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calling all carpenters, bath reno

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rosewood
uno
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1calling all carpenters, bath reno Empty calling all carpenters, bath reno Fri May 18, 2012 1:21 am

uno

uno
Golden Member
Golden Member

Thoughts.

We need to tear out and redo the basement bathroom tub/shower combo. We had one of those horrible one piece fake tile plastic surrounds with molded shelf. It has not stayed glued to the wall behind, there are moisture problems in the bathroom, water oozes over the edge of the tub during showers and has bubbled the drywall. In short, a nightmare.

For a tub/shower surround we are going to use tongue and groove cedar.

Before you freak out, gack! wood in the shower, let me tell you this is not an untried idea in this house. When we built, 20 years ago, we were broke and had not a cent for a tub surround, at least not the tile I wanted. What we did have was a stack of clear tongue and groove pine. I oiled it, Hubby nailed it in as tub surround, put quarter round in the corners with a thin bead of caulk behind the trim and that was it. No caulk under, no caulk at each T&G joint. I HATE caulking and you will find a shortage of it in my house. (we have had marital disputes over the application of that obnoxious, gummy substance. Permanent goop in the corners. Not in my house!)

20 years later, that pine is still there and has survived daily baths and showers in a way I never could have imagined. Maintenance consists of wiping it down with a spray cleaner and cloth. Every 4 or 5 years I go at it with steel wool, give the wood a light scrub with the wool as I apply more oil (finishing oil, not mineral oil) and let it dry a day or two. For 20 years of service, it has been fairly low maintenance. And no leaks!

Basement biff is constructed differently and more of a moisture trap. This time I'd like HUbby to fir out the walls and attach T&G to firring, to leave an air space behind. I'd also like him to prop new tub up ever so slighlty on firring and then finish bottom edge of tub with some fake trim to hide the slight gap beneath. Thought being that if we can allow air movement under the tub and up the backside of the surround, better for airing out moisture problems.

Other thing we will do is rip out the lovely pine trim he so carefully crafted with the router. He was bothered by the tiny nail holes he made nailing it up and had to go at it with one of those horrible, ghastly, who-invented-this-stuff nail filler sticks. I advised him not to! I feel that a nail hole in a piece of wood is an honet and realistic mark of crafting and not something to be ashamed of and hide with goo. But he was adamant. Now, all these years later, that white, bright pine has mellowed to a deep gold, but that nail goop has stayed as bright and white and the day he regretably smudged it on. Now the white dots look even more horrible than any little nail hole ever would have! Lesson learned.

The other thing I've seen done, but think would be more difficult is sheet steel (roofing tin) used as tub suround. How to get a tight seal where the faucet and taps come through is what I can't figure out. And how to keep that sharp edge from being a hazard should anyone accidentally fall in the tub, those metal edges can be very sharp! If anyone has used metal as tub/shower surround, please tell me how you did and how it has stood up to use.







2calling all carpenters, bath reno Empty Re: calling all carpenters, bath reno Fri May 18, 2012 7:06 am

Guest


Guest

I don't know what to say ? I've heard of all sorts of material used in places that normally one wouldn't ,ei: wood in a bathroom .....but I haven't heard of sheet metal as a shower surrond ? I gyess if sould work "" IF "" you find rubber washers to seal off where the water faucets come out ,also if you can somehow seal off all the cut edges somehow ( they will start to show signs of rust or tarnish )? You could get a rubber moulding that you could slip onto the exposed areas and that way you eliminate the chance of getting cut /hurt .You could paint the metal with a enamal paint and that would save some of the wear issues that metal would show after a while .As far as attaching the metal ,not sure what you had planned for that ? screws ?? Pan head ( round headed )with rubber washers maybe ? Would be interesting to see what it will look like once it's finished ?.............interesting indeed !

3calling all carpenters, bath reno Empty Re: calling all carpenters, bath reno Fri May 18, 2012 10:27 am

rosewood

rosewood
Golden Member
Golden Member

Metal really isn't very unusal as shower surrounds are often made of metal with plumbing fixtures that seal. If you gave me a choice of metal or wood I would choose wood. There are some types of wood like cedar that withstand moisture fairly well. You are fortunate in that you have more than one bathroom. We had a similar problem for the second time in our house. There are only so many trees on our property. Our water problem included a toilet leaking and heading toward the crawl space as the wood rotted. We replaced with plywood, water resistant drywall and tile.

4calling all carpenters, bath reno Empty Re: calling all carpenters, bath reno Fri May 18, 2012 11:47 am

uno

uno
Golden Member
Golden Member

ROsewood, we are fortunate in that Hubby works at cedar mill and he lugs home stuff destined for the burn pile. HE has also got in the saw shack when need be ansd custome cut wood. Once, for a friend who wanted a ramp for his enormous motorhome, Hubby cut two, 20 foot 12x18. Fir! Those things weighed a TON! But they certainly supported the motorhome.

Prairie Dog, we have metal on our roof. If a roof can be installed to shed water, I would think that somehow one could make it work for shower surround. But as you point out, it's the sharp edge factor that confuzzles me. I like the idea of round headed screws with gaskets, I do not object to the 'industrial' look at all, as long as it is well done. I just can't quite figure out how to make it safe. But in my mind I see coloured roofing tin, so no need to treat or seal, our roof hasn't rusted despite all sorts of weatehr for 20 years. I would NOT do this with galvanized since that finish is more prone to surface discolouration. If one avoids abrasive cleansers, I don't see why factory applied colour shouldn't last for a long time.

Will have to rip out the current tub, surround and drywall and see what shape the studs are in. Then pop the idea of roofing material on ultra conservative Hubby. He accuses me of inventing ways to make his life difficult. Not true! Evil or Very Mad

5calling all carpenters, bath reno Empty Re: calling all carpenters, bath reno Fri May 18, 2012 12:37 pm

Fowler

Fowler
Golden Member
Golden Member

Very Steampunk!

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Complete How-To

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6calling all carpenters, bath reno Empty Re: calling all carpenters, bath reno Fri May 18, 2012 1:37 pm

uno

uno
Golden Member
Golden Member

Fowler! Thank you! Going to show this to HUbby, this is great!

7calling all carpenters, bath reno Empty Re: calling all carpenters, bath reno Fri May 18, 2012 3:20 pm

KatuskiFarms

KatuskiFarms
Full Time Member
Full Time Member

UNO, I hate to say it, but Holmes on Homes would have heart failure at the thought of tongue and groove shower surround!
Have you ever wondered what is behind the wood surround? I would guess black mould from hell. A tiled surround can look beautiful and complete from the outside, but if not done right the black mould behind is a health issue. Surely tile is better then unsealed tongue and grove wood?

8calling all carpenters, bath reno Empty Re: calling all carpenters, bath reno Fri May 18, 2012 9:32 pm

Guest


Guest

KatuskiFarms wrote:UNO, I hate to say it, but Holmes on Homes would have heart failure at the thought of tongue and groove shower surround!
Have you ever wondered what is behind the wood surround? I would guess black mould from hell. A tiled surround can look beautiful and complete from the outside, but if not done right the black mould behind is a health issue. Surely tile is better then unsealed tongue and grove wood?
.......................I believe that she said that she oiled the wood ? if that is the case then no moisture will get through ,plus if it did it would show on both sides as black wood .Uno I believe they do have a rubber moulding the is used as a protective edge ?

9calling all carpenters, bath reno Empty Re: calling all carpenters, bath reno Fri May 18, 2012 11:37 pm

uno

uno
Golden Member
Golden Member

Yes, the wood was oiled, all cut surface were oiled. THe boards were oiled before they were installed and then oiled again in place. Maintenance is re-oiling every few years. The wood ages fairly well and I think has developed an interesting patina. However...hair conditioner is the WORST thing to try and get off (rotten horsey teen and all that hair!) it makes one heck of a build up! It shows no blackened wood anywhere so I don't think we're having moisture problems.

Also Katuski, a tongue and groove joint is hammered together tightly at installation, nailed through the tongue, so there are no visible nail holes through the wood anywhere. Those joints, especially if they swell a bit with humidity are TIGHT! It's sealing the corners that worried us so it was the only place I would tolerate the ghastly goop. Hidden with a trim board.

Prairie, I think a cruise through a hardware store for one of those edge trims, or something that would work as an edge trim, is in order. Now I'm all excited to go downstairs and start whacking things with a wrecking bar!



10calling all carpenters, bath reno Empty Re: calling all carpenters, bath reno Fri May 18, 2012 11:54 pm

rosewood

rosewood
Golden Member
Golden Member

I'm always interested in renos. I hope see see some pictures from wrecking bars to finishing. I would love a load of either fir or cedar from your husband's mill.

11calling all carpenters, bath reno Empty Re: calling all carpenters, bath reno Sat May 19, 2012 7:38 am

Guest


Guest

Uno , I believe that it's a tube with a slit cut along one side ? that way you have a rounded edge .You could also use any moulding that is intended for the Instant shower stalls .I believe they have a moulding that caps off the edges as well .

12calling all carpenters, bath reno Empty Re: calling all carpenters, bath reno Sun May 20, 2012 3:49 pm

Iceman


Member
Member

Uno
No issue with Cedar in the bathroom shower, has been done for years.
There are also thousands upon thousands of wet and dry Sauna's out there and all lined with cedar.
Cedar was and still is used as an exterior siding all over Canada. If it can withstand BC winters on the outside of your house and keep it dry, it will not have an issue in a controlled enviroment of a shower stall
Interesting fact about Cedar. It begins to rot from the day it germinates right till the day it dies. Then it will not rot after that. Constant moisture will take it's toll though.
As for oiling the cedar, it's better if you do, but not necessary. Cedar expands as soon as it gets wet, therfore it becomes more waterproof the wetter it gets.

13calling all carpenters, bath reno Empty Re: calling all carpenters, bath reno Mon May 21, 2012 10:53 pm

KatuskiFarms

KatuskiFarms
Full Time Member
Full Time Member

Well.... I am surprised to see that this would work. It seems like you need impermeable membranes and silicone and rhino board etc etc etc in order to do "it right". How wonderful that there is a natural, renewable product that can do the job, not wonderful that it is so "uncommon" for this application. My DH and I have ripped out three bathrooms as a married couple, and black mould has been an issue everytime! And it looks like we have another one in this new place. Maybe I'm just paranoid?
I am very familiar with cedar siding; and Uno, my neighbor has been trying to locate some in a particular style to finish an addition. There is no cedar in "the arctic". Does your DH do custom cutting?

14calling all carpenters, bath reno Empty Re: calling all carpenters, bath reno Tue May 22, 2012 12:25 am

uno

uno
Golden Member
Golden Member

I think wood and maybe especially cedar, have some mold repellant qualities if AIR is allowed to circulate. I know it goes agaist all popular wisdom, lore and political correctness but I think an air tight house is the WORST thing for people to live in. Nothing should live in a palstic bag but bread...and even that molds! Bread on the counter dries out! We need to DRY OUT our bathrooms! Rant over.

Katuski, Hubby no longer gets in the saw shack at the mill and besides, the head rig is now automated, no longer 'eyeballed' like it was when HUbby was making the cuts.(so not as much custom cutting as before) But there are two saws on site. They do mostly cedar decking and some siding, bevel and channel. Let me know what your neighbour wants and I'll ask HUbby if he doesn't have some of it stashed in the bush around here. I hate to admit this where Rosewood might hear...but we have a small pile of cedar siding that was going to cover our second chicken house, but we are now going to buck it into shorts and split it for kindling! The clear cedar I have used for kindling...Oy vey! Serioulsy, if you find out what your neighbour needs, I can find out if it's available.

We are undecided about going cedar or tin on the surround. I think it will be determined by what's left of the studs behind the tub surround. I fully expect that to be a black mold mess!

15calling all carpenters, bath reno Empty Re: calling all carpenters, bath reno Tue May 22, 2012 8:50 am

Guest


Guest

I really loved that metal siding treatment in the post Fowler shared. How original! How easy to clean.

Uno, you know my (one and only) bathroom -- I desperately want to redo the surround too but I'm afraid my house will be condemned as a biohazard waste site if I ever expose whatever walks behind that plastic shower wall. Evil or Very Mad

16calling all carpenters, bath reno Empty Re: calling all carpenters, bath reno Wed May 23, 2012 5:39 am

auntieevil

auntieevil
Full Time Member
Full Time Member

Cedar is so warm and wonderful. It smells great too! The metal looks very industrial, and provided it is well sealed or has a way for condensing moisture to escape from behind it, is marvelous. You must share your results with us!
Mold grows well where moist damp air meets cold walls and condenses, so having a well insulated and sealed wall behind the material used to cover the wall is very important. Less condensation, less mold issues.
A well sealed house should have an excellent heat recovery ventilator to remove excess moisture from inside the house and replace it with fresh, warmed, drier air from outside. If nature has her way with controlling the air flow into and out of your home, you will pay for it, in comfort and money. She also won't provide fresh air at the most convenient times, for example, a negative 20 day, with howling winds is perfect for your leaky home to get lots of fresh air as far as nature is concerned.
A ventilator can be up to 93% efficient at recapturing heat from your outgoing air, and will take moist air from your wettest rooms (kitchen, bathroom, basement). Operating costs are the same as running a small fan. The money used to run an HRV is way less than the cost of lost heat via other less controlled means of ventilating a house.
Air leakage can lead to mold problems, as the air travels through gaps and often deposits condensation in the walls where it becomes a problem. By sealing your house and providing controlled ventilation, you can reduce your heating load and increase your comfort levels. We even have our HRV on a timer so we can control the time of day it runs and the frequency. This way we can increase the fresh cool air coming in at night during the warm months. It is so much more effective than opening a window, and quieter too -dang frogs! In the winter, we have it operating more during the day and can shut it off when the temperatures drop really low.
Sorry if this sounds preachy, but I truly believe many people don't recognize the importance of a well sealed and well ventilated home.

17calling all carpenters, bath reno Empty Re: calling all carpenters, bath reno Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:05 pm

uno

uno
Golden Member
Golden Member

Today we ripped out that nasty tub surround in the basement bathroom, which was a one piece plastic glued-in jobbie, expecting to find moisture and maybe some mold behind. We were NOT expecting what we did find.

The drywall was completely saturated up to about the 4 foot mark, which made little sense. It fell apart in our hands, mush. We ripped out great hunks of it. The vapour barrier was intact, but covered with black mold and white fuzz. The plate (2x6) on the floor was rotten, and sitting in water! All the studs behind the tub are rotted off at the bottom. There were the long established colonies of tiny ants that had set up housekeeping in the rotting, moist area behind the tub! GROSS!

That there was some water was to be expected, but the volume of it was puzzling to Hubby. He sliced the vapour barrier, pulled out some soggy fibreglass and heaved a large sigh. "What, what is it? Can you fix it?"
"Yup. With a backhoe."

Seems the problem of a leaky tub surround pales in comparison to the water that has been seeping into our foundation and flooding the area under the tub! The rot is extensive! The ripping out is far in excess of anything we bargained for. We are going to have to change the lay of the land outside the house, change drainage and slope, install gutters and destroy the lawn in the process. THEN we can put the bathroom together! I feel sick about this!

If I ever post that Hubby and I are buying and reno-ing an old house, someone please come kick me!

18calling all carpenters, bath reno Empty Re: calling all carpenters, bath reno Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:20 am

auntieevil

auntieevil
Full Time Member
Full Time Member

That really sucks!
Good luck with the repairs.

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