Tender Meat Ethics?

I still troll around on the other forum, and a discussion about disappointment in the toughness of cockerels got me thinking. There was a comment that not letting the cockerels range much will help keep the meat tender. I agree with this, non-ranged chickens will have less developed musculature.

My question is this: is it ethical to do something like that? Does limiting their housing and range space diminish the quality of life of a chicken, and if so is it okay to do this for the pleasure of our palettes? I pose the same question to the raising of broilers at all. In the quest for a tender chicken breast, do we have the right to alter the genetics and lifestyle of the birds to the extent that we have done?

I don't post real questions over there (it gets too weird) so I'm asking here. My curiosity has been piqued, and I'm itching for a good debate.

I think a bird, confined in a yard area where it can move around, dig, dust bathe, have food and water, shade from the sun, protection from the cold, is NOT unethically kept. If you can provide enough space and other environmental requirements that the natural instincts of the animal are not thwarted, then I consider that ethical.

Any animal in an enclosoure too small to allow for proper movement and some ranging, is NOT ethically kept. Caged layers, no. Broilers jammed cheek by jowl in ammonia stinking barns, no. Pigs in farrowing stalls, no. Veal in tiny little solitary confinement stalls, no.

My meatbirds are confined, but in a yard. I only raise as many as my space will ethically allow. And because meat birds seem to be notoriously stupid, protecting them from predators is my obligation and responsibilitiy. THey cannot really run for safety. So their life, as short as it is, is one of the most comfort I can provide, and safety. And a quick, efficient death at the end.

As for growing out roosters, who are more mobile than meatbirds, is it humane to keep them confined to a small pen for months on end? No. But if they spend MOST of their time in a yard sized enclosure, but are allowed out to range a few times a week when there are no hawks circling overhead, I think that is a good balance. A balance between protecting your investment and creating meat that is not overly athletic. Some days inside, some days outside.

We do many things that are borderline unethical to produce food. I think the agony of separating calves from their mothers in the dairy industry is unforgivable abuse. They cry. Their natural drive is to be near that warm mother, nursing. THe cow bellows. Maternal instincts have kept all the species alive, and the pain, evne to cows, of having that ripped away is huge. But if it makes money, we do it.

I feel that a middle ground can be acheived. But for me, no conversation about the ethics of raising meat is complete until you add, in the same breath, a conversation about the ethics of good and bad slaughter. You can be as ehtical as you wish during the life of the animal, and fall on your face miserably if you botch slauhghter.

Good topic. Look forward to reading.

Uno I realy like your ethics and
agree. Especially taking young
calfs away or lambs or goats.

Has anyone heard of letting the
butched birds sit in the fridge for
a day or two before freezing?

Being a dairy farmer I will have to disagree with you about separating calves from the cows. I don't know where the calves crying and the cows bellowing comes from but it must be from one of those horror movies but I don't see it around here. The only time we used to see it when we had a few beef cows. When you do wean the calf from the cow they certainly make a lot of noise. Our calves are taken away from the cows as soon as they are licked clean. You have to separate before they bond. I don't see any difference in hand raising calves to incubating and hand raising chicks.

I have often suggested to people to confine their roosters to a chicken yard away from hens when possible. It is something I do and I have no ethical issues with this. They have plenty of space to move around, they have plenty of food and water and have a good life until their time comes to be butchered. Does it make a whole lot of difference in the meat, possibly and possibly not, we have just learned the proper way to cook a rooster as opposed to the meat birds. We enjoy them in a different style meal than our meat birds.

It is almost like asking if it is humane to raise children in the city as opposed to raising them in the country? There are always pros and cons to both, but either one being inhumane I dont think so.

There are many debates about the genetic altering that goes on in broilers, but it is not just in them, look at the meat turkeys, look at the Piedmontese Cattle, these are all bred to meet specific needs, more meat in the areas we enjoy. Is it wrong to breed animals to these extremes?

I am one that raises Broilers for meat, I enjoy them as a roasting chicken, and until I can find a heritage bird that finishes out as nicely I will not be changing. (Although I am seriously going to raise some Chantecler's this year because we butchered 2 last year and they were amazing).

I don't grow my own meat birds as I just don't have the time. I do trade grain and incubator "rental" for virtually all my meat now.....anyway....

The lady I get my birds from has a nice middle ground, I believe. These are CGs, but are pasture raised all summer. She rarely has one flip and I have never seen any leg problems there either. She grows some huge birds. After growing them up all summer, she confines them for two weeks and feeds them milk and mash. It is not horrible confinement by any stretch, and I think the low light plays a factor as well. The birds are beautiful, tender, and ethically slaughtered. I like to go on butcher day and help. If I want gizzards and livers I have to collect my own as they go to the dogs generally.

I don't see any ethical issue to this. The birds are healthy, happy, and delicious!

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I wonder is a small mobile tractor would give you the best of both worlds. They get the sun, the earth and the bugs, but there would be minimal flapping, flying and running. Move it often and you have security and mental stimulation combined with less muscle development.

On the other hand, we do tend to anthropomorphize animals and judge what is best for them based on what we want. Who knows what goes on in the mind of a chicken? Just because we like our freedom doesn't mean that a chicken raised in a confined space is unhappy or the quality of his very short life is compromised.

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GUbi, I knew I would step on someone's toes with my comment. SOrry about that. It is likey that on this issue, we will not see eye to eye.

I maintain however, that an animal that was developed in its mother's womb (calf) as opposed to in a completely separate egg (chicken) and depends on its mother's body to provide the food that sustains it (calf) as opposed to seeking its food off the ground (chicken) the differences between the psychological needs of these two animals is worlds apart.

I know many dairy farmers and they are good people. But do I think the whole industry needs to be remade? Yes. I try to separate the person from the practices of the industry. But I also know the desperate stupidity and might I say greed of the food eating public. Do I have hope at this point that things will improve for the millions of calves this industry produces? No. It is, for me, a huge ethical and moral dilemma. BUt please do not feel this is a personal reflection on you although I know it will be difficult to feel any other way. You didn' invent dairy farming...this isn't on your head.

And just to play Devil's Advocate here, because I think you KNOW where I stand, I think if you asked any veal or mush chicken producer if they were farming ethically, they'd say Hell Yes! And that's just here in n. America. If you went to other countries and visited the market where the crates upon crates of crowded dogs are kept until auction, those people would say yes too.

So "ethical" is a very broad term and needs to be defined for this discussion, and then agreed-upon by everyone discussing it. Otherwise we could all be talking about something different. Happily, I think we all fall within a fairly close cluster on the scale - that's why we're all here on this forum. But we still represent quite a variety, as has already been shown. I already disagree with some of your practices! So I'm keeping my mouth shut because I'm interested to see where this goes and I truly believe that (within the 'cluster' that we inhabit) we all farm ethically, as per my own personal definition.

Great topic.

I think sometimes you have to find what works for YOU. For me, I have a bachelor pen. I like it for a number of reasons. I don't like the taste a working rooster has, I am happy to use him as stock and such, but not for roasting. Just a personal preference. I also like the girls to have a break from the boys. They don't leave the bachelor pen until they go into breeding pens.

My bachelor pen has the same space per bird I expect for the hens. They can live life how they like. Cockerels I am growing out usually only get to freerange once a week. Sometimes twice but usually once. As they get closer to processing time I don't freerange any more and I up the corn in their feed. I personally like the taste of a corn fed bird. So there you go, I think many will do it different than I do, but this is what works for me.

As for weaning calves, we fence wean in the fall. The calves are confined in pens and put on feed. The moms can come back and forth to the fence to visit with the calves if they are so inclined. Most of the old, experienced cows are glad to be rid of the calves by the fall. There is noise from the calves for about 2 days and then it is done.

Oh, I ment to say I agree whole heartedly with Tara, let that meat rest. I try to do 3 days before I freeze. I have also been told you can freeze it right away as long as you rest it after it thaws, but I have never tried that personally.

Schipperkesue wrote:I wonder is a small mobile tractor would give you the best of both worlds. They get the sun, the earth and the bugs, but there would be minimal flapping, flying and running. Move it often and you have security and mental stimulation combined with less muscle development.

On the other hand, we do tend to anthropomorphize animals and judge what is best for them based on what we want. Who knows what goes on in the mind of a chicken? Just because we like our freedom doesn't mean that a chicken raised in a confined space is unhappy or the quality of his very short life is compromised.

This will be "my" model.

I have to chuckle over the divergent views we can all have on one topic!

Aging meat? When pigs fly out my.....

Beef, yes. But you can age bad beef all you want and bad beef is bad beef. But chicken? Holy crackers! I am like the freezer nazi. Get that thing in the freezer! Pronto! I don't want any bad germies setting up colonies in my chickens. So freeze their little germ hides. I won't even keep a cooked chicken in my fridge more than 3 days, but a raw one, holy Dinah, heart failure!

I think some of this 'back in the day' hanging of poultry came from the fact that people didn't know as much as they do now. They didn't have the means to feed birds like they do now. Back then poultry were practically barnyard scavengers making their living out of what they could pick our of horse and cow manure. Farming was a different endeavour than it is now. If you have to mutilate, mangulate, antiquate and marinate your bird in its own juices for 5 days, you have done something wrong in raising it! I simply feel if I can't kill it, freeze it, thaw it, cook it and have it be edible, I have messed up big time.

Also, we should note that selective breeding for certain traits is NOT genetic modifying. If you splice monkey DNA into chicken DNA, that is genetic modifying. But crossing one bird with another to get a certain result is selective breeding and happens all the time in the name of 'improving' the breed.

So if you are a worry wart over contaminated meat and don't have the patinece or grit for 'aging', raise your hand as I will join your team. Raw meat freaks me out...freeze it or cook it but don't have it hanging around.

coopslave wrote:I have also been told you can freeze it right away as long as you rest it after it thaws, but I have never tried that personally.

My birds are provincially done so I can sell them. They are frozen right away. I try to always remember to tell people to let it sit in the fridge a few days before you eat it. I do three (after thaw) in the fridge. It isnt as good as resting fresh, but it is so much better then cooking right away.

I think someone said the ethic's of keeping animals is an individual view. I have to agree.

I do not run a commercial dairy, but hubby works at one and we are there every other week or so cause we are friends with them. I "understand" to a point why they do what they do. Having said that, I dont prefer it. I do my Jersey's as a milk share. Milked in the morning and calf stays on them until weaning. I do it not just for the personal ethics, but because I have the space and ability to do it. I also find it is less work for me to not have to raise the calf (of which I did do prior to trying this) and I found less health issues. Mine are also kept outside year round. I have nothing against dairy farmers at all. They make their living off these animals and do try o keep them in the best health they can, otherwise they have no income. I just choose to do it differently, in my opinion better, but in my friends opinion I am nuts.

Beef cows raise their own on pastures. Period.

All my birds range. The ones that are going for butcher are separated about 3 weeks before they are sent off into a smaller run. They are given the normal grain, but also milk. As much as they want.

I think my practices are ethical as they get the best I can provide and they have their needs met.

Lots of attention to how the bird is raised. Wish I was half as organized as some of you people.

I just have two observations.

1. What is the expectation? When we started raising our own, I was surprised at how much resistance there is in a well developed muscle. It's not tough or chewy, but it has density. By comparison I found the store bought birds to be spongy. So there is a difference there.

2. How is it being cooked. I've raised lots of birds and never had a tough one. Old chickens go into soup. Anything else gets braised (Not roasted), cooked while covered with liquid in the pan. Hard to be tough when the bird almost falls apart as you take it from the pan. Delish.

If you want a tender bird, and it is not a frankenstein character age it. We do it with pork, beef, lamb and most other meat. Not only does it help tenderize the meat but it also adds to the flavour. If you look at any painting of a pre-industrial kitchen, you will see the poultry and game hanging in the back, fully feathered and guts in. They did not have the frankenbirds then and if they wanted something unlike rubber they aged it, and it is still done by most in the "old world". I wont go as far to leave the guts in but I will by all means be aging my older birds in the future. As far as bacteria and germs, butcher your birds in a clean manner so there is as little present as possible, and I am healthy and my immune system needs exercise. Also, it is not like we eat poultry raw or even rare for that manner so most pathogens should be destroyed.

As far as pulling calves and other babies goes, I have dairy goats. The babies stay with mom for three days so they get their colostrum. After that we pull them. Moms protest for about five minutes but once they are on the milkstand or have their heads in a feeder they really couldn't care less. The little guys, if pulled at or before three days are over it pretty quick too. They have their siblings, a warm lamp to sleep under and a a supply of their mothers milk. After the first feeding there is no looking back. If I was going for no "emotional" (I use that term in the loosest sense) trauma I would pull as soon as they are dry and bottle feed off the bat, but from experience the offspring do better if left on initially so they get the proper antibodies and the frequent feeding that is needed to give them a good start.

I have a need to pen my birds usually. Last summer we were able to free range our meat birds, but my hens are penned. My hens, have a building which they go in and out if with an outdoor run that is 25x 50' for 15-20 hens. They were also let loose in the yard when I could watch over them.

As for taking calves from their mothers, if you want milk you have to remove the calf as momma a usually will not let milk go if they are feeding babies, and the babies will take most of the milk. When the babies are taken they are kept warm and friendly with the other babies.

Fowler wrote:Lots of attention to how the bird is raised. Wish I was half as organized as some of you people.

I just have two observations.

1. What is the expectation? When we started raising our own, I was surprised at how much resistance there is in a well developed muscle. It's not tough or chewy, but it has density. By comparison I found the store bought birds to be spongy. So there is a difference there.

2. How is it being cooked. I've raised lots of birds and never had a tough one. Old chickens go into soup. Anything else gets braised (Not roasted), cooked while covered with liquid in the pan. Hard to be tough when the bird almost falls apart as you take it from the pan. Delish.

. Good post, Also very important and need to add; how was it killed and processed is a big one. The meat needs adequate time to "starve" and off course everything can be ccoked to tenderness, you just need to know how. There is more to this than just the freerun issue, which that one is not a real issue or at least should not be. Me thinking there are other reasons for tough meat.

I think the time you 'hold' the meat has something with the stages of rigour. If you don't let it go through the complete cycle the meat is tough.

Found this and thought it was interesting. Not something I knew about. I always thought that rigor in chickens started about an hour after slaughter and took up to 48 hours to clear. Not sure how accurate my thoughts are though.....

If an animal carcass is cooled too rapidly (below 50° F, 10° C) before the onset of the rigor (within 10 hours), the muscles may contract which results in tough meat when cooked. This is known as “cold shortening.” To prevent this the carcass is kept at room temperature for some hours to accelerate rigor and then aged at between 30-41° F, (-1 - 5° C).

Such good points here everyone. From personal experience I can say that allowing the bird to rest (even 1 day) before freezing makes a BIG difference in the finished product. Having the chickens flash frozen at the meat processing facility is necessary if selling the meat. But for my own use I take them home fresh and let them rest overnight in coolers, well packed with ice. Late afternoon the next day I freeze them.
I also make sure to take the bird out of the freezer a day ahead of when I plan to cook it. Allowing them to thaw in the fridge thoroughly before cooking is helpful too.
There is nothing quick about preparing or cooking heritage chicken. But slow food is so worth the time.

I'm afraid we've again strayed from the original topic Country Thyme introduced here and back to preparing/cooking chicken for best results. But as you probably know by now I get frustrated reading about how unpalatable heritage roosters are - that they are only fit for the canner or maybe soup after all day in the crock pot. Sometimes I feel like a broken record, but just can't help myself!

As far as the real topic of confining roosters for more tender meat. Well, I think a week or 2 to finish them in a smaller area would not be considered cruel. Many people also choose to keep their breeder roosters in individual pens in order to control fighting and protect the hens from too much breeding. I think animals are quite able to adapt to different situations, and as long as they don't feel crowded or stressed it is probably not a terrible way to spend their last days. Anyone who raises chickens can tell if their birds are unhappy or stressed. I've had to confine groups for one reason or another in small areas. As long as they have food, clean water, a place to roost and room to scratch around a bit, they really don't seem to mind.

Many excellent replies everywhere. I don't suspect that I think what most everyone here is doing is unethical, I more posed it as a thought. I find that if I am not asking myself every now and again if I am doing the right thing, I probably am not. It's a bit of self regulation.

Uno is absolutely right in saying that transport and slaughter are a necessary part of the puzzle here. We sometimes take our ducks to be slaughtered at an inspected facility. It's north of Vermillion and I have to be there by 8am, which means crating birds the evening before, usually packing them tighter than I should because I always feel like I should be justifying the cost of gas, and driving 4 hours to get there. I personally know that I am negatively impacting the welfare of my birds, because I know that they would be under less stress than if I did it on my own farm. But the law makes that hard to do.

I do not think that the tangent into the culinary side of tough meat was beside the question I was asking. (I do agree with you Kathy, part of the reason I posted this is because I was frustrated yet again at somebody whining about their chicken being tough "and oh what a waste of time" yada yada) I was hoping to get people thinking about the trade offs we make between an animals welfare and getting a product we desire. Everyone thinking about how they can improve the culinary experience in the fridge and kitchen is making a choice to do that instead of trying to change the genetics or life of the animal itself.

I think what is best does not always mesh with what is necessary for us to do. Do I think it is best for a flock of hens to always have at least some roosters present? Yes. Do I think it is best for a calf or kid to be raised by the mother with access to its milk? Yes. I even think it is best for bucks and rams and bulls to keep their horns. But the best situation does not always match with what I need from my animals, so I will not always do what is best (horns wounds hurt and I prefer my poultry pure-bred), but I will always try to come as close as is reasonably feasible for me.

Personally, I think it's important as well to think both about the individual and the species I am raising. This is why I mentioned broilers. I fully understand why most people use hybrids to farm with. They yield really really high. And most people in my experience are either unable or unwilling to value their product as anything other than market value. It's backwards but it is what it is. And at risk of sounding too much like the anarchists I love to hate, in these cases the almighty dollar always wins out over the ethical choices we want to make. Somebody posted above that conventional producers would say that they are doing the right thing, but in my experience this is not always true. I have spoken to some conventional farmers who completely agree with me that what they are doing is either unethical or unsustainable. I blew my mind, but the justification is that they think they'll lose the farm if they do it any other way. Translation: the market tells them wheat is worth $200 per tonnes and eggs are worth $2.50 per dozen, so they do whatever they have to to keep their costs below these numbers.

Back to the welfare of the species, since the question of genetics was raised by a couple of posters. In the years since I read Michael Pollan's Botany of Desire, I have tried to consider whether what I'm doing is for the benefit of the species. Many argue that making domestic species so reliant on us for survival is unethical on its own, so I have to hope that it's working out as a symbiosis of sorts. But when I consider terminal hybrids, I have to wonder whether we're going in a direction even we cannot pull the species in our care back from. Carol Depp in Storeys Guide to Chickens mentions how the poultry industry ruined broilers so bad they had to get some Plymouth Rocks from fanciers to bring them back. On our farm we have gone straight to the opposite extreme, where we now only work with pure-bred stock and open-pollinated crops. Again, I don't think that anyone raising Cornish Giants, industrial leghorns or F1 crops is doing a bad thing, we just choose not to contribute to those industries.

I've probably rambled on and bored or outraged you all! Excellent discussion, thank you.