value, animals, ethics

I have noticed a few philosophies when it comes to keeping animals, but there is one in particular that I find offensive and feel there is no excuse in the world for it.

Someone said, (it might have been Arctic), that sometimes peope fall on hard times and the care of their animals suffer. While I agree that hard times can sometimes come flying out of the sky and whap someone on the head, most of the time that is NOT how it happens. Most of the time, with our eyes wide open, we walk right into our hard times, see the storm coming a mile away but take no steps to do a darn thing about it. In other words, most people who claim 'hard times' as an excuse for animal neglect/abuse are full of crap. There was no one catastrophic event that hurled them, unsuspecting, into chaos. Instead, they took no steps to prevent the situation they find themselves and their animals in. I am saying the number one cause of animal abuse/neglect is NOT finances, but human nature and the lies we tell ourselves and the slippery juggling and justification we do to let ourselves off the hook for the atrocities we commit.

At the risk of offending everyone, I am going to just blurt this out. If you are not financially stable, you have ZERO business owning animals. A living creature's needs are its needs and they do not come and go depending on our financial picture. A hungry horse (goat, chicken, cow, pig) is hungry no matter how much money we have. IT is sick when it is sick, whether we have money or not. And if you have not prepared for this eventaulity in your life, then you should probably not wander out into public since many bad things happen to people who don't think and plan.

When I hear this..."I didn't call the vet for my horse (cow, chicken, goat, guinea pig)because the market is down right now and the animal is only worth $500 bucks, so it's not worth it to get the vet out"..... I want to put on my a$$ kicking boots and lay some steel toes to the place this person keeps their head. I DO NOT CARE how broke you might be or what the market value of that animal is. Long before you got that broke you should have been unloading your animals. Being that broke does not creep up on any of us and even if it does, your responsibility to do right by your animals does NOT disappear because your money has! But if you saw your financial situation coming a mile off and sat there, happy to let the care of your animals be the first thing that hits the dirt, well...(muttering words that cannot be typed).

I am not without compassion. Is your breeding goat, who used to be worth $2000, now only worth $40 due to poor goat futures? So once upon a time his twisted gut was worth treating, but now his twisted gut will be ignored due to his reduced value? Please, tell me, does a worthless animal feel pain or hunger less than a pricey animal? Do worthless animals need less food and shelter than pricey animals? Did you get your ethics at the discount table at the local flea market? Everyone of us has the RESPONSIBILITY to keep our animals and care for them when they need it, regardless of their market value or our money situation and if you have reached the point where your animals are too valuless to care for SHOOT THEM!

(having seizure, foaming at mouth ) Nothing makes me madder than people who stand beside their hazardous, broken down fencing, looking in on bone thin, worm riddled, lousy, thirsty, untrimmed animals and saying in a gooey voice, "I could never get rid of them, they are my life, I love them, I would do anything for them." You LOVE them? In your dreams, delusional person! What you love is the sound of your own voice blabbing garbage into your own ear. What you love is not having to do hard, painful, objectionable things on behalf of your animals. What you have is not love but a deep spiritual or mental illness. Take a friggin pill! But release your animals from the hell you inflict on them and either get rid of them or end their lives. But suffering is NOT love, it is NEVER okay due to market value or whether or not you have enough money to buy a pack of smokes! (call 911, I'm having a heart attack!)

Even squirrels know to put away nuts for the hard months ahead, yet most humans haven't the sense god gave a tree rat. No one is excused from animal care, and that includes veterinary care, due to market value or immediate financial situation. And if either of these reasons is how you let yourself off the hook, do your animals the kindness of a bullet. At least I can respect that. It is crucial, critical and essential that you have money set aside for the emergency care of your animals and you USE that money as needed no matter what the animal is worth. Animals hurt and suffer and if you can't fix it, for whatever reason, end it. (I gotta go lay down now)

I absolutely couldn't agree with you more, I hear the anger in your words and I share it. Well said.

Uno u are my hero!!!!
Nothing pisses me off more then pitty seekers, when their animal dies without them doing nothing for the creature as in calling a vet because the animals retail value is less the the visit,if so man up and put a bullet in the poor thing.

agreed

(having seizure, foaming at mouth ) Nothing makes me madder than people who stand beside their hazardous, broken down fencing, looking in on bone thin, worm riddled, lousy, thirsty, untrimmed animals and saying in a gooey voice, "I could never get rid of them, they are my life, I love them, I would do anything for them." You LOVE them? In your dreams, delusional person! What you love is the sound of your own voice blabbing garbage into your own ear. What you love is not having to do hard, painful, objectionable things on behalf of your animals. What you have is not love but a deep spiritual or mental illness. Take a friggin pill! But release your animals from the hell you inflict on them and either get rid of them or end their lives. But suffering is NOT love, it is NEVER okay due to market value or whether or not you have enough money to buy a pack of smokes! (call 911, I'm having a heart attack!)

I very much agree with this part. I have worked with the SPCA, and various rescue organizations and I know first had the people like that. Its SICK.. makes me hate humanity..


Now, I myself am not finacially stable. But I take care of my animals first and utmost. They get what they need, and whatever 'pleasures' I want go ont he back burner. I get more enjoyment out of seeing hapy fat hens running around than I would out of some new peice of clothing or some expensive dinner. Farmer mentality I geuss. Oh and I dont think any true farmer is finacially stable LOL Your income depends on the weather.. which is FAR from stable. But we (most of us) make it work for the livestock because the livestock is the backbone of most farms.

I also agree with Uno.

I get calls all the time, we got a dog and now we cant keep it because of (Insert lame excuse) or worse yet, " we thought we would like to do some dog sledding so we got some dogs and did a few breedings but we dont mush any more. Can you take all 27 dogs?"

GRRRRRRRRRR!

I dont do a lot of rescues any more, Im worn out and tired of taking care of other people's problems for them, especially for breeders who crank out pups and dont take back dogs they are sent out (regardless of reason or age they are being sent back). But when it comes to sled dog rescue, for real mushers Im there.

I differentiate between Hard Rescue (actual abuse, this is not as common as people think) or soft rescue (something happened to a cared for animal ) or a rehome (for real or lame reasons).

Emergency rescues I have been involved in over the past year or two include helping rehome, transport, 36 malamutes and siberians after thier owners, friends of mine, were killed by joyriding teens. Their kids, adults, were in shock and lived in the city and unprepared to deal with the dogs.

I had two elderly dogs stay with me for 3 months while thier owner was in hospital. Eventually I rehomed them after the owner was put into a nursing home.

I have a husky who is living with me right now because the house thw owner was renting was sold and the new owners evicted the renters, they had been there for 3 years! Once he finds a place that they can have the dog he will be going back to them (This has happened a few times sadly).

There are plenty of other legit things that have suddenly come up, but usually that involves a death, acident, injury ot some other catastropic event. I would include loosing ones home to forclosure when both parents are laid off as a catestropic event.

On the other hand, YES, people need to take responsibility for thier animals and abandoning them is most certainly NOT an option.

Thank you Ma'am!!!!!!!
You truly have a knack for expressing things the correct way! I was just talking about this same sort of topic, and I too wanted to get it off my chest. However, I just don't quite have the way with words that you do! I would end up saying it some how that would piss everyone off rather than only the type of low lives who you mention.
The thing about this sort of stuff that really gets me, is not so much of how the people who come on to a public forum and cry about loosing an animal due to improper husbandry or blatant neglect, but how there are so many other people waiting on the fence like a bunch of magpies to give that looser a pat on the bum and say "that's OK, you did all you could.". NO YOU MORON, THEY DIDN'T DO $HIT FOR THAT ANIMAL, THAT'S WHY IT FROZE IT'S... or why IT'S IN THE SITUATION IT IS!!!!
Sometimes I just want to reach through the computer and give them a b!tch slap and tell them to wake up!

Oh my god
Thank you !
I have controlled myself for days online and im still puking and so flipping mad that I could just spit on someone!
The pats on the back almost have me as mad.
Poor friends have heard me rant and rave for days!

Uno you have such a way with words.
Thank you

I totally agree and well put...

There are times that my chickens eat better than I do, no joke. I mean neither one of us starves, but If I am running low on food and feed at the same time, I will get feed first as there are WAY more of them to care for and only one of me. I always worry about them first as I know that I can provide for myself, but I am also the Sole provider to a bunch of Cluckers.

The way I see it and some people think I am weird... Like I care is to me they are pretty much pets and a few are like children in a way to me.
I put them first most of the time.

I'll be honest last year I had a few younger birds get frozen toes, this was a result of poor management. These chicks were young and were piling in the corner, not roosting. Therefore frozen feet. I made the choice to put them down. I felt bad as this was directly my doing. I hatched out chicks way to late and put them in inadequate housing.
I learnt, at the time I had no clue, and for that I can't make an excuse, I learnt and this year I am not finding myself in that situation.

This year I am going into winter way more prepared and experienced than last year, so far so good i have had zero issues except for a fox attack, lost 4 hen, my bad I didn't close the pop door and the bugger found a weak spot in the perimeter fence. His one and only meal as since the attack his paw prints are only on the outside of my area.

I am trying to be headstrong and aware of the situation I am putting my birds through, I don't want them to suffer, or be unhappy. Once the cold snap hits, the coops will be heated for those that need it, sure it will cost me money but it t means that my chickens have a decent quality of life.

There is no excuse to let an animal suffer, especially if you are the caretaker.

Jonny A

I deal with these kind od people every day. The animals I have rescued have endured untold hardships and even torture at the hands of people who claim to love them. I don't have a talent with words and do not express myself very well . I just spend my time trying to repair broken bodies and souls and make the animals now living at Free to be Me as comfortable and happy as I can for there remaining time on this earth. lou

Amen to that!

Rescuing and fostering animals exposes you to a great deal of sheer human stupidity and neglect that makes you just want to boot$#@! someone right into next week.

i agree with you all

Johnny Anvil, all of us, when starting out in animals, have made mistakes. Mistakes of ignorance. I have done it with our horses, much to my horror and self disgust. The mistakes of a caring but uninformed person are NOT the same as the brutal neglect of an indifferent person.

When you found your mistake you noted it, because you are watcing for the health and welfare of your flock, and you took action (culling) rather than allow suffering. You went forward having learned something and ensured that it doesn't happen again. Wouldn't the lives of millions of animals be better if they were owned by people like you?

I KNOW I don't know my way around a horse. Knowing this we have never skimped on seeking input from vet, trainers, breeders and even me coming to all of you with my stories of my own inadequacies and stupidity as a horse owner.

Rich or poor, in sickness and health we are obligated to be the advocates for those who have no voice, no choice and no control over their own destiny. If we botch this for whatever reason, we have failed.

I may not be liked for my comments. It is not in offense or defense of anyone. It is an observation and the simple trueth. One of the worst "excuses" for animal neglect is an adult saying "that (input animal here) is my sons/daughters, not mine". If that son/daughter is under the age of 18 and does not have a job, YOU as the parent are responsible for that animal. One of my daughters has a cow. She picked it out as a calf, helped bottle fed it, helps brush it, etc. That cow, is MY responsability, even though it is her animal, because I am the adult. As an adult, you are responsible for every aspect of that animals life, not the child. It should NOT be the childs (until the age of 18) responability to make the hard choices or decisions concerning that animal. I dont care if it is a horse, cow, cat, dog, or a freakin spider , it is the responsability of the adult to have the vet come out or shoot the animal, or squash it, etc. When my filly went down the vet didnt want to come out. She said from the discription she knew exactly what was wrong and had me meet her at the office for meds. Said it was common with foals in her situation. I did that and started the meds right away. Vet calls at 8 the next morning to check on her. If there was no improvement was going to have me bring her in that day. Sometimes, the way things are worded in a hurried post, it may not be known by those of us reading it the whole situation. Was it that the vet didnt think it neccesary to come out or that the person responsable didnt want the vet out or worst yet, that they didnt even contact a vet? However, there is never an excuse for not calling a vet unless you are a vet!

pfarms wrote:I may not be liked for my comments. It is not in offense or defense of anyone. It is an observation and the simple trueth. One of the worst "excuses" for animal neglect is an adult saying "that (input animal here) is my sons/daughters, not mine". If that son/daughter is under the age of 18 and does not have a job, YOU as the parent are responsible for that animal. One of my daughters has a cow. She picked it out as a calf, helped bottle fed it, helps brush it, etc. That cow, is MY responsability, even though it is her animal, because I am the adult. As an adult, you are responsible for every aspect of that animals life, not the child. It should NOT be the childs (until the age of 18) responability to make the hard choices or decisions concerning that animal. I dont care if it is a horse, cow, cat, dog, or a freakin spider , it is the responsability of the adult to have the vet come out or shoot the animal, or squash it, etc. When my filly went down the vet didnt want to come out. She said from the discription she knew exactly what was wrong and had me meet her at the office for meds. Said it was common with foals in her situation. I did that and started the meds right away. Vet calls at 8 the next morning to check on her. If there was no improvement was going to have me bring her in that Sometimes, the way things are worded in a hurried post, it may not be known by those of us reading it the whole situation. Was it that the vet didnt think it neccesary to come out or that the person responsable didnt want the vet out or worst yet, that they didnt even contact a vet? However, there is never an excuse for not calling a vet unless you are a vet!

I agree with u as it is the parents that are responsible for what is on their property.Parents that try to pass the guilt to their kids are a piss poor excuse for parents

Wow, I feel like I am missing something?

I do not advocate for animal abuse of any kind. Sometimes there is a simple fix, sometimes if the animal is not a pet, the kindest thing is to put it down and end it's suffering. I work in a vet clinic and see all sorts of "abuse" - neglect, accidents, people who don't seek help sooner because they don't know any better, people who don't seek help because they just don't care. What I really have disdain for is puppy mills that don't give two hoots about their breeding animals health, well being or future, and will sell the puppies to anyone who comes along with the asking price.


And, on another note, what exactly constitutes financially stable? I am a student. Does that mean that I shouldn't have animals? I don't have a set paycheck every month. Heck, sometimes I barely make enough money to pay my gas to get to school. But, I have a wonderful support system. I am able to manage a dog with heart failure, a huge flock of chickens, two healthy dogs and two healthy cats. Three years ago my husband and I lived in our own house, and both worked full time. With the economic situation as it is in BC our living situation has now completely changed, there is no way I or anyone else could have predicted that. It's easy to sit back and say "if you can't afford it don't have it" but what is reasonable within that? I don't have a couple grand to throw at the vet if my dog got hit by a car or got torsion, but you bet your boots my dog wouldn't suffer and would get vet treatment.

I completely value animals, and have strong ethics about their well being. But I don't think animals should be for the elite who can afford a new outfit for Fifi each month either.


Just some things to consider.

Briarwood, elite owners are often the worst! Just read up on how some famous racehorses have ended their lives. You want a chronical of disinterested ingratitude? Wealthy people who get that way by using up the lives of animals are often NOT there mucking and grooming and worrying over an animal that's 'off'. Elite owners, those who never get their hands dirty are often (not always!) an animal's worst nightmare.

As DSSR pointed out, one can be financially precarious and still be a dedicated owner. I made my point poorly. YOu don't have to be wealthy to know when enough is enough and you have to make a move, no matter how much it's going to cost. You either fix it or end it but you do something.

This post is about people who are more concerned with the money, than the animal. Many of us could not afford the $8000- $13,000 colic surgery for our horse. The decision to put the horse down would be sad, but would at least be humane. It's the people who wouldn't consider the surgery, wouldn't consider the injection and don't get out there with a gun to end the pain, that are giving me blood pressure problems.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] with briawood

i go under the terms of dont judge anyone until you have been in their shoes... yes agreed with briarwood things change all the time, you can lose your husband/ job /get into a accident/ect all in one day and your life is turned around.... and owning a boarding kennel........ abuse to me is when we get owners that say their dog is a indoor dog and its home alone for 12 hrs a day inside by itself 6 days a week but they walk it when they get home! ....thats abuse in my eyes, but it has a fancy fluffy new sweater , matching collar.... ...my 2 cents

TripleJ, wow, you put me in a bad postition! And you bring up yet another topic that makes me bang my head on things. I bang my head a lot. I have issues with "don't judge".

In my opinion, darn right we judge! We ARE judged by our actions, it's what we do that determines who we are. It is very sweet and kind to say 'don't judge', but then we would be a lawless society where every type of abuse and atrocity was hunky dorry, great and wonderful, freely allowed since we wouldn't want to offend anyone's feelings by judging their actions. Many of us are uncomfortable and conflicted about passing judgement on a person, yet in many, many cases it is absolutely required! We teach our kids to practice judgement for their own safety! Does that person appear to be drunk, then judging by their actions DO NOT RIDE HOME WITH THEM! We make judgements every day of our lives and we have to to remain alive.

I know you didn't mean that you were all for crimes never being punished. I understand what you are saying and the premise of it is very politically correct, but in my opinion, essentially flawed. As a society we have determined our boundaries for proper animal treatment and DO judge those who fall short. Otherwise you could hang your horse from a tractor and goodness knows, there would be no consequences. In my opinion, there aren't enough consequences!

We all know that emergencies happen. That is not to be blamed on anyone. No one is judged for losing a dog in a house fire. But you will be judged, and should be judged, for allowing one to starve to death while tied to an old truck. MOST cases of animal neglect are NOT emergency related. Stating that we should 'not judge' muddies the waters. It excuses those for whom there is no excuse. I have great sympathy for those who lose their animals to catastrophic life events beyond their control. BUt what you CAN control and decide NOT to control, well, it is what it is and no one stops any of us from doing the right thing. Except ourselves.

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uno wrote:Johnny Anvil, all of us, when starting out in animals, have made mistakes. Mistakes of ignorance. I have done it with our horses, much to my horror and self disgust. The mistakes of a caring but uninformed person are NOT the same as the brutal neglect of an indifferent person.

When you found your mistake you noted it, because you are watcing for the health and welfare of your flock, and you took action (culling) rather than allow suffering. You went forward having learned something and ensured that it doesn't happen again. Wouldn't the lives of millions of animals be better if they were owned by people like you?

I KNOW I don't know my way around a horse. Knowing this we have never skimped on seeking input from vet, trainers, breeders and even me coming to all of you with my stories of my own inadequacies and stupidity as a horse owner.

Rich or poor, in sickness and health we are obligated to be the advocates for those who have no voice, no choice and no control over their own destiny. If we botch this for whatever reason, we have failed.

I appreciate the fact that you recognize that I am sincere about how I care for my pets. I at first thought I was a horrible person. But it's retorts like yours above that reassure me that I am on the right path.
Being head strong I am determined to make sure that I can continue to improve, not just with my own, but to offer assistance when I can to other pet and livestock owners who might need it.

Small education and effort goes a long way.

Another consideration is that it is often not malicious, just stupidity. Many humans are experts at kidding themselves. They cut one corner and then another and pretty soon they are the (not so proud) owner of a mistreated animal looking baffled when the SPCA shows up.

Finances all depends on where you money goes. I've had relatives look at me like I have three heads for spending money on my birds. Then these same people thinking nothing of dropping hundreds on a set of golf clubs or skis.

Do any of you feel uncomfortable hatching and selling chickens to people you don't know, or some people you DO know? When I first started raising a few purebreeds three years ago, I was excited to be able to hatch a few and sell to my neighbors or others. Then I've heard about some bad situations that some of those chicks landed in - I felt absolutely SICK. There are certain people now who I WILL NOT sell to but then I will sell some chicks to someone who I know will take good care of them, only to find out later that they've resold them into a "not so good" situation. ( I constantly tell people what I think of buying and selling chickens like they were a piece of yardsale stuff- they are LIVING creatures and should be treated as such) There is a little circle of people around here who trade and sell constantly. I sold one roo to a man one evening whom I thought really wanted him - a beautiful buff rock - then the NEXT MORNING heard that he didn't like it because its comb wasn't big enough. He saw the comb when he bought it!!!!!!!!!!! I offered to buy it back but he sold it to someone else instead.

ARGGHHHH! Am I the only one who has these kind of problems???? Maybe its just a certain group of people around here - but then I'm afraid when I sell to strangers - how are my birds being treated? Then, on the other hand, I've sold some to people who absolutely LOVE their birds and are soooo thrilled with their birds that it makes me feel priviledged to have been able to introduce them to this new joy of their lives.

It leaves me feeling pulled in two directions - sometimes I feel like not selling any more birds to ANYONE, then I think of those others who are responsible poultry owners ...

uno..
...i put off getting my ferret put to sleep in denial/ he was old/ still eating/drinking ect...i dint have the heart to shoot him and i basicaly kept putting it off cause i thought "well he is still ok he is eating/drinking/walking ect" so i was in denial. ....well one day i picked him up and he smelled horrible he was incontinent and getting thin " i forveer had to clean his cage 2 times per day" ferrets are stinkey buggers,, ..and i realized he is losing allot of weight now.... i guess it is time....... so i took him to the vet.. it was late but i did it....i knew he was deteriorating but why didnt i take him in sooner? now am i a bad owner because i didnt run to the vet as soon as he got old? or becasuse i delayed taking him in? i had him for 11 years!! most people give ferrets up after their cute kit stage...as they are allot of work...
what i am saying is dont judge the guy down the road because his horse is thin...maybe the horse is old! old horses lose weight...and need their teeth floated..maybe this guy doesnt know it...doesnt mean he is purposley neglecting the horse...he is in either denial about its condition or he doesnt know there is such thing as horse dentists..lol. i hate animmal abuse...but lets face it it has many faces.
just my point

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