptors used to discern between the above, however I'm not quite sure I understand them and was hoping someone could show the difference, maybe with pictures and descriptions. Let me tell you, I'm certainly wary of googling 'muffs'. Just sayin'.

I'm looking for detail on Tufts (lethal allele), muffs and beards. I always thought I knew what a beard was, until you put the 2 other words of it, now I just need to be sure!

Thanks

I understand your reluctance. . . (!)

Ear tufts are awfully cute, and a key defining characteristic of true Araucanas. They depend on the bird having an allele at a the tufted gene locus, and if the bird has only one copy of the tufted allele, it has really adorable ear tufts that twirl out sideways. If the bird has two copies of the allele, well, it isn't a bird; it's dead in the egg. So I'm not a big fan of this allele.

Muffs-and-beards, on the other hand, are benign and also very charming. Birds have what look like bushy sideburns (the muff part) and a droopy feathery bit under the chin (the beard part). They are characteristic of Ameraucanas. Amers are a very new (1980s, I think?), and [IMO] wonderful breed, as they have the lovely egg colour without either the lethal cheek tuft genes or the fertility-inhibiting rumpless genes. Sorry, I don't have good pics, but if you google the two breeds you'll see what I mean.

Sweetened, Wikipedia's Auraucana picture is quite good. You can see some nice Ameraucana beards here:

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Sue

Googleing Araucana can be confusing because the standard is different in different countries.

In the US and Canada they are a tuffed, rumpless breed.

In Australia they are very similar to the Ameraucana but they also have a small crest (that is in the Standard for that country) and I believe the ones in Europe are the same.

So a Google result could be a bit confusing as well.

This a a good place to see some Ameracuana pictures as well. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

ipf, very clear and useful description.

Thanks everyone. I'd post my Araucana/Amers and say "Arau or Amer" and I'd probably get a different answer from everyone, including some saying EE. Ultimately, I give up on figuring it out. I beeeeliieve, based on ipf's clarification of face fluff (thank you, by the way ) I have a white Ameraucana and then non standard Ameraucana's from their.

The eggs they hatched out of were green. All ended up with tails, and half the ones I have have muffs. 2 of the birds (both roos) don't have any muffs/beards at all. They did as chicks, but lost them when they feathered in. I have all non-standard colours I think, except the white. One of the roos may or may not be a duckwing/wheaton cross.


So while we're on it... If you mix a blue egg layer with a green egg layer, does that give an ee?

An EE is just a bird of less-than-certain pedigree that lays blue or green eggs. It's not a breed. Some people extend the name to birds that lay pinkish eggs, but I think that's cheating.

If either of the parents is not a pure Ameraucana then the offspring will be an EE (as long as it lays green/blue eggs).

How can you cross a blue egg layer with a green egg layer?? One of them has to be a roo, and roos lay hens, not eggs.

Seriously though, all a hen needs to have in order to lay a blue/green egg is one "O" allele. If both her parents carry exactly one "O" allele (i.e. are genotype O/o), she has a 75% chance of laying green/blue eggs. If either parent had two "O" alleles (O/O) she will definitely lay blue/green eggs.

*Falls over twitching* I feel like such an idiot when I look over this stuff. I want to understand, truly I do!

What I meant by crossing blue/green egg layers was the past genetics -- ie if you hatch a bird from a blue egg (say, roo, for lack of argument) and a bird from a green egg (hen, again, lack of argument) and breed those 2, what do you end up with? Amer/Arau?

But your Genetics detail helps me understand. I guess what really differentiates the 2 (probably wrong here) is really which traits come through and whether or not that lethal allele comes into play or they drop a tail.

Sweetened, this can be a heated thing and I have resisted posted because of it. I am going to give you my opinion (that I of course think is right ) and I know others disagree with me.

Many hatcheries sell birds that they call Araucana/Americana or Ameraucana. These birds rarely meet the Standard of Perfection and don't even always lay a green/blue egg. But because the hatcheries say they are this breed, people sell them on as such.

As you know there are many things that make a breed, a breed, and only one trait of the Ams is the blue eggs. They must also be the right type, have a beard and muff, the right coloured legs and have the right comb. They must also meet the Standard in feather colour. Having said that, there are new colours in development all the time, but these colours breed true. When you breed them together, you know what you are going to get. For example, when I breed one of my Wheaten cockerels to a Wheaten pullet, I know what the chicks are going to look like. These I would call Ameraucana.

This is where it gets tricky and people disagree. If I take my Wheaten rooster and breed him to my Black hen (they are both pure Ams) the resulting chicks will not meet a colour standard. Are they still Ams? I personally don't believe they can be sold as Ams. Just like if you breed a Buff Orp to a Blue Orp, the resulting chicks are not a Standard colour and should not be marketed as Orps.

Back to the hatcheries. The blue egg gene is only needed to be inherited once, as ipf said, to get a green or light blue (if it has no brown egg modifiers) egg. So hatcheries take anything that has one O allele and breeds it to other birds it suspects has an O allele as well. They have no regard for feather colour, or type, or comb. Often these birds have a blade comb instead of a true pea comb.

So my opinion about Ams is if they meet the Standard for type, are a standard colour (or one that is a work in progress) and breed true for it as well as laying a preferably blue egg, then they are an Ameraucana. If they do not meet all of these requirements, they are Easter Eggers. Just because it lays a blue egg, does not make it an Am, just like if it lays a dark egg it does not neccessarily make it a Marans, or a light brown egg does not make it an Orp without meeting other requirements.

There is nothing wrong with Easter Eggers. They are often very pretty birds with a larger body and better constitution than their Am counterparts. And they lay cool coloured eggs.

The Araucanas are much rarer, from my understanding, I have never had them. The ideal has 2 ear tuffs and are rumpless, but as ipf says the tuffting is a lethal gene. They are quite different in type to the Ams, from what I have seen.

coopslave wrote:Sweetened, this can be a heated thing and I have resisted posted because of it. I am going to give you my opinion (that I of course think is right ) and I know others disagree with me.

Many hatcheries sell birds that they call Araucana/Americana or Ameraucana. These birds rarely meet the Standard of Perfection and don't even always lay a green/blue egg. But because the hatcheries say they are this breed, people sell them on as such.

As you know there are many things that make a breed, a breed, and only one trait of the Ams is the blue eggs. They must also be the right type, have a beard and muff, the right coloured legs and have the right comb. They must also meet the Standard in feather colour. Having said that, there are new colours in development all the time, but these colours breed true. When you breed them together, you know what you are going to get. For example, when I breed one of my Wheaten cockerels to a Wheaten pullet, I know what the chicks are going to look like. These I would call Ameraucana.

This is where it gets tricky and people disagree. If I take my Wheaten rooster and breed him to my Black hen (they are both pure Ams) the resulting chicks will not meet a colour standard. Are they still Ams? I personally don't believe they can be sold as Ams. Just like if you breed a Buff Orp to a Blue Orp, the resulting chicks are not a Standard colour and should not be marketed as Orps.

Back to the hatcheries. The blue egg gene is only needed to be inherited once, as ipf said, to get a green or light blue (if it has no brown egg modifiers) egg. So hatcheries take anything that has one O allele and breeds it to other birds it suspects has an O allele as well. They have no regard for feather colour, or type, or comb. Often these birds have a blade comb instead of a true pea comb.

So my opinion about Ams is if they meet the Standard for type, are a standard colour (or one that is a work in progress) and breed true for it as well as laying a preferably blue egg, then they are an Ameraucana. If they do not meet all of these requirements, they are Easter Eggers. Just because it lays a blue egg, does not make it an Am, just like if it lays a dark egg it does not neccessarily make it a Marans, or a light brown egg does not make it an Orp without meeting other requirements.

There is nothing wrong with Easter Eggers. They are often very pretty birds with a larger body and better constitution than their Am counterparts. And they lay cool coloured eggs.

The Araucanas are much rarer, from my understanding, I have never had them. The ideal has 2 ear tuffs and are rumpless, but as ipf says the tuffting is a lethal gene. They are quite different in type to the Ams, from what I have seen.

Thanks Coopslave! This is all so helpful.

Since that tufted gene is dominant, if you don't see it, it isn't there. In other works, a non-tufted bird will NEVER have a tufted offspring unless mated to a tufted bird.

Ditto with rumplessness.

The female offspring of two birds hatched from blue or green eggs has somewhere over a 75% chance of laying blue/green eggs herself. Can't say exactly what the probabilty is, since we don't know the genotypes, but it is >75%, for sure.

True Ameraucanas and true Aruacanas have little in common other than their egg colour (well, they are both chickens. . .).

Also worth noting is that ALL female offspring of pure Amers or Araus will lay blue/green eggs, no matter who the dad is.

When I get home I'll take a picture of my white one with my guess. I cannot confirm for sure as she's not yet laying. We'll see if I get this right

Also note that there is no intrinsic connection between blue/green egg colour and muffs, beards, tufts or no-rump (or any other trait, for that matter). The muffiest bird ever could still lay brown eggs. And I have some putative Amers who have no muffs at all.

ipf wrote:
Also worth noting is that ALL female offspring of pure Amers or Araus will lay blue/green eggs, no matter who the dad is.

This is the ideal, but not necessarily true. I have found not all Ams are OO even though that is what we want. I had one pullet, from very good lines, end up laying a white egg. She was a very typey bird with the ideal feather colour. It is my understanding that sometimes the white eggs do pop up. Because breeders are going for the pale blue, at the origins of some of the varieties sometimes white egg layers were used to get out any brown egg modifying genes (to prevent green eggs). This is why white lobes pop up sometimes too.
So the odd white egg does pop up. Not to be used for breeding as far as I am concerned but it does happen.
(This pullet was placed with a person that knew it layed a white egg and was not sold as a blue egg laying Am.)

ipf wrote:Also note that there is no intrinsic connection between blue/green egg colour and muffs, beards, tufts or no-rump (or any other trait, for that matter). The muffiest bird ever could still lay brown eggs. And I have some putative Amers who have no muffs at all.

The pea comb and O are very closely linked. Odds are much better if you choose a pea combed bird if you want blue/green eggs.

Glad the discussion is helping Sweetened. I look forward to seeing your white pullet.

Well, to me that's one of the defining traits of the breeds - homozygous for the O allele.

Generalising, to me that's what defines a purebred - homozygous at all loci that define the breed. Otherwise it won't breed true, and surely breeding true is a essential characteristic of a breed (with the obvious exception of traits like blue).

I know chickens don't go by pedigree, just appearance, but still, the principle of a pure breed is that it breeds true, and to do that it has to be homozygous; for blue eggs, that means O/O.

I agree, but it is very hard to prove that a bird is OO. Test mating with an o bird would do it but it is a very difficult task to test mate all your breeders every year, before you breed them for purebreds. That is the only way you would know for sure if you had homozygous birds.

Alright, as promised. She's camera shy. Well, since Bella tore her back end apart, she's just afraid of anything without wings. Sorry for the blurr.

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Beard and muffs, yes? She has 'willow' legs, is that correct?

Dreadful, however, I think that 'hen' with her in the bottom picture is a roo... I was looking at the picture below and realized 'her' feathering didn't look like this other ones...

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Non-standard colouring --- soo... she's an ee, right?

Another roo...
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This is the one I thought was a duckwing/wheaton cross.

Non-standard again, so ee? Slate legs too, I think...

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Yup, same as above. Theres another one that's exactly like this. They both lost their muffs and beards, but had them as chicks.

Lastly, I bought this guy from Hidden River
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I might keep him to breed instead of the others -- was convinced he was a hen until he crowed. He has slate legs. I'm pretty screwed anyway without standard colours for sure . Nothing show quality on this farm by golly!

The green legs are a give away that they are EE. Sorry, you are not the first, or the last to learn this about their "Ameraucanas". They are very pretty birds and I bet they are going to lay lovely coloured eggs. Keep the boy you like best and breed EEs so many people love them and for good reason.

Legs should be slate, here is what legs on a black will look like:
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Here are what slate legs on the onther colours look like:
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I can try to get some better pictures for you if you like, these are old and not the best.

I ment to say your first pullet has yellow in her legs, that is why they are showing green. See how yellow her beak is?

I missed the splash guy. He looks pretty nice. You know if you use him over your pullets you will get very nicely marked birds in BLUE! My favourite bird colour.

coopslave wrote: This is where it gets tricky and people disagree. If I take my Wheaten rooster and breed him to my Black hen (they are both pure Ams) the resulting chicks will not meet a colour standard. Are they still Ams? I personally don't believe they can be sold as Ams. Just like if you breed a Buff Orp to a Blue Orp, the resulting chicks are not a Standard colour and should not be marketed as Orps.

While this opinion is promoted by the Ameraucana Breeders Club, it is not supported by the American Poultry Association which is the overall governing body for defining Standard Bred birds in North America.

If you breed a wheaton OEG to a Black OEG, nobody would question whether or not the resulting offspring are OEG.

If you cross a Black Muscovy with a White Muscovy, the resulting non standard offspring are still muscovy

If you cross a Bronze turkey with a Sweetgrass, the resulting non-standard variety is still a turkey.

The ameraucana breeders club and it's followers need to realize that they don't get special rules just because it suits their personal marketing agendas. The general rule is that colour does not define the breed except in special cases such as Rhode Island Red, Andalusion Blue, etc. This is a fact of the APA, not just a personal opinion. The ameraucana is a multicoloured breed and therefore non-standards colours are just as acceptable as they are for turkeys, muscovy, and OEGs.

Colour does not define the breed, it defines the variety.

Buff Orpington, Blue Orpington, Black Orpington

Barred Rock, White Rock, Partridge Rock

Rhode Island Red, Rhode Island White

To be a variety within a breed, the variety must breed true. That is why it is so difficult to get a new variety (colour) in a breed recognised and admitted into the Standard of Perfection. Breeding a bunch of colours together and getting chicks that are a bunch of colours is not developing a new variety it is breeding pretty coloured chooks.

If you happen to breed two different colours together and it meets the Standard for a recognised colour, you can show the bird. This is where ethics come into play I think as this bird will not breed true because of it's genetic background.

I think the OEG are a bit different. There are many varieties that are recognised and may of them can be bred together to get an outcome of a couple of different ones.


See, told you, difference of opinions about these birds. I don't think this is just an opinion with the Ameraucana Breeders Club, I think any breed club would discourage people from breeding varieties together. Would the Brahma Club want you breeding your Buff to your Darks and trying to show them?
It may be their opinion, but it is mine also. We have varieties within a breed for a reason. It is also hard work to develop a new variety and have it introduced and accepted. I am all for that, actually I think it is great, just do it the right way.

Thanks for listening Sweetened, now you get to make your own decisions about what you think is right or works for you.

Well said Coopslave
That is why there are variety's
one day there may be other colors but it is a long road.
I have alot of pure AM but they are a mixed batch of colors so I consider them EE's
The good thing is My Blue Rooster throws either blue or black so they are pretty
but they are still EE's no matter how you look at it

Well opinions are like our rumps, everyone has one. However, the fact is that the APA is our governing body in these matters and it does not support your opinion.

I don't believe it does the breed (hobby) any favours to recreate the rules as they fit our personal marketing agendas. It only creates confusion for newcomers to the breed, and distracts them from learning the essense of the breed. I believe that this divisive issue has done more to hurt the reputation of the ameraucana breed than help it. It makes the Ameraucana breed community look like a community in dissarray.

Even tho APA is the Governing Body
Then why have they not sent out a memo
Do you have a letter from them saying they do not support the AM club on the colors they accept??
saying that all colors are accepted
Because they only accept the colors that are listed
I for one would love it if they allowed any color but they dont
So all the other colors are just mixed mutts
a person could always just name them what they want as alot of people seem to do in Turkeys and Chickens A cute Tag name seems to sell better for some. But until I see a written word from APA saying all colors accepted I think I am just going to have to accept that.
And yes we all have rumps!!