Encouraging Heritage Breeders

Sweetened wrote:It's all in the delivery, and people who say it's not were the people that bullied others in school.

I would be the exception to that statement.

I like you, Authentic, I think you're a great person and my conversations with you, both here and on facebook, pit you as a no bullshit person. I have not experienced you delivering something viciously. Abruptly, but not viciously.

Thanks. I enjoy you, too. lol

authenticfarm wrote:Thanks. I enjoy you, too. lol

Oi, you need better people to be around then LOL

Sweetened wrote:Oi, you need better people to be around then LOL

I'm going to tell them you said that. lol

authenticfarm wrote:

Sweetened wrote:It's all in the delivery, and people who say it's not were the people that bullied others in school.

I would be the exception to that statement.

Me too.  Teacher's kid here, but not the typical teacher's kid so didn't fit into the mold the other kids wanted me to.  School was just something I got thru trying to keep a low profile and playing lots of sports.

Sweetened, I don't recall to many people being vicious here, but maybe when they are I just ignore the idiots (to strong and abrupt?).

I have had positive experiences in the poultry world, both here and in Australia, but again, maybe I just ignore the idiots.......

authenticfarm wrote:

Sweetened wrote:Oi, you need better people to be around then LOL

I'm going to tell them you said that. lol

*Facepalm*


coopster, yet another person who has taken something personally when you've been constructive in your delivery of critique and criticism.

This forum isn't terrible, but there are a few people here who are jerks like the "other side", and I assume they're jerks there as well. I usually stay out of these things. Probably should have this time as well.

Sweetened I guessed that I could fit your comment because I am abrupt and use my outside voice when I often shouldn't. I think I do step on toes and offend people, although it is not my intention. (I blame my mother for not socialising me better!! ) I am opinionated and think I push it to far, just ask Hubby about that.....
So I wasn't offended by what you said, just that I wasn't a bully in school, maybe slightly the other way but I usually blended in enough when the shit was flying I didn't often cop any.

Never feel bad for contributing, that is what makes it interesting. I think there are jerks everywhere we just have to learn to ignore the idiots........

Here are two responses I got when I first got into birds (yes, I'm a hoarder and keep this stuff), guess who became my mentor for two of my chosen breeds, the first one this person (because it is cut and paste I left his name out...sought me out and sent me this as a PM after I joined a forum), the second one I sought him out via a forum contact that I was referred to as someone in my area.

#1:

"Hi Theresa,

Welcome to the Group and welcome to Welsummers? Do you plan to show your Wellies? There are a couple of folks from ## that come to the shows down here in WA. Heather Hayes and Joe Mazur being two and they both do very well at the shows. Heather is often one of our judges too. Where did you get your Welsummers from?

You may want to keep me in mind for the future. As with my Ameraucanas, I have gotten my Welsummers from good lineage as well. I got my original start in Welsummers from a Welsummer Breeder who is one of the original five breeders of Welsummers in the USA . He, Lowell Barber (deceased), another breeder (who was a close friend of Lowell), Horst Greczmiel (deceased) and another guy (the one from OR) were the folks that got the Welsummers accepted by the APA at the National Show in 1991 in Vancouver, WA. Those five also got the Barnevelders accepted by the APA at the same time.

I have been talking for quite some time with the lady who was mentored by Lowell Barber and acquired his line of Welsummers when he got rid of them. Her original hens are 8, 9, and 10 years old and I am obtaining birds that came from eggs that were directly from those Lowell Barber original birds. I am extremely humbled, thankful and most appreciative that I was able to obtain these before the original birds no longer exist.

You may like to know that I will be keeping three separate lines. The German line from my original breeder, the Netherlands/UK line from the original Barber birds and the third line will be of my own as I mix and match the three.

As for Barnies, I have a line from my original breeder and I’ve got birds that come from the KC, vB, and Farmer Johan lines. My egg color is getting better and is now much darker than when I started with them but none of them compare to Welsummers - yet. Egg color is something we are all working on with the Barnies.

Should you ever want WBS Ameraucanas, I also raise, breed, and show them. My original birds came from Paul Smith who got his original birds from Wayne Meredith and then later some from Barbara Campbell who also got her started Wheatens/Blue Wheatens from Wayne . Most good Wheatens and Blue Wheatens can be traced back to Wayne .

Just FYI, I raise, breed, and show my birds. My breeding program focuses primarily on APA SOPs, egg color and size, with production being a secondary consideration as well. You can see pics of my birds and eggs on my website (#). Just click on the "Welsummer" and "My Eggs' album to see them. Everything else you see on my website, I’ve either gotten rid of or keep just a couple around for eye candy."


#2

My email:

"Good morning, I am wondering if you have hatching eggs available. I have heard you have a very nice line of "#" that I am interested in. I look forward to your response. Cheers, Theresa "

Response: "I don't sell hatching eggs."

Guess who my mentor became.

Notice #1 asks my plans and what I intend to do. He tells me what he has. He took a few minutes to write an informative email. And he has many, many poultry world accomplishments to his name, but didn't use that and instead kept to basics and told me what he had, the lines, a quick history lesson and asked me what I would like to do.

Number #2 completely slammed the door in my face IMO. Had he gone on to say he had chicks, adults, WHY, I still would have been interested. Even a "how did you find me", or "what brings you to ### breed. And if they don't like typing, cut and paste...use a standard reply.

Number #1 became my mentor for Barnevelders and Welsummers, and initially wellies were my interest but his passion and stunning birds drew me to barnies. AND this person does not puff me up with fluffy lullabies. He is hard nose when it comes to a critique. When I ask him for a critique, or ask him what he thinks I should work on, I work on it and I listen. And not everything easy to hear, but I hear it and listen to it. Here's the thing...I either ask him, or he asks me if he can tell me something - of course my answer is always yes. I have conversed with this person at every corner and every decision. And he is willing to share his own bad mistakes and pitfalls, he certainly is humble and doesn't place himself on a pedestal. He's been working at his lines, that started from really good blood, and every year he's working on one or two traits - STILL - after 20 years. I get it, it's a long road. And he has winning birds, very winning birds in very large shows. I am very fortunate to have #1 as a mentor.

AND THAT is what will inspire people to become involved. Information, sharing, inspiring, asking. #1 is already creating a legacy that people want to be a part of, and has many people in line to get his birds and eggs. #2 has fantastic birds, but is likely to go to the grave with some really nice birds beside them because, in my experience, have not been encouraging or inspiring people to be a part of what they do. Maybe they were having a bad day, I don't know, but I went on to purchase XXX breed elsewhere.

I want to be like #1, and I think #1 is what needs to happen, in my humble opinion, to keep Heritage Breed Breeders coming and interested. Closing doors in peoples faces won't inspire or encourage anyone.

People should be given the truth. No coddling.

But at the same time, the truth can be delivered with respect.

islandgal99 wrote:Here are two responses I got when I first got into birds (yes, I'm a hoarder and keep this stuff), guess who became my mentor for two of my chosen breeds, the first one this person (because it is cut and paste I left his name out...sought me out and sent me this as a PM after I joined a forum), the second one I sought him out via a forum contact that I was referred to as someone in my area.

#1:

"Hi Theresa,

Welcome to the Group and welcome to Welsummers?  Do you plan to show your Wellies?  There are a couple of folks from ## that come to the shows down here in WA.  Heather Hayes and Joe Mazur being two and they both do very well at the shows.  Heather is often one of our judges too.  Where did you get your Welsummers from?

You may want to keep me in mind for the future.  As with my Ameraucanas, I have gotten my Welsummers from good lineage as well.  I got my original start in Welsummers from a Welsummer Breeder who is one of the original five breeders of Welsummers in the USA .  He, Lowell Barber (deceased), another breeder (who was a close friend of Lowell), Horst Greczmiel (deceased) and another guy (the one from OR) were the folks that got the Welsummers accepted by the APA at the National Show in 1991 in Vancouver, WA.  Those five also got the Barnevelders accepted by the APA at the same time.  

I have been talking for quite some time with the lady who was mentored by Lowell Barber and acquired his line of Welsummers when he got rid of them.  Her original hens are 8, 9, and 10 years old and I am obtaining birds that came from eggs that were directly from those Lowell Barber original birds.  I am extremely humbled, thankful and most appreciative that I was able to obtain these before the original birds no longer exist.

You may like to know that I will be keeping three separate lines.  The German line from my original breeder, the Netherlands/UK line from the original Barber birds and the third line will be of my own as I mix and match the three.

As for Barnies, I have a line from my original breeder and I’ve got birds that come from the KC, vB, and Farmer Johan lines.  My egg color is getting better and is now much darker than when I started with them but none of them compare to Welsummers - yet.  Egg color is something we are all working on with the Barnies.

Should you ever want WBS Ameraucanas, I also raise, breed, and show them.  My original birds came from Paul Smith who got his original birds from Wayne Meredith and then later some from Barbara Campbell who also got her started Wheatens/Blue Wheatens from Wayne .  Most good Wheatens and Blue Wheatens can be traced back to Wayne .

Just FYI, I raise, breed, and show my birds.  My breeding program focuses primarily on APA SOPs, egg color and size, with production being a secondary consideration as well.  You can see pics of my birds and eggs on my website (#).  Just click on the "Welsummer" and "My Eggs' album to see them.  Everything else you see on my website, I’ve either gotten rid of or keep just a couple around for eye candy."


#2

My email:

"Good morning, I am wondering if you have hatching eggs available.  I have heard you have a very nice line of "#" that I am interested in. I look forward to your response.  Cheers, Theresa "

Response: "I don't sell hatching eggs."

Guess who my mentor became.

Notice #1 asks my plans and what I intend to do.  He tells me what he has.  He took a few minutes to write an informative email.  And he has many, many poultry world accomplishments to his name, but didn't use that and instead kept to basics and told me what he had, the lines, a quick history lesson and asked me what I would like to do.  

Number #2 completely slammed the door in my face IMO.  Had he gone on to say he had chicks, adults, WHY, I still would have been interested.  Even a "how did you find me", or "what brings you to ### breed.  And if they don't like typing, cut and paste...use a standard reply.

Number #1 became my mentor for Barnevelders and Welsummers, and initially wellies were my interest but his passion and stunning birds drew me to barnies.  AND this person does not puff me up with fluffy lullabies.  He is hard nose when it comes to a critique. When I ask him for a critique, or ask him what he thinks I should work on, I work on it and I listen. And not everything easy to hear, but I hear it and listen to it.   Here's the thing...I either ask him, or he asks me if he can tell me something - of course my answer is always yes.  I have conversed with this person at every corner and every decision.  And he is willing to share his own bad mistakes and pitfalls, he certainly is humble and doesn't place himself on a pedestal.  He's been working at his lines, that started from really good blood, and every year he's working on one or two traits - STILL - after 20 years.  I get it, it's a long road.  And he has winning birds, very winning birds in very large shows.  I am very fortunate to have #1 as a mentor.  

AND THAT is what will inspire people to become involved.  Information, sharing, inspiring, asking.  #1 is already creating a legacy that people want to be a part of, and has many people in line to get his birds and eggs.  #2 has fantastic birds, but is likely to go to the grave with some really nice birds beside them because, in my experience, have not been encouraging or inspiring people to be a part of what they do. Maybe they were having a bad day, I don't know, but I went on to purchase XXX breed elsewhere.  

I want to be like #1, and I think #1 is what needs to happen, in my humble opinion, to keep Heritage Breed Breeders coming and interested.  Closing doors in peoples faces won't inspire or encourage anyone.  

Your interpretation is interesting.  I don't consider the second email to be a door shut in your face.  In the second email the responder knew nothing about you and don't forget, you contacted him, not vice versa.  If I received that response I may have inquired further about what he does sell, but I would also give more information about myself as well so he knows I don't just want eggs to hatch and start pumping out birds to sell- hatchery style.  When you have worked hard on a breed for many years you want those you entrust your breeding with to be as serious as you are.  The onus is on you to make sure that a breeder knows your qualifications and intentions.

#1 sounds like a sales pitch with a lot of name dropping. Did it work? Did you buy birds/eggs from him?

#2 sounds like a serious, serious breeder. The highest-level breeders I have chatted with often DO NOT sell hatching eggs. They ONLY sell birds that they have grown out to a point where they feel comfortable with their level of quality, and only then will they sell them to someone else - and likely, that someone else is a person whom they have gotten to know and will be able to trust with their bloodlines. ie. not someone who e-mails them out of the blue.

I would rather deal with #2.

Luckily for us all, there are all kinds of chicken folks, and there's a buyer and a seller for everyone.

Schipperkesue wrote:

islandgal99 wrote:I really don't get this beat people down and it's ok attitude in the poultry world.

I have never noticed this attitude in the poultry world.  No one has ever been nasty to me about my birds nor been too harsh with their criticism.  I only wish there were more people with poultry expertise willing to comment, compare and criticize my birds.  Unfortunately they seem very hesitant to share their thoughts.  I wonder why...

The first time I proudly showed some Houdans and Cornish to Rico he said, "Your Houdan is duckfooted and should not be bred.  The two Cornish are just ok but the third is a cross and should be excluded from your breeding program."  It was a shock but it was the truth.  I did not feel beaten down in the least.  Disappointed, yes, but I am both tough and determined and marshaled my resources to make improvements.  I feel that when you receive criticism by a knowledgeable person you are receiving a gift.  How you take and use that gift is up to you.

I find people on both ends of the spectrum, some amazing, passionate and generous people and some at the other end.  I haven't taken birds to a show, but when I do get there I will have a notebook in hand and write down the good, bad and ugly.  Yes, a critique from a judge willing to tell you what they think is valuable. A judge I would consider an expert, and will definitely listen and be honored they will take a minute to speak with me. But that's also a different scenario - I'm going to a show to have my animal(s) judged, I expect this at a show, it's an opportunity at an outside opinion of my birds where someone will put their hands on your birds and give you a good and honest evaluation on not just feathers, but on structure, body, bone, build and all the other things that make a chicken a chicken.  A show is CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, and you asked to have your bird be judged and so he is giving you an opinion.  A show is a different world.

My first chickens were Murray McMurray chickens 20? some odd years ago.  I was 14 and thought they were beautiful.  We got a 100 bird assortment in each bantams and large foul.  I had bearded, top-hatted, booted, rose-combed, tiny, large - you name it, it was in that assortment.  I built little breeding pens for the different breeds - I learned to use a hammer and cut lumber and build things.  I learned about the different breeds from pouring through the murray mcmurray catalog and through a book we had in the school library.  I learned about chickens.  I learned about breeds.  Were those birds SOP birds - probably not and most likely not.  But it built my love for chickens at an early age and without that experience I wouldn't likely be interested now. I might have even bred them if it were not for the neighbors dogs killing every one. Not everyone is going to have SOP birds, or even be interested in SOP birds. But why beat people down before knowing what the plans are, when maybe, just maybe, a few moments in talking individually with that person you could inspire someone to choose SOP birds by being nice, MAYBE even your birds?  Maybe they've been looking for a mentor.  Maybe better chickens and couldn't find them. But you won't know if you are just mean to them and don't ask some questions about what they want to do and where they want to go. Had someone asked me at 14 what I wanted to do with my chickens, I'd have likely responded with "I want to have the best in the world". And someone had said, "here, let me work with you and show you how..." what a difference that would have been to "your birds are hatchery birds and they suck". Both can potentially say the same thing, but the approach is totally different and the result is totally different.  

Had I been beaten down when I had my first chickens, think I'd still be interested?  I don't know, and it has nothing to do with backbone cause I've got lots of that.  But I'm thinking of the people who aren't as strong - I have a bad habit of jumping in for the underdog, like the 4H girl who helps me with my chickens when I'm away...nicest girl on the island, very knowledgable, trust her 100% watching my animals and she is an amazing and trustworthy person.  Would she be an asset to heritage chickens, absolutely.  Would she handle unsolicited destructive criticism, probably not - she's quiet, gentle and mild mannered, and would likely hit that brick wall sooner than others.  Does that make her less worthy of being involved? I don't think so, and if I were to have an opportunity to help her in any part of her future in what ever she decides to do, I will be happy to do it. And again, I'm not talking constructive critisim like at a show where you asked for the feedback, you engaged in a meeting of an expert and a bird for him/her to critique - you've asked for that.  And she's shown in 4h shows. I'm talking the unsolicited destructive kind, where the owner can't just like, or sell, a bird they think is nice without creating controversy. Would the 4h girl breed SOP birds, yup.  Would mean and bullying comments send her crying, probably. If she became involved, would she show and would she inspire others to show? Yup. SO why would you ever beat her down?

I didn't know about the underground world of chicken forums, and before I found a kijiji add which led me to google a breeed and the forums popped up, I was likely going to go the Murray McMurray route again and was already looking into it.  I didn't know there was a world of chicken breeders outside hatcheries.  So this has all been a learning experience for me. But it has been an experience, as I've met all sorts of people on both ends.

Fowler wrote:People should be given the truth.  No coddling.

But at the same time, the truth can be delivered with respect.  

I agree.

authenticfarm wrote:#1 sounds like a sales pitch with a lot of name dropping. Did it work? Did you buy birds/eggs from him?

#2 sounds like a serious, serious breeder. The highest-level breeders I have chatted with often DO NOT sell hatching eggs. They ONLY sell birds that they have grown out to a point where they feel comfortable with their level of quality, and only then will they sell them to someone else - and likely, that someone else is a person whom they have gotten to know and will be able to trust with their bloodlines. ie. not someone who e-mails them out of the blue.

I would rather deal with #2.

Luckily for us all, there are all kinds of chicken folks, and there's a buyer and a seller for everyone.

I guess it's all a matter of perspective then isn't it. Because to me #1 shows passion in his breed and knows the importance of inspiring and educating people. He has a lot of pride around his chickens, it's his passion and it's what he does with every spare moment of his life. But because he took a few minutes to ask about where i wanted to go, and told me a little about what he had, he was able to see if I was worthy of his knowledge and information, and this person has contributed hours and hours of his time helping me with questions which I so appreciate.

#2, had they said they had adults or anything, I would have still been interested. To me they weren't interested in my business, so their loss not mine as I was able to find a good line elsewhere.

Sweetened wrote:It's all in the delivery, and people who say it's not were the people that bullied others in school.  I take offense to the statement that those who are weeded (or weed themselves) out of school are those without backbone because I have backbone.

You can build people up while being critical.  For example, to a person who sleeps around when drunk too much: "Listen you drunk floozy, stop humping everything you see."  They are going to get up in arms, shut down and ignore you, go get drunk and do the nasty with every person that'll sleep with them.  If you say "Hello friend, I think we should talk about something, and just hear me out.  I think you have a problem, and I'm not sure if you realize how you are when you get drunk and what it might be doing to your life.  I'd hate to see ______________ or ______________ happen to you because I think you're a great person."

Now, if that person doesn't take advice and acts like an idiot, then you can move on from that delivery and call them a floozy because, well, they'll take it the same way.  However you're far less likely to have someone shut down, become unresponsive and discouraged, resulting in a spiral downwards.

People who don't get encouragement and constructive criticism will not excel.  I agree, children need to be told 'no', people must understand that no, this or that is NOT within their capabilities, but they need to be told why so that the principle is clear, rather than some vicious attack.  I was bullied my entire school life and I can tell you, to this day I have no idea what I did to attract the attention.  If someone had said: "You're a jerk because your Mom gets beat on by her boyfriends," then I could have made the correlation that because my Mom was considered substandard by those in her life that I would be too.  Instead, I'm still dumbfounded at the idiocy and clueless as to why I have deep rooted issues that I can't flush out.

The problem with this world isn't people being pansied, it's people not being told WHY and being attacked.  This world is violent, vicious, ruthless, and every man for themselves, and THAT's the issue.  No one has the TIME to take TIME and explain why, they just beat someone down to a level they feel is significantly lower than them and stand on the remains like some member of Royalty who controls its subjects, loyal or otherwise.

I hear you Sweetened and my experience was similar...I was bullied from grade 1 through grade 11 1/2 when I had enough, by one girl and her group of cronies. And later a boy and his group joined in, though he later told me it was because he had a crush and didn't know how to express it????? So he opted for bullying? 11.5 years of my life.  And half way through grade 12 I had enough and went to a different school when the opportunity presented.  One of the girls came up to me at grade 12 grad (which I did go to as I still had some friends there) and said, "wanna know why we hated you all those years?", and I said "humour me".  They told me a story of grade one and running laps for milk money when we finished assignments early and during recess and lunch, and that the teacher didn't believe they had run more laps than me so only gave them the same laps.  I wasn't even in the room!!!  And that spear-headed the remaining 11.5 years of bullying.  Well, and I was a pig-farmers daughter, that didn't help.  I was literally kicked, shoved, beaten, bloodied, had my clothes burned, my shoes stolen (in winter and had to walk sock footed in -30 weather) and the worst was the name calling which never stopped.  

I don't get it.  I don't understand it.  I don't like it.  And I'm the first one now to jump in and stop it.  During the school run, I stay in the lounges and watch for it.  It #$%^es me off and nobody's going to be bullied while I'm watching.

Am I stronger because of it, probably, but it doesn't make it right.  Have I accomplished more in my life that the bullies - ABSOLUTELY - most never left the area and are miserable in their existence if they are even alive. Do I have a better life than any of the people who bullied me - better than all of them.  Will I ever forget it, probably not.  And am I sensitive when I perceive bullying behavior whether directed at me or someone else - YOU BET, and I will jump up and scream and yell about it. Would I have been a better person had I experienced a more nurturing and positive youth experience, I think so.  But those were the cards I was dealt, and I made the most of it.  The first choice when able to make it was to get the $ell as far away from that town as I could as soon as I could - call it running away, but it was the best journey I ever took, and I've never looked back.

Lol, i am number 2 here.. I really dont care to get your business!! I am not in it for a business!! Why would I sell eggs to a person I dont know at all from the birds I spend great time and effort in?? Just so you can flaunt the online and sell eggs from my stock? I will tell you.. I have been burnt before especially with the rabbits and therefor very careful who I share animals with. I also know who your mentor is and he asks me questions that he does not know the answers to, I know nothing more than him, but we help each other by sharing our own experiences. I just know how we do things in Holland and what we want to see in these HOLLAND birds! Teresa.. I get emails all the time and i should delete them rather than respond probably. Pick ip the phone and talk to me. You went and visisted R. and got eggs, it is much better to go see one in person. Obviously this is all aimed at me and indont know why you are so mad for some reason and I will not comment on any of your birds anymore because you only want to hear the things you want.In Holland we call that "east indian deaf"

Piet wrote:Lol, i am number 2 here.. I really dont care to get your business!! I am not in it for a business!! Why would I sell eggs to a person I dont know at all from the birds I spend great time and effort in?? Just so you can flaunt the online and sell eggs from my stock? I will tell you.. I have been burnt before especially with the rabbits and therefor very careful who I share animals with. I also know who your mentor is and he asks me questions that he does not know the answers to, I know nothing more than him, but we help each other by sharing our own experiences. I just know how we do things in Holland and what we want to see in these HOLLAND birds! Teresa.. I get emails all the time and i should delete them rather than respond probably. Pick ip the phone and talk to me. You went and visisted R. and got eggs, it is much better to go see one in person. Obviously this is all aimed at me and indont know why you are so mad for some reason and I will not comment on any of your birds anymore because you only want to hear the things you want.In Holland we call that "east indian deaf"

I apologize Piet if you think that was about you, I'm pretty sure I've never contacted you, that was someone with an entirely different breed. I didn't know about you or your birds until the r mentioned them to me. I hear they are pretty spectacular based on what he said. But until he told me about you, how would I even find out about you and your amazing birds? As a newbie who's passion is becoming more and more barnevelders, I would love to be able to work with someone like you. But as you said above...not likely to happen because I'm new and I probably wouldn't have asked the right question. I was previously upset about what I perceived as a hijack on a sales thread but what-ever, I'll get over it, I was even more upset at the "hehe" in the follow up thread that was posted later about the same breed- when I put the two together I saw it as mocking. If that was your intent or not, I don't know. But it did lead me to question what I did wrong, cause it seemed apparent that I did, but also the whys of the response but not just the past few days but this whole journey. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who has experienced the challenges.

That's the thing, us newbies would love to have those great connections right at the beginning but how do we find them, how do we make connections when we don't who to ask or know the right questions to ask? I live on a little island in BF nowhere, how do I find people if its not on forums, online, emails??? I work shifts so sometimes calls are daunting, as the return call is usually I am trying to sleep. And because we are newbies, how does one go from newbie to non-newbie? I wouldn't have found r if he had not of contacted me. And it worked out to get some eggs from that line, but I really doubt that sale would have made him much in the way of any dollars when considering the time investment he has contributed to assisting and helping. Not only that, but his prices were so low I think he should be selling them for more, way more. So I'm pretty sure he wasn't trying to make a money, his purpose was driven from his passion.

I still don't understand why people aren't interested in a conversation. Thats what the thread is about. Bringing on new people. I have asked enquiries about eggs because we have challenges getting birds and chicks through two ferries, all the waits, and the distances involved. I did buy some adult birds from alberta once, 24 hours, road closure, missed ferry....long time for birds to be cooped up in a car beside you and dang stressful trip. But have a conversation, and you would understand that if I could instead buy a lovely trio of grown birds I would be ecstatic even if faced with a 24 hour trip. And I have tried to buy adults - it's virtually impossible to do, um guess why...cause I'm a newbie.

So if you can't buy eggs because the breeder wont sell them, never
mind trying to find 300 of them, can't buy birds because your new, how do you start if old people aren't willing to bring new people and mentor them. So we start with what we can get and criticized for that too. I hatched every single barnevelder egg this year that I could once my bators were up and running (except 1 dozen to a friend), and see improvement over the parents already. Saw one girl today and was like "wow, where did you come from", way better than moms, far from perfect. Same with boys, a couple of really nice boys, far from perfect but better than dad. It's going to be a long hard road, and at this point seeing babies better than parent is all I can ask for. The journey would be easier for sure had I been able to start with SOP adults but that wasn't the path I could find.

So am I designed to newbie status forever? I'm fine with that btw. Because I do intend to never stop learning.

Islandgirl i help anybody who is keen to learn. With the horses its always been like that with me too, if you listnen and want to do it right i stay up late hours to help and talk your ear off about showjumping. If you are looking for someone to hold your hand and not have the desire to advance, find someone else. Whatever hobby or sport it be (funny that in Holland we call the poultry fancy also a sport) that goes the same for it. So, maybe we meet one day and we can drool all over Barnevelders and I will make sure you want some Wellies also, but this online BS is just to tough to deal with for me at times because I always receive backfires over something I did not even knew I did. Old fasion I am. But I hope you dont think I am old..32 and father of a 6 month old little girl. I never sold eggs and never will for several reasons. My flocks have given me joy , but also lots of blood sweat and tears.. Really yes. I grow everything out and cull, whatever i have too much that i cannot keep for myself but is a good bird can be sold. For those I want a pretty penny. But its a one in 20 birds bird from my breeder birds.

I took it that we were simply discussing in general terms, not about anyone in particular.

Fowler wrote:I took it that we were simply discussing in general terms, not about anyone in particular.

I felt the same way, but perhaps that is what this discussion is truly all about.  Misinterpretation of words typed upon a page.  Reading things into what people have written.  No context for comprehension of what a person truly means, taken from a scant handful of words they have typed.

Where did this all start?  I remember.  Piet said,

"Is that hen on the last pic supposed to be a gold laced Wyandotte?"

Is the the word, "supposed" the problem here?  Does "supposed" make the question seem rude or demeaning?

How about if Piet said, "Is that hen on the last pic a gold laced Wyandotte?"  How does that sound?  Less confrontational perhaps?  Less judgmental?  

Could it be that this all started with the use of one word?

General rule of thumb for everything on the internet, ever:

Don't take anything too seriously. It was probably typed from a smartphone while someone was pooping.

Ugh.

ipf wrote:Ugh.

That sums it up, yep.

"Imagine a world where nobody was interested in heritage breeds anymore, and content to allow factories raise our food. Or maybe you have the most perfect specimen of a breed, but there are no shows to take it to, no sales to talk about it or sell it at, no forums interested in what you have to say, and nobody interested in what you are even doing."

I started this post in part because of frustration that it seems I was being questioned for selling non SOP birds at non SOP prices with clear photos and IMO I wasn't misrepresenting anything, but I also realized how hard it has been at times to find what I'm looking for, and what happens if all the people like me don't find what they need. This thread was not to single anyone out. And it's not about me, or anyone in specific, it's about encouraging new people. I refer to myself as a newbie, and I've referred to my own struggles, but I'm also inspiring people to join the heritage chicken movement and I think I'm allowed to do that. And I wonder if others are as well, or why they are not, because in my journey I've met the people on both sides and don't understand the one side. I responded to Piet as he thought this thread was about him, so I responded to him about the specific threads he mentioned, and the one that followed. But this wasn't about him or anyone else, it was a general thought provoking question, and that question based on a combination of many of my experiences, not just the past few days.

The meat of the bones is this - if newcomers are not encouraged and inspired by experienced breeders, how does this fancy to survive?  

In order for me to get SOP birds, starting with eggs is frowned on. And and it was clear most experienced breeders wont sell eggs anyhow. I certainly have not encountered anyone who can supply the 300 recommended eggs. I'm new so won't be sold SOP breeders, I've tried. And starting with what I can get to start with is frowned on. And shipping chicks is risky and like eggs, doesn't guarantee SOP birds and again, who has 300 chicks. And with our location, many and sometimes over half of chicks are lost in transit by the time they arrive. No chicks, no eggs, no birds...tough to start.

I live in the middle of nowhere, its where my job is located is so wont be moving. Two ferry rides to get to anywhere big. I work shifts and almost every weekend, and for sure weekends where there is an event like the VIEX or PNE, so can't get to shows to meet people. And I I'm being told not to expect to meet people on forums or online and to question those meetings, and if I don't ask the right question I won't get a response or will get a less than favorable response. And because I'm new I might not get a response. And experienced breeders don't want to be bothered with a newbie unless I know them, but I can't get to know them because of location and work. But the people who are embracing and helpful are just salespeople and to be avoided.

I don't see how any of this is encouraging to anyone. And i know I'm not the only one to encounter these road blocks. So where is a newbie left to go?  That's my frustration. It was obvious to me I made some forbidden newbie mistake in selling non sop birds at non sop prices and posting non SOP birds. So I'm trying to make sense of it. I do remember going through the forum as an excited newbie a few years back, going through the breeder listings, and sending PM's to the people with my desired breeds - most didn't respond, I think it was two did but didn't have the breeds anymore, and only one person was able to help out with what I was looking for. I was surprised at only one response, but pleased I got atleast one response.

But what other options do I have given the above. And again, I'm using myself as an example so there is no confusion, and I'm seriously asking, what other options are there?  Because I don't see any options other than the ones I have had to choose in order to get the limited number of birds I had to start with. And that was bunch of chicks combined with a bunch of eggs, but certainly not in the 300 chick or egg range, not even close.

If what I have been doing is wrong, how do I fix it and break through these barriers. And really, should these barriers even be there?  Many experienced breeders spoke up to basically say they won't waste time on new people. So where are new people to go?  How do you start unless experienced breeders embrace new people, and if those people who do help new people are just sales people and also to be avoided, that leaves - um - nobody.