rooster help please-**you can remove this if you like-rooster dead**

long history of symptoms im afraid...but please give a read and assist as you are able
Tony young bird- maybe 1.5 yrs ameraucana beauty
i moved him out with the girls and we noticed he wasn't crowing, was getting picked on a bit, then it settled out and we thought nothing of it.
then noticed him sleeping under the roost..limping now and then-thought he had injured himself...limp went away.  then noticed he just didn't look good-all hunched up outside and then sleeping in the nesting boxes
brought him in the house and treated him with tetracycline for 5 days..he seemed better was standing up
more..then did a check on him and actually saw some lice-treated with ivermectin 2 drops on his back area.
noticed the gaping of his mouth now and then-treated with panacur thinking gapeworm for three days.
he was being fed medicated chick starter and i just switched that back to grower mash yesterday.
his poop has been quite runny, then it has firmed up-gave him a bath last night and cleaned up his poopy bits.  today he seems still weak..so i put some poultry vite in his water  and also noticed he gets off balance and so i took him out of his cage and put him on the floor.  he pooped then pooped again with some small amts of bloody tinge to it.
So...now what?
His appetite is ravenous and he is drinking fine....
Could this be mareks?....we have had a chicken with mareks before, and this seems different.....
he also shakes his head quite a bit, rolling his head from side to side and then shaking it again...
he won't sit on the roost-seems to be limping again-same leg...
ack!

Check him for ear infection. That can cause balance issues and would definitely cause him to shake his head.

k-just googled how to do that.  His ear looks fine, i can see the passage, and there is no smell or drainage.  his poop though....whew! that smells..

Are the amounts of medications i gave ok?
i know the dose for tetracycline was correct.
Panacur was the dose as suggested in the gapeworm article..and now i forgot what i gave
Ivermectin was only two drops..have been told it should have been 1/2cc
but at this point i am hesitant to overdose anything.
i looked at his feather shafts and still see some remnants of dusting from the lice...but these would still be there correct?
i have no idea what to do at this point

I read up on Newcastle disease, and i don't think he has the symptoms for that

The head shaking sounds like ear mites. I had it once and it took a lot of time to track down the problem.

You can suffocate the mites with olive oil. Put a couple drops in his ears every two or three days for a couple weeks and see if that helps. It certainly can't hurt.

YOu say you treated him with IVermectin, 2 drops on his skin.

I have never used Ivermectin, I use Eprinex, but I think people tend to under-dose the birds. I use an eyedropper. Squeeze the bulb, suck up about half a dropper full, and squirt that on the skin. It is MORE than 2 drops. Trying to count out exactly two drops in difficult!

But, if you used a systemic bug zapper, if he does have ears mites, the Ivermectin should get rid of them too. It will not hurt to make sure with a dose of oil in the ears.

I agree that my first thought would be ear mites. But ear mites alone should not be enough to make him so miserable he's huddled off under the roost. Is he frostbit on his wattles or comb? This can make them act miserable too. My big rooster has frostbite on his wattles right now. Don't know why, he lives in a heated hen house!

SOrry, not much to say. Good luck.

I used 3 decent sized drops of ivomec on my birds.

uno wrote: Is he frostbit on his wattles or comb? This can make them act miserable too.

his comb looks normal, nice and red

I just felt him all over and his little drumbsticks are very small..hardly any muscle there at all

Oh dear. This doesn't sound good. It seems to me that you have been researching and doing everything that you possibly can. I don't think you can do any more. It could be so many things, so many things can and do go wrong, and we just don't know. I have seen that bird you speak of, when his days were bright and happy, he is beautiful. This is such a shame. I think he has something, Bigrock, and you will probably never know what it is, honestly, you just never will. What I don't like hearing is that he has lack of muscle and meat on his legs, to me this sounds like he has been ill for a very long time and there has been atrophy in that area. Certainly, when certain muscles are not used, they get weaker and weaker. I think he is terminally ill. So sorry to say that, I do know how proud and fond of this bird you are. That lack of meat and muscle in the legs and thighs, to me, is a huge concern. I think you will find this boy will pass soon. I am being honest and blatent and not meaning to rock any socks, but I see him as unwell. I personally do not think there is anything more you can do. You have treated him well, given him medications for things that would normally be given to bird with certain ailments. I would now just leave him a bit longer, if no improvement on his own. You know, tough love, you don't like to hear this, but I know you have been learning that awful aspect of life, tough love. Sigh...I am sorry for this first year of the poultry world you have entered, you have encountered more than you share of hardships with different things wrong with your birds. But think of the wisdom you have learned, and I know that you are a seeker of knowledge, these are my thoughts. And with that, do try to have an awesome day, look to your critters for things that will make you smile. CynthiaM.

Is he shaking his head or is it like... Stevie Wonder head movement?

The head movement could be Mareks if it's less like shaking and more like... wobbling. The perpetual limp is how Mareks crops up in my flock, and I don't cull for it unless they come off their legs and don't come back up. In my experience, if it is Mareks, the limp is the result of a flare up of the virus, probably due to a lessened immune system. Treat for an immunity boost: Yogurt, vitamins in the water, apple cider vinegar, aloe vera juice; if you want to do conventional medications, I couldn't list them for you as I don't, others would be better able to advise.

If you have Mareks, you have three courses of action you can take:
1) Breed for RESISTANCE by letting the strong who carry it live, thus -knowingly- exposing the rest of your flock on an ongoing basis (which is my choice)
2) Breed for IMMUNITY by culling any and all birds that show definitive Mareks symptoms, thus preventing shedding of the virus from animals known to carry it and, potentially, removing your flocks exposure temporarily.
3) Get a turkey for INNOCULATION by proxy. Turkey's carry a form of the virus naturally, one that does not infect chickens. Thus, the chickens are exposed to the virus and their body is stimulated to build an immunity. This will cull out the weak in a quick fashion, as their immune systems will be lowered and they will either be able to rebuild their systems by themselves (or with a bit of support) or they will not thrive. There are disadvantages to the turkey, I suppose, as they can be exposed to black head via chickens, however I have not yet *knockknock* had that issue.

I do both 1 and 3, though at this time I am turkey-less and have traded up for messy ducks... Puh. Good luck.

Just a quick response to what Sweetened has said. My thoughts are a little different than hers.

There is no such thing as immunity to Mareks. So there is no breeding for that in my opinion.
My idea about resistance is very different. Resistance is when the bird does not succumb to the virus once exposed. In other words doesn't show symptoms and therefore does not become a carrier and actually resists the virus.

By allowing birds that have shown active symptoms remain in your flock, you are breeding birds that Mareks have had an effect on. They in turn will have offspring that will show symptoms when exposed to the virus from the carriers you have in the flock. You losses will be high with this method.

There are also many different types of Mareks. Some show the paralysis, others do not. I had a very good breeder friend that struggled with a variation of the virus that just saw her birds waste away once the contracted it. This one was a lot more difficult to catch quickly. She finally did get some control over it with careful selection, but it was a long road for her.

With culling symptomatic birds you are keeping a flock that has the ability to fight off the symptoms of the virus and have a strong ability to resist Mareks. With no carriers in the flock, the young birds each year do not get over exposed and compromised, and they also carry a natural resistance to the virus genetically.

It does not take long to build this resistance. I had a highly susceptible breed in Australia and Mareks can be quite prevalent there, and in three years I was able to get my loses from 50% down to 3%. Each time a vaccinated bird was introduced to the line the losses would go up as the adult produced offspring that did not have natural resistance, but when bred to my flock the resistance would return, again in about 3 years.

I am not sure if you bird has Mareks Bigrock, it doesn't sound good whatever it may be. I think you have some tough discussions coming up.

^ Coopster is what I meant by Immunity, my choice of wording may have been poor, mind you. By Immunity I meant never shows symptoms. Coops has been doing this a lot longer than I have and has had great success with her methods.

Thus far, my method also hasn't done me wrong, but could very well bite my aft end; I've had a master reset switch hit a few times (dogs), so, really, have no proof of generational improvement when it comes to Mareks . I'm also not the only person who does it this way, it's what works for you, of course. If this ends up not working, I will quickly turn to Coops plans, because it's my other option. As a granola, I am partial to survivability and recoverability. I find value in the ability of an animal to recover, especially from some of the more severe symptoms of Mareks and the brink of death.

There's an Ocular form of Mareks too! It gives their eyes a foggy or cataract look -- saw some at the last auction I went to, refused to buy anything around or near that set of boxes. I don't know if that strain is as deadly?

Sweetened wrote:Is he shaking his head or is it like... Stevie Wonder head movement?

it is more stevie wonder...good job Sweetened...not sure i would have ever come up with that. then the odd shake and back to stevie wonder..but not all the time. There are lots of times that he doesn't do anything.

bigrock wrote:it is more stevie wonder...good job Sweetened...not sure i would have ever come up with that. then the odd shake and back to stevie wonder

That could be either a symptom of a vitamin deficiency if I remember correctly, OR what's called 'stargazing' from Mareks. My boy, who I put down, had that as a first symptom, but I thought maybe there was something bugging him and didn't really think twice until he developed a limp and couldn't walk 2 days later. He would 'Stevie Wonder' his head to one side, almost like it would go to a point and 'slip' and then he'd roll it back to the other side. This would go on for 10-20 seconds usually, sometimes upwards of a minute. Some cases I've seen on youtube are as severe as lifting their heads to drink water and their neck gives out, falls back, rolls to the side and then they can pick it back up again.

I had one other girl who did it very rarely, but she never showed any other signs, and was killed by dogs, so I will never know.

I am not thinking that this is marek's.. i have checked his feather shafts, and where they come out there are no raised areas...the other bird i had who did have Marek's had these raised folicles all over it.
Could this whole thing be caused by a really bad case of lice? He has many places where there are lice eggs...all over..
Cynthia, you think some disease...i guess i will find out.
I will try sweeteneds remedy and just supportive care; see what happens.
yup, tough road this year with chickens...but there are a lot of beautiful birds out there and they do make me smile a lot...so will keep plugging along..
perhaps someone wants to come and visit-have a farm visit..look around see if you can see what i am doing wrong

bigrock wrote:I am not thinking that this is marek's.. i have checked his feather shafts, and where they come out there are no raised areas...the other bird i had who did have Marek's had these raised folicles all over it.
Could this whole thing be caused by a really bad case of lice?  He has many places where there are lice eggs...all over..
Cynthia, you think some disease...i guess i will find out.
I will try sweeteneds remedy and just supportive care; see what happens.
yup, tough road this year with chickens...but there are a lot of beautiful birds out there and they do make me smile a lot...so will keep plugging along..
perhaps someone wants to come and visit-have a farm visit..look around see if you can see what i am doing wrong

If you have a lice issue that bad and NOTHING you've done thus far (which is tons) has worked, get a bag of FEED GRADE Diatomaceous earth and fill a box with it (pool grade will KILL your birds, let alone you). Put him in the box and dust the crap out of him, until you cant tell what colour he is and where the dust ends and his skin begins. Wear a mask. THEN, dust the floor with it, THICK with it. Do the same in a week and repeat for 3 weeks. Maybe you have an extremely resistant mite/lice issue. In the mean time, keep a box of the DE in the middle of the coop for everyone else to get into and stir up a cloud. It'll help your entire coop get done. Make sure you have good ventalation so the dust thats up and about, not settling can get out and not cause respiratory issues. My birds go INSANE for DE, eating it and so on (good for them).

Can't humans catch chicken lice? Didn't I read that somewhere?

Chicken lice are host specific. Yes, the lice can go on human, but they will not live on human. Chicken lice are chicken lice. Specific to poultry. Other lice are specific to host, like goat, horse, etc. I know you like to know things Sweetened. We would never have chicken lice living on our bodies, but human lice, yep, that can be there on the body and human lice will not live on chicken. Have a great day, CynthiaM.

The roo with ear mites moved his head Stevie Wonder style. Don't rule out the chance that your multiple symptoms may be from multiple problems. Often when a bird is sick and their resistance is down the open themselves up to all sorts of issues.

news on the Roo-he is actually finally starting to look a little better. His comb is getting redder and i noticed that his ear lobes are starting to get some colour in them. When i checked before to see where his ears were and to put some olive oil in them-i just saw that they were white. I will put some more olive oil in today, and then leave it. he still shakes his head like he is pissed at something. But i think he is starting to improve! he also seems like he is standing up a little straighter....  

bigrock wrote: When i checked before to see where his ears were and to put some olive oil in them-i just saw that they were white.  I will put some more olive oil in today, and then leave it. 

Are you saying there was some white matter in the ears or that the earlobe itself was white?

I am very happy to hear that the rooster is improving, such a good thing.  It should be remembered though, that chicken lice do not suck the blood of the bird, the feed on the dead skin and other debris, such as feather quill casings, an awful thing.  The northern and red mite feed on the blood.  The article talks about this.  Perhaps the bird had high infestations of both mites and lice and that really set him back.  Birds that roost on the ground, such as he was, because of whatever the reason, are far more susceptible to contracting external parasites.  Being close or on the ground for long periods, i.e., sleeping/roosting, they are a prime target. Anyways, nice to hear that improvements are being seen.  Have a wonderful day, CynthiaM.

This is a very useful site that I have found, easy to find on the internet, which discusses some of the major differences with chicken lice and mites and has some very good pictures.

http://www.the-chicken-chick.com/2012/08/poultry-lice-and-mites-identification.html

Oh Sue, that is a good question and Bigrock, clarify please. The rooster is an Amercauna. What colour are Amercauna ear lobes? I would think not white, so perhaps she meant the ear canal. Clarify please, always nice to know and hear things. Have an awesome day, CynthiaM.

But now still wondering. Wouldn't red or northern fowl mite medication eradicate ear mites as well? Maybe the drops don't travel to the ear. The products that are put on the skin for control go into the lipid layer of the skin (fat layer) and move about that way, maybe that layer is not in the ears. Anyone know this? Now I need to know more things, cause these things are interesting. Are ear mites different than body mites? Geeze, a whole new ball game here, sigh. C.

Ear mites are different. When I had them in my roo there was a white waxy discharge from the ear. It took months to come up with a prognosis and when I put in the oil the problem was done in days. Unfortunately the rooster did not fare well. Having mites for so long disrupted his balance with all the damage they did and he was never 100%. Never bred a girl and died a year later.

[quote="SchipperkesueAre you saying there was some white matter in the ears or that the earlobe itself was white?[/quote]
no white matter in the ears..all i saw was a black muff of fur, now you can actually see some colour appear in the earlobes..

CynthiaM wrote: It should be remembered though, that chicken lice do not suck the blood of the bird, the feed on the dead skin and other debris, such as feather quill casings, an awful thing.  The northern and red mite feed on the blood.  

Thank you Cynthia
I am hearing "blood sucking Lice" in my head...and it must be from some evil B movie or something. When i checked this guys skin, feathers etc, his skin was white white white....and no black specks at all anywhere..not around the vent, under his wings at all. What there were is the flakes of yellowish scabs and lots...i mean lots of eggs up the feather shafts. I will go to the link now and check it out.

I am also getting him out of his cage for physio twice a day....making him walk around the house..throw spinach on the floor which he attacks like it is going to kill him. I figure a bit of exercise will do him some good

yes, i never saw any mite evidence at all.
but there was definitely some anaemia going on..because i have just noticed how his comb has perked up as well