How do Breed Standards become standard for the Breed?

R. Roo wrote:Ive read somewhere that the lighter colored shanks are related to finer meat qualities, dont know if its really true but it seems reasonable to assume that we are selecting against nature's wild type for many of the qualities we demand in poultry. A good example is the cushion comb and small wattles in chantecler, they are in opposition to nature's vision for fertility in that larger combs/wattles are more desirable to the females sense of attraction. I also read more and more about people questioning the wisdom and authority of the standards and especially pedigree systems of breeding. Personally I agree that the standards do not take into account any actual function of the animals in question, only the appearance of the animal. My personal battles with willow shanks proves shank trubbles can be beaten however I still question why I had to bother with it when it makes no difference to eggs or my ability to consume the carcass, only the arbitrary standards made these efforts necessary, for what though?? someone else's sense of beauty? With my chosen breeds the authority has changed the phenotype envisioned by their creators further dividing the social and economic potentials to certain advantages or disadvantages. Is it really better for the chicken? or for me? or the authority?

After reading pre-WW1 books on breeding poultry I find it obvious there is a severe lack of knowledge among amateur breeders, there is a ton of stuff which is unsaid, never spoken or discussed among competitive breeders. I think that the real experts are never heard from as their information is proprietary, industry has won this one hands down and as long as we fight with the phenotypes they keep their economic advantage. Chickens are food, food is power. I got nuthin' but chicken LOL.

KathyS wrote:I have a general question about how the standards for the different breeds actually develop and become the accepted standard.
What got me thinking was one of several discussions on here about the difficulties many of us face while trying to produce the desired yellow shanks on a Black or Blue Cochin. It seems that getting pure yellow legs on a Black bird or a dilute (i.e. blue) is a real challenge.

This made me wonder why yellow came to be the accepted color for Blue and Black Cochin legs. I did a little comparison with some other breeds:
Cochin
White - Shanks & Toes: Yellow
Buff - Shanks & Toes: Yellow
Blue - Shanks and toes: Male - Yellow, bottoms of feet, yellow. Female yellow of dusky yellow, yellow preferred. Bottom of feet - yellow.
Black - Shanks and toes: Male - Yellow, bottoms of feet, yellow. Female yellow or dusky yellow, yellow preferred. Bottom of feet - yellow.

Plymouth Rock
White Rock - Shanks & Toes: Rich Yellow
Buff Rock - Shanks & Toes - Rich Yellow
Blue Rocks-Shanks and Toes - Male - yellow; Female - yellow or dusky yellow; yellow prefered.

Wyandottes
White Wyandottes - rich Yellow
Buff - Rich Yellow
Blue - Rich Yellow

Orpingtons
White - Shanks & toes pinkish white
Buff - Shanks & toes Pinkish white
Blue - Shanks & toes Leaden blue, bottom of feet and toes, pinkish white.
Black - Shanks & toes Black in young, shading to dark slate in adults; bottoms of feet and toes, pinkish White.

I have never had to put in any extra effort to get slate shanks in Black or blue orps. It just seems to happen naturally without any effort on my part!

So why does the standard vary like this amongst the different breeds? It would be so easy to consistently produce slate legs on the blue cochins. This seems to be the natural inclination, and its like a contradiction happening between skin/shank color and feather color? That is probably not an accurate statement, but I'd love to hear a scientific explanation.
All I know is its a good thing there is some leeway allowed with the term dusky yellow....unlike with the Wyandottes!

Does anyone here breed Blue Wyandottes? I wonder if the same problems exist with regard to yellow shanks?

I like the looks of bright yellow on the blacks and blues and have seen a lot of cochins if not all with real nice yellow .

Piet wrote:Pm'd you kathy

CynthiaM wrote:

Piet wrote:Pm'd you kathy

Why don't you PM me too? I am raising blue and black cochins too, I am working hard to get yellow leggers too on this breed, don't forget about me....have a most awesome day, good discussion Kathy, CynthiaM.

Leg colours
The leg colours in chickens are a bit complicated in a way they’re determined by a few things together. For this I refer to the skin colours as well because its connected. What’s leg colour physical?
The leg consists of a bone, tendons, covered with membranes, then follows dermis and finally the epidermis. The epidermis can be white or yellow it’s the skin colour. Black pigment cells are located in both dermis and epidermis. Which factors determine the leg colour?

a. Black pigment in the inside of the leg, the dermis, is also controlled by the e-allele (feather colour basis). The darkest chickens are E extended black and ER birchen. These birds have in general dark legs of which both dermis and epidermis are dark.
Also when the birds are based on other e-alleles the legs can be dark, think of duckwing (e+), these have greyish legs, although far less dark compared to E and ER birds. The e-allele wheaten (eWh) lights up dermal melanin a bit.
b. Id means inhibitor of dermal black pigment or melanin. Id and its counterpart id+ determine whether or not dark pigment is in the dermis. Id inhibits dermal dark pigment and id+, recessive and sexlinked, allows dark pigment in the dermis. A duckwing has id+. A black chicken with white or yellow legs has Id, very simply said.
c. Skin colour mixes with optical dark pigmentation of the inside of the leg resulting in blue or grey legs when the skin is white (W+), or green legs when its yellow (w).
d. The amount of black in the feathers has influence on the epidermis, the outer skin layer of the leg. A black chicken will therefore show a dark hue on the legs (also when Id), beak, nails and the eyes are darker as well compared to a lighter coloured colleague of the same breed. Melanisation is generally stronger in hens compared to roosters.
e. Feather colour has also influence of id+. Dominant and recessive white can bleach dermal pigment a bit. Cuckoo/barred (B) inhibits dermal strongly and when B/B dermal pigment disappears. Mottled (mo) can make dermal pigment spotty or (partly) disappear. Gold diluter Di makes dermal pigment lighter as well.