Marek's...or is it?

No, birds don't build up immunity to Marek's by exposure; they are hatched with a degree of genetic resistance somewhere on the spectrum between complete immunity to complete susceptibility, complicated by the large number of strains of the disease. Marek’s is a virus.

Coccidiosis is a protozoan, and susceptibility to cocci is load-dependent (i.e. dependent on the amount of infectious agent they are confronted with).

It's quite reasonable to think that different strains of chooks will be more susceptible to cocci, as well as to Mareks - this is probably a result of their general immune system robustness, however, rather than specific disease resistance.

No, birds don't build up immunity to Marek's by exposure; they are hatched with a degree of genetic resistance somewhere on the spectrum between complete immunity to complete susceptibility, complicated by the large number of strains of the disease. Marek’s is a virus.

Coccidiosis is a protozoan, and susceptibility to cocci is load-dependent (i.e. dependent on the amount of infectious agent they are confronted with).

It's quite reasonable to think that different strains of chooks will be more susceptible to cocci, as well as to Marek’s - this is probably a result of their general immune system robustness, however, rather than specific disease resistance.

ipf wrote:Wow, careless editing, sorry!
I mean that Cochins are an example of a breed that is more susceptible to Marek's than others. . .

Sorry, interjection here...are these statistics? I have bred many, many, many cochins and honestly, never have lost one to marek's. Perhaps after they have left our farm, but never once have I had a cochin contract the disease. Not sure where this information came from, but I totally disagree.

I have had a few contract marek's. Of those two were the breed buff orpington -- bought from a breeder, that had vaccinated them at appropriate age. They were about 14 weeks old.

Two other were youngster buff orpington that had been raised on our farm, the age of approximately 12 weeks. The typical marek's, this is typical age.

The only other instance of marek's disease that I have had was a gold laced wyandotte rooster. He was of the age of 14 months old. He contracted the disease just after we had a move from the coast to the Okanagan. He got so bad that he had to be culled. He did not have any kind of injury that I know of. Maybe, but I don't think so. I think a low immune system, especially brought on by the move and being in the whereabouts of another rooster of another breed. Stress. That lowers immune ability, we all know that.

So, to get back to your point. I do not think that cochins should be said that they are susceptible to marek's. UNLESS there are statistics that back this up. As I said before, not once have I encountered marek's in any of my cochin flock of offspring on our property. But who knows....maybe, but how knows. Have a wonderful night with days to follow, CynthiaM.

I'll try to find the original source of that info.

CynthiaM there can be lines within breeds that are more susceptible as well. In Australia the Silkies have a very hard time with it as do the Blue Orpingtons and the Barnevelder. Those are the only ones I can think of off hand.
Within 3 years I had my Barnevelders pretty clean. I lost 60% of them the first year and after 3 years I was not losing any of my breeding. After that we even moved twice and I still didn't have trouble.
My friend in Australia had a very unusual strain of it that did not include the paralysis that usually shows, but just a wasting away of the birds. They lived what appears as a normal, healthy life until you picked them up and there was just nothing to them. They just wasted away and died. Very sad and frustrating for her.

I know everyone says its just every where, live with it. I am not totally convinced it is as rampant as everyone says, but that is just a personal belief. I do believe when keeping chickens for long enough, you will be exposed to it.

Rampant....sorry, the teacher in is always looking over my shoulder!

I read that Orpingtons, Cochins and blue coloured birds were more apt to show mareks symptoms than other breeds somewhere as well.

I do find it interesting, the cull/not cull arguement. Both schools of thought are, ultimately, attempting to reach the same goal. I would say in many aspects, both have seemed to have reached said goal (or are still in the process of), which I also find interesting. Ultimately, we have to do what we feel is right on our farm for our birds.

Cocci is a gut flora thing, I read. My cure for that is to increase the amount of helpful gut flora in the system and I had great success with that. I didn't lose any broody hatched chicks to cocci, but the ones I did lose were incubated.

This thread has been very helpful.

Schipperkesue wrote:Rampant....sorry, the teacher in is always looking over my shoulder!

Thanks Sue, fixed now. I knew it wasn't right, but the frozen brain wouldn't help me!

Speaking of gut flora. . . earlier in 2012 I had read somewhere that probiotics were beneficial to newly-hatched chicks. We have free access to whey ( a great source of probiotics) from a local cheesery, and had previously found that our birds really enjoy eating it (lots of protein!); we had generally started feeding it to them when they were a couple of weeks old. On the basis of this new finding, we started feeding it right away to our day-old meat-bird (Cornish Cross) chicks.

We had the highest weight gain/day and the lowest mortality in our meat birds ever! Also, I think it really cut down on food costs.

Cheeseries generally have trouble disposing of whey, and sometimes have to pay to dispose of it, so you can often get it free.

Oh, how these topics take on a mind of their own, and I'm lovin' every minute of it, bring it!!

ipf, you are fortunate to have that cheeserie (what a name eh?) close by. Does whey freeze? Wondering that because we are heading down to the coast in February, middle, and I think I would send my Sister out on missions to different cheeseries (actually got a few good souls down there that would help me) and get whey products. I believe what you are saying about gut flora and the importance of it to newly born chicks. Yummmeee..also wondering how long whey would keep only refrigerated. I don't think we have any cheese maker plants up in this immediate area, but then, maybe. Maybe is something that I should look into.

On the other side of the coin, big tubs of natural yogurt are quite inexpensive and a big tub would go a long ways with feeding to fuzzy butt babies. Please to explain how you fed the new borns, I would be very interested.

Ya, for sure I believe too that some varieties in breeds may be more susceptible, as well as breeds too period. I have blue cochins (and black and splash), well that was kind of a dumb thing to say. I would venture on to say that my adult birds have immune built up to any kinds of marek's I may have here. Knowing full well that I do, but my birds are not affected. Now, not to say that once any bird leaves my farm that they may contract marek's of a different forum. But my birds have lived through being exposed to it (and clearly every chicken on earth probably has been), now thinking that they are probably carriers (oops, sounds awful eh? but true supposition), if you look at what carrier means. But oh well. Whatcha do? Still I will always cull anything that looks like it has developed any symptoms. Hard love, tough love, it is what it is, that hard side of me that can surface when the need comes. I pull it out deep from within the belly of my soul. Excellent discussion and love to listen. Have that great day, CynthiaM.

CynthiaM wrote:ipf, you are fortunate to have that cheeserie (what a name eh?) close by. Does whey freeze? Wondering that because we are heading down to the coast in February, middle, and I think I would send my Sister out on missions to different cheeseries (actually got a few good souls down there that would help me) and get whey products. I believe what you are saying about gut flora and the importance of it to newly born chicks. Yummmeee..also wondering how long whey would keep only refrigerated. I don't think we have any cheese maker plants up in this immediate area, but then, maybe. Maybe is something that I should look into.

On the other side of the coin, big tubs of natural yogurt are quite inexpensive and a big tub would go a long ways with feeding to fuzzy butt babies. Please to explain how you fed the new borns, I would be very interested.

Though the question was directed at ipf, I'm not trying to step on toes by answering. Whey is used as a preservative in homemade mayonnaise and cold-storing things like that. Homemade mayo will last about a week or so in the fridge, but if you ad whey it'll last for upwards of 4 months. I have kept whey in jars in the fridge for a little over 6 and it didn't go green. If you can, it's best to pull the whey from raw sources (which I'm sure many cheeseries still do raw cheese), but you can make your own whey from yogurt as well, just let it sour and separate at room temperature, or leave it in a cheese cloth dangling over a bowl and it'll separate itself. You can feed yogurt cheese (cream cheese, the leftover from the separation) back to the chicks or eat it yourself! When I was helping my chicks recover from cocci, I got a tub of plain, good quality yogurt from the store, mixed in 2 full droppers of oregano oil and either gave it to them in a separate dish or mixed it into the chick start to form a mash. I didn't much like the mash, mind you, as sometimes you get the little buggers that sit atop the feeder and I would throw out the entire batch.

I'm curious, as well, as to how IPF does it -- I'd like to expand on my technique for this.

Ah Sweetened, don't ever think you are stepping on any toes and for sure, certainly always put in your two cents about things people say. We all benefit by information that is given to us. We listen. It is a good thing, not a bad thing. Bring on any comments, always.

always think of Miss Muffet that sat on a tuffet, eating her curds and whey. Sounds horrible . Why eat the whey, guess it must be good for ya, smiling. Just sounds ichy.

Is whey what some cheese comes stored in, in the carton, like feta? It must be some kind of a preservative. I make always my own mayonnaise with my eggs. But in all honesty we eat so much Caesar salad, like every day (homemade of course) that the homemade mayonnaise would never go bad. But if I were to want to bring some to someone, I might make some whey to preserve it. Wonder how much whey would need to go into a litre of mayonnaise? Do you know? Have beautiful days, CynthiaM.

CynthiaM wrote:Ah Sweetened, don't ever think you are stepping on any toes and for sure, certainly always put in your two cents about things people say. We all benefit by information that is given to us. We listen. It is a good thing, not a bad thing. Bring on any comments, always.

always think of Miss Muffet that sat on a tuffet, eating her curds and whey. Sounds horrible . Why eat the whey, guess it must be good for ya, smiling. Just sounds ichy.

Is whey what some cheese comes stored in, in the carton, like feta? It must be some kind of a preservative. I make always my own mayonnaise with my eggs. But in all honesty we eat so much Caesar salad, like every day (homemade of course) that the homemade mayonnaise would never go bad. But if I were to want to bring some to someone, I might make some whey to preserve it. Wonder how much whey would need to go into a litre of mayonnaise? Do you know? Have beautiful days, CynthiaM.

Whey is incredibly beneficial and can help people lose weight and stuff as well as it curbs hunger, I'm told anywhey (baaaaaaahahah -- sorry). It's high in protein and is an excellent source of flora for the gut. It tastes a little sour, kind of like runny kefir, but it's the smell that gets me; I do like the tart flavor. It's a great drink when you're sick, I'm told. I add it to shakes and stuff when I have it. I think homemade Feta is stored in whey, but I'd question the supermarket concoction -- probably mostly water and salt. I can get you the ratio tonight when I get home from work, it's in one of my recipe books. I want to say 2 tablespoons, but I'll find out to be sure for you.

If you've ever had raw milk or kefir go to the separation stage, the curd on top (apparently edible, I haven't gotten the gut up to try it yet) is a form of cheese, a starter is my understanding (though I could be wrong), and the liquid below is all whey. I wouldn't recommend using it from pasteurized, but then pasteurized doesn't really separate that much either come to think about it.

Will get you that info, Miss cynthia.

I am learning all sorts of new stuff, keep it going.

Actually, it would be great if you would put all this information in another thread as well, so I can find it again. I have to admit in a few months when I want to revist it, I don't think I will remember to look in the Mareks thread! It may be interesting to others that won't be looking here either.

Moderators - Can you shift the whey items to the new Whey thread? Many thanks.

Sweetened wrote: I got a tub of plain, good quality yogurt from the store, mixed in 2 full droppers of oregano oil and either gave it to them in a separate dish or mixed it into the chick start to form a mash.

This is not a use of Oregano Oil that I've heard before but it makes great sense. And since chickens don't have a lot of tastebuds, they probably would eat it up because it smells so "green". What a good idea.

Back to Marek's. . . Cindi, I'm trying to find that ref re Cochins and Marek's; I konw I read it somewhere. I'll keep looking.
What I am finding is great documentation of the effectiveness of breeding for resistance to Marek's, and also of the existence of several strains and serotypes of the disease.

farmchiq wrote:

Sweetened wrote: I got a tub of plain, good quality yogurt from the store, mixed in 2 full droppers of oregano oil and either gave it to them in a separate dish or mixed it into the chick start to form a mash.

This is not a use of Oregano Oil that I've heard before but it makes great sense. And since chickens don't have a lot of tastebuds, they probably would eat it up because it smells so "green". What a good idea.

Well thankin' the lucky stars above the chickens have different taste buds than we do. You bad...Farmchiq. I remember about a month ago I thought I was getting a cold, sneezing, that was it. Thanks to you!!!! I popped into my oldest Daughter's house and told her of my possibly getting a cold. She had this look on her face. I knew something wicked this way comes.

She told me to try this. That vial of oregano oil that she had on her kitchen window ledge. Swearing that it tastes OK and that for surely it would stop the cold from coming. I smelled it. Thought to myself, ya right. She is a meannie and so are you. For some reason, in the cobwebs of my mind, I think you put her up to it...she dropped a couple of drops on my tongue and I almost cried like a little baby. Well, not really, gotta put on those big girl panties...sometimes. I spit it out, tried to get that burning taste out of my mouth, spit copious amounts of water into her kitchen sink and regained my composure. Big mamma, baby mamma. Sure do hope my lucky stars that anyone gives anyone any of that crap that they dilute it first Ya, and it didn't do a thing. I never got that cold full blown out. Ooops, hey, maybe it burned the cold bug out of my mouth!!

So, ya, back to marek's. ipf, thanks for taking the time to try and find out the information about the cochins and susceptibility. I would really like it if you could find that information, I for one, surely would like to read about breeds and which ones are more susceptible to this horrid nasty disease. I have read some really good, good information that a friend sent to me, and that has good knowledge in it. Read and read and read, learn and learn and learn...its all about knowledge. Have a most wonderful day, CynthiaM.

farmchiq wrote:

Sweetened wrote: I got a tub of plain, good quality yogurt from the store, mixed in 2 full droppers of oregano oil and either gave it to them in a separate dish or mixed it into the chick start to form a mash.

This is not a use of Oregano Oil that I've heard before but it makes great sense. And since chickens don't have a lot of tastebuds, they probably would eat it up because it smells so "green". What a good idea.

I thought it was odd too, until I read an article on the Go2Network about it. Some farmers are testing the merits of using oregano oil and cinnamon on their flocks trather than antibiotics. They say that as more consumers are becoming savy about antibiotics and their use in meat animals, the demand for antibiotic-free meat is on the rise.

Here is a link to the article if you want to read about it.
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toybarons wrote:

farmchiq wrote:

Sweetened wrote: I got a tub of plain, good quality yogurt from the store, mixed in 2 full droppers of oregano oil and either gave it to them in a separate dish or mixed it into the chick start to form a mash.

This is not a use of Oregano Oil that I've heard before but it makes great sense. And since chickens don't have a lot of tastebuds, they probably would eat it up because it smells so "green". What a good idea.

I thought it was odd too, until I read an article on the Go2Network about it. Some farmers are testing the merits of using oregano oil and cinnamon on their flocks trather than antibiotics. They say that as more consumers are becoming savy about antibiotics and their use in meat animals, the demand for antibiotic-free meat is on the rise.

Here is a link to the article if you want to read about it.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I'll continue this on this thread, as it applies to how I deal with Marek's flare-ups as well. It's not really accepted, or considered acceptable by many, but I believe in giving animals the treatments I would give myself in their condition. Naturopathy is something I'm not qualified in, but I do dabble in it and have successfully managed to stay alive throughout all my trial and error.

When I got into chickening, I really wanted to keep it as natural as possible, knowing being organic would be hard considering I live between 4 well-sprayed canola fields. I wanted to stay away from pharmaceutical anti-biotics as I personally stay away from them. I came down with salmonella a few years ago, was diagnosed was having a ‘stomach flu’ at the hospital and released with 6 different anti-biotic prescriptions, which were filled before we left the city and I started taking them before I got home and passed out. I got a call early in the morning the next day from the hospital. It was a doctor who was reviewing my bloodwork who went on to say I should have never been released with how badly saturated my blood was with salmonella. He asked what they had put me on and I told him the array of pills to which he replied “Stop taking them all, if you made it through the night, you’ll live, and they’re not going to help you.” He went on to discuss how salmonella is resistant to nearly all commercial anti-biotics. Since then, I have little faith in them. This decision is right for me, perhaps not others.

My first hatch was with a broody. It was problem free, lost one chick who just failed to thrive but I read that mothers know best. Then I started incubating and hatching my own. Everything was great, merged everybody outside and suddenly birds were failing. They were getting skinny, bloody feces and so on. I came here, asked everyone and it was a universal diagnosis of Cocci. I did extensive research over the next few days, read that you can expect 50% loss if you didn’t catch it fast enough and so on. Natural cures for cocci just came up short other than ACV, but I stumbled across an image that showed the life cycle of the illness and that it was a spore. I followed that crumb trail and found out it’s something they always carry, but it’s just when immunity is down that it overpopulates the gut and stirs up illness. At the same time, I had been reading up on healthy intestinal flora in humans, flushing your system of all the bad stuff and getting yourself on track. I got to thinking: why wouldn’t this be the same for everything.

I had already used Oregano oil in my life, but I didn’t keep any in the house. I priced out anti-biotic treatment for the birds and discovered it would run about the same cost to do it naturally (about $5 more). Done. I picked up some more Braggs, oregano oil, Aloe Vera Juice and yoghurt. I had such a remarkable series of results that next time we had symptoms of anything, I started to use the same formula. The only bird I didn’t have success on was Winston (Blue Orpington), I just couldn’t get weight back on him and for his fecal discharge to stop being runny, or I would have given him the chance. He declined so rapidly he could barely sit himself upright, I just couldn’t watch it. There’s a point when an animal looks at you and just says it’s done.

Anytime the sniffles come up or if a bird starts limping, I try to get yogurt/buttermilk into them as quickly as I can and start infusing their water with oregano oil. Sniffles are gone within a day and the limping stops within a couple, typically. Whether it’s Mareks, an injury or whatever, I treat everything the same. Good gut flora = a less stressed immune system. Oregano oil is just a natural boost that doesn’t breed resistance and AVJ, when I have it, is a system flush and is given diluted in small amounts. Even with Mareks, as a herpes virus it can be viewed just like a cold sore. People prone to cold sores tend to get them when they are sick or stressed.

Just my reasoning.

and good reasoning it is, IMO

Why not give yogurt/buttermilk/oregano regularly as a preventative to such issues?

Schipperkesue wrote:Why not give yogurt/buttermilk/oregano regularly as a preventative to such issues?

Valid statement. There's a couple reasons. Primarily, I'm not interested in masking issues. I don't want to be what's keeping a particularly weak bird's gut flora in check. I want to know they have indeed gotten over a 'hump' in their health. If I take them off the mixture(s) and they suddenly decline again, it's likely that bird has other issues that can't be fixed by an extra boost, IMHO.

In addition, oregano oil is expensive, as is aloe vera juice.

Since I drink raw milk here, I'm apt to give the birds the leftovers of the milk when it starts to sour, so they do get things like whey on a semi-regular basis as a treat.