Responsibility

viczoe wrote:Briarwood sorry if I mis read your post please accept my apology. Some times what we put in writing the reader perhaps,isn't reading or dosn't think before replying( That would be me foot in mouth).

I thought I was being taken to task for starting a thread about what started out to be an eye-opening other thread that took a turn for the worst. I am human and admit I may be a tad sensitive when I read these posts about hundreds of hatchery chicks dieing in transit, not just this last thread but many others over the years it's a traversity but it seems that if they are replaced all is well. I am well aware that I cannot change the world but is it wrong to seek out conversations from others who maybe think that doing one small thing can make a small differance to the suffering of any creature.

Heather

Heather

I want to pose a question that has bothered me since I have been involved with poultry and I would like to ask you specifically because 1-you brought up the hatchery chicks dying in transit and for 2-because you are what I consider a professional breeder of 20 plus years of poultry. I am asking this with no point to make either, other than I want to learn for myself. So please don't take offense as none is meant and people reading this to also not take offense as I am not making this a personal attack on Heather or breeders of any animal.

My question. Why is it that 1000 plus healthy chicks dying in transit from a hatchery is awful but yet a breeder hatching out 100s of healthy chicks then culling the ones that don't conform to the SOP is not considered awful?

Samantha

toybarons wrote:My question. Why is it that 1000 plus healthy chicks dying in transit from a hatchery is awful but yet a breeder hatching out 100s of healthy chicks then culling the ones that don't conform to the SOP is not considered awful?

I have also had the same wonder as you in regards to males hatched in a hatchery that raises birds for the table egg factory farms.

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My question. Why is it that 1000 plus healthy chicks dying in transit from a hatchery is awful but yet a breeder hatching out 100s of healthy chicks then culling the ones that don't conform to the SOP is not considered awful?

Samantha

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That is easy to answer..the chicks in transit died because of neglect and in a horrible way, they got under cooled and died, because of neglect by an IDIOT DRIVER that has probably never owned an animal. BTW, the hatchery and buyer are obviously both super upset, just like you and I and the ONLY one at fault is the pick up driver. This is beyond controls of both seller and buyer and shit happens!

As for culling goes, that has several meanings and has been brought up on this forum many times before, I think you know this. And what is wrong with eating your own raised chickens after they had a nice and cozy life, which was much longer than the 42 days the broiler had who is now vacuum packed at Safeway.

Oh, but hold on there are also vegetarians I should have been more clear maybe:
SORRY, BUT I LIKE TO EAT MEAT!!!

My few cents:

I find true animal cruelty horrid, as well as the people who do it. BUT what is cruel and what is considered humane can be a very slippery slope as others have already stated. IMO, starving or neglecting an animal is cruel. Killing an animal to put meat in the freezer is not…though I know there are folks out there who disagree and believe it to be cruel. Who is right, who is wrong?


I practice what I consider good animal husbandry and do the best I can for the critters under my care. That said I’m not a confrontational in-your face kind of person, not at all. I try to keep an open mind and not to judge others too quick, especially when I may only be seeing a small piece of the bigger picture. But nor do I think doing nothing in the face of real abuse is right.

So yes, I would place an anonymous call if I saw (or suspected) what I felt to be animal abuse. I would also place a follow up call to be sure the situation had been looked into and not gotten lost in the bureaucratic shuffle.

Tough topic is an understatement. It also made me think of a wonderful, thought provoking quote:

The greatness of a society and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
~Mahatma Gandhi

Unfortunately, I think our society as a whole has a long, loooong way to go.

great topic heather!
i think it is different when animals die in transport rather than culling because in transport they died a slow death, normally because of a human error, but culling should be fast and painless.

Toy Barons I think you know there is a difference,most animals that are culled out at a certain point do not suffer and likely end up on someones dinner table. I am at the point in my breeding programs that I don't and never have hatched out 100's to just cull out. When you start with good stock there is less of the un-savory culling. Those animals have lived I would hope good lives and with even my bantams they go on to become food for something and during the time they were with me I was devoted to them approx the 6 hrs a day that I spend in my barn.

Animals slowly dying in transport is a completely different kettle of fish and weather it be out of ignorance or lazyness if these things are not brought to the attention of the transport companies what chance do these fragile creatures have.

Ficker Chick what a great quote and I agree we have along way to go. I love the quote and will keep it.

I just thought this might be a thought provoking subject with some substance, thank you for all your comments.

Heather

So do you all think that the videos and testimonials I've read (on the internet, generally on forums like this one so not to be 100% taken as gospel) about the loathsome practice of chucking male chicks into a garbage barrel, 100s on top of 100s, ALIVE and kicking, which is then dumped unceremoniously on a garbage/compost heap out back of the plant, where one can only hope they're all dead but where I've seen video and read the aforementioned testimonials that in fact they are not all dead, and that some people collect up these sad little lives and bring them home to raise (and maybe/probably to eat later, but humanely cared-for and killed) -- am I to categorize this as savoury, or unsavoury culling?

Quoting you Heather, using your word, but by NO means directing this question solely at you! I think this is a practice that is completely the responsibility of the hatchery, and the only "fault" of these chicks is not that they don't conform to the SOP, but to the desired gender for that business' bottom line.

So, this thread started as a call for opinions on whether or not you would do or say something about abuse and cruelty. Sometimes speaking with your wallet is doing and saying something. I choose not to buy chicken from anywhere except shops that buy ethically raised animals, or I raise them myself. I produce my own eggs, and when I replace my layers, I eat the resulting roosters or make them into dog food.

What do you all think? Is this issue not on par with the rest of the examples you can think of that portray animal abuse and cruelty? Why is ToyBaron's question pushed aside in this thread? I think it's totally valid myself, since we're on the topic.

Peace.
Farmchiq

Farmchiq I think what you are talking about is right on track with what Viczoe started this thread about. I don't think anyone on here thinks what you are talking about is ok in anyway. Viczoe just answered the part about culling her birds and the difference between dying by neglect and a bird that is culled but is killed in as quick and painless as possible after a healthy life. There is most definitely a big difference and I think we all agree that there is a difference on that. If there are too many males, sick or whatever they should be cared for properly while alive and dispatched in as humane a way as possible. Just my thoughts

viczoe wrote:Toy Barons I think you know there is a difference,most animals that are culled out at a certain point do not suffer and likely end up on someones dinner table. I am at the point in my breeding programs that I don't and never have hatched out 100's to just cull out. When you start with good stock there is less of the un-savory culling. Those animals have lived I would hope good lives and with even my bantams they go on to become food for something and during the time they were with me I was devoted to them approx the 6 hrs a day that I spend in my barn.

Animals slowly dying in transport is a completely different kettle of fish and weather it be out of ignorance or lazyness if these things are not brought to the attention of the transport companies what chance do these fragile creatures have.

Ficker Chick what a great quote and I agree we have along way to go. I love the quote and will keep it.

I just thought this might be a thought provoking subject with some substance, thank you for all your comments.

Heather

Heather, I thank you for you response and do appreciate it.

Can I ask you another question I would like to ask you, but I feel it would be hijacking this thread. I do not wish to do that. May I PM the question to you?

Samantha

Farmchiq I thought I answered the question as best I could and I saw the video of which you speak and was equally disgusted but guess what my way of protesting such actions is not giving my business to hatcheries period. The fact that those male chicks are culled is fueled solely by people who refuse to take straight run chicks. I don't think I pushed Toy Barons question aside at all.

Feel free ToyBarons to Pm me.

Peace to you too Chiq
Heather

farmchiq wrote:So do you all think that the videos and testimonials I've read (on the internet, generally on forums like this one so not to be 100% taken as gospel) about the loathsome practice of chucking male chicks into a garbage barrel, 100s on top of 100s, ALIVE and kicking, which is then dumped unceremoniously on a garbage/compost heap out back of the plant, where one can only hope they're all dead but where I've seen video and read the aforementioned testimonials that in fact they are not all dead, and that some people collect up these sad little lives and bring them home to raise (and maybe/probably to eat later, but humanely cared-for and killed) -- am I to categorize this as savoury, or unsavoury culling?

Quoting you Heather, using your word, but by NO means directing this question solely at you! I think this is a practice that is completely the responsibility of the hatchery, and the only "fault" of these chicks is not that they don't conform to the SOP, but to the desired gender for that business' bottom line.

So, this thread started as a call for opinions on whether or not you would do or say something about abuse and cruelty. Sometimes speaking with your wallet is doing and saying something. I choose not to buy chicken from anywhere except shops that buy ethically raised animals, or I raise them myself. I produce my own eggs, and when I replace my layers, I eat the resulting roosters or make them into dog food.

What do you all think? Is this issue not on par with the rest of the examples you can think of that portray animal abuse and cruelty? Why is ToyBaron's question pushed aside in this thread? I think it's totally valid myself, since we're on the topic.

Peace.
Farmchiq

Farmchiq, I think you might be referring to the practice of seperating male and female chicks destined for the egg industry. Yes, these hatcheries do practice seperation and do kill the male chicks usually by means of either gasing with CO2 or by pulvirizing. I also have heard the stories of birds being dumped in local landfills but these were spent hens from the egg industry that lived through the gasing. I know there are people who dismiss them as just stories, but I have spoke to people who have had the experience first hand at rescuing a bird running around the dump that was left for dead when they were dumped.

A hatchery that breeds for the backyard farmer and fancier, like a McMurrays, I don't believe throws any chick away cause they are able to sell them. These hatcheries are not interested in breeding to the SOP. Their interest is in breeding good sound stock.

I think what I am getting out of this thread is that we can agree that a person taking a a bat and beating an animal that is tied up is clearly abuse.
Leaving chicks on the back of a pickup in freezing weather can be consider either as neglegence or abuse, possibly both.
Then there are grey areas in which we likely will not see eye to eye on, such as the treatment of livestock animals, breed culling, people who dress their dogs up in sweaters.

Again, I enjoy these discussions especially when they don't go down a flaming path. Enlightening and enjoyable.

Thanks for all the respectful comments.

The main reason that I refuse to support or purchase chicks from hatcheries is because I don't believe in the culling of male chicks the way the hatcheries do it. We cull males here, believe me we do! But, I either raise them for 5-8 months, they know love, sunshine, good food and free ranging and then we eat them, OR, I give them to a co-worker who is a hawker (I believe that is the term? He keeps, flies and trains hawks) at a younger age (usually about 2 ish months) and he humanely kills them and then packages them into hawk sized meals and they are frozen and fed to the hawks. This is what we do with the male culls from our breedings, though occasionally (not often at all) if we have a batty wingnut of a hen she'll go to the hawks too.

I was raised to respect and appreciate all animals great and small (EXCEPT SPIDERS cause they creep me out, they are ok outside but not in my house). I really feel it's disrespectful to kill a food" animal and waste it. As long as it is being used to feed a cat, dog, hawk, what have you, and it is killed humanely I can understand.

In regards to pet animals, I live in a small town but feel like I am innundated by crappy breeders of mainly dogs. It is heart breaking, frustrating and at times infuriating. I am very greatful that in a year I will graduate from university and be able to work as an RN instead of in the vet clinic. I LOVE my job here, but it really burns a person out after a while. And, I only have so much room (money, time) to keep bringing home other people's pets when they become too much of a burden. The shelters in the area are somehow "not accepting animals" to be signed over to them, so it's a real nice situation to be in.

There are crappy breeders of birds also. Many years ago when I lived on Vancouver Island, I started taking in exotic birds. Most of the birds dumped where small cage birds and most were from breeders of budgies and cockatiels. I used to get dusters and angels. Both types of defects don't live long as they have other defects besides the obvious feathers. Used to get some spent hens too.

I had to stop doing it because I just couldn't afford to anymore. I got way in over my head. You try to save the world and you realize you just can't. So when I thought I was moving back to the mainland we decided to find homes for everyone and luckily found a nice retired couple who took it over. I vowed after that I wouldn't get that far involved again. It's just too hard spiritually.

I have not joined this discussion but I have been reading it and following it and really listening to what everyone has said. I have trouble with this topic because I think there is black and white but then there is a lot of grey. But it is a topic that shouldn't be ignored or left alone because it is the animals that suffer when we don't speak up and they cannot speak for themselves. I commend Heather for starting this thread and all those who joined in. I hope many many others have and will read this and it will make everyone think about what is right and what is wrong (abuse) and then where you stand as an individual on the grey area in between. toybarons said it well in my opinion:

toybarons wrote:I think what I am getting out of this thread is that we can agree that a person taking a a bat and beating an animal that is tied up is clearly abuse.
Leaving chicks on the back of a pickup in freezing weather can be consider either as neglegence or abuse, possibly both.
Then there are grey areas in which we likely will not see eye to eye on, such as the treatment of livestock animals, breed culling, people who dress their dogs up in sweaters.

Again, I enjoy these discussions especially when they don't go down a flaming path. Enlightening and enjoyable.

Briarwood Oh Spiders that's where I draw the line they scare the be-gessers out of me and cannot have them in my house outside it's live and let live - I have to constantly remind myself they are good critters. I am not a small woman but the sight of 1 tiny spider sends me into a trembling mass I think I may faint mess.

Thanks everyone for a thought provoking thread and next time I will try to pick something a bit lighter. I must have I want to get out too the garden fever.

Heather

viczoe wrote:Briarwood Oh Spiders that's where I draw the line they scare the be-gessers out of me and cannot have them in my house outside it's live and let live - I have to constantly remind myself they are good critters. I am not a small woman but the sight of 1 tiny spider sends me into a trembling mass I think I may faint mess.

Heather

I know how you all feel about spiders. Hubby loves to humour himself with my unreasonable fear of them.

Here is a spider story for you (totally off topic of course! )
When we first moved to Australia (land of the giant spider) we were working on a property in the middle of nowhere. We really didn't own anything at the time and had one of those plastic, outdoor tables and chair sets in our dinning room. Classy hey?
We were eating supper and hubby looks across the table at me and then up above my head. His eyes got really big and he kinda froze........ I said "its a spider isn't it?" and he just nodded. I looked over my shoulder and saw the biggest spider I had ever seen (must have been the same size as my open hand and I am not a small woman either) on the wall above my head. I leapt forward taking all the chairs, the table and our evening meal with me.
Hubby was very cranky and said it is just a spider. He got on a chair with a little Tupperware container in had to catch it to put it outside. Well I will tell you, I have never seen a spider move so fast. Scared the dickens out of hubby who fell off his chair, my turn to laugh, peaking from the other room of course!!
That was my first experience with the Huntsman spiders they have down there. I found out after that experience that they are nonpoisonous and do not spin a web, but hunt down their insect prey. I learned to live with them, but was never comfortable.
There are others that are called Funnel Webs and I am just so happy I never lived in an area that had them. They were big and deadly. They would actually 'rear' on their back legs and push their fangs out at you before they gave chase. I think I would faint if I saw one of those. Real nightmare stuff for me!
I have to say I was much more comfortable with the deadly snakes that we saw all the time, than the big a** spiders that live down there!!

Sorry to go off topic, but you talk of spiders had me dreaming about them last night and I thought I would share my spider story that I can actually laugh about now.
I am lucky here to live with a spider eating cat whom I admire greatly for his bravery!!

Regarding the open pickup shipping of chicks. I wonder how many boxes could be placed in a cab. Certainly the driver could have tried to place some up there, but I wonder if they could have fit them all.

If you have ever seen cargo or mail unloaded, you will realize it comes out of the unheated portions of panel vans and trucks, or the cold bottom cargo area of a bus. I am sorry to say, but I have to question the decision to even order chicks this time of year unless you have made arrangements to pick them up from the hatchery yourself.

Have you ever watched the news and weather on an American tv station? Have you noticed that their weather map stops at their own border, as if NOTHING in the world exists beyond themselves? Not to insult our American members, but Americans are perhaps the least aware of the world beyond their own borders. Stereotypical, yet based in reality. A hatchery is in the business of hatching birds NOT knowing the weather conditions into which they are shipping LIVE TENDER chicks. When I have dealt with Albertan hatcheries they state outright they will NOT be shipping chicks before a certain date and you have to think this is because they have a clue about the weather. But if you live in Canada yourself, you should also have a clue about the weather. Just because you want chicks in Jan or Feb does not mean it's a reasonable idea unless YOU are bringing them home yourself.

Sorry...off topic, responding to OFwler's thoughts on the cruelty of live chicks being shipped in open or unheated spaces. But I think Hillbilly posted in another thread that LAWS state truck drivers cannot have cargo with them upfront, where the heat is.

I have my opinions on what animal abuse is and how it changes in regards to different species of animals. Something I don't think any one else has stated yet. Farm animals are lower on the "special treatment" list than house animals and that is how I feel about that. I care less about my chickens than I do about my dog! Does it mean I abuse my chickens? No. Does it mean I should not be allowed to own chickens? No. It just means I don't hold them in as high regard as I do my dog!

I'm not going to add myself to the list of do gooders and tell you all what "I would do" or "what I have done", because words are often different than actions anyway and I'm not here to sell myself! There are some people that claim to be animal rescuers, only to have then come on to a public forum and whine and blame the weather for the frost bite their birds got because they didn't provide proper housing for their chickens! Animal abuse? Maybe it could be considered that, but who am I to judge? I just hate listing to it every winter!

As already mentioned, there are many "animal abuse" claims made by people about certain situations that are clearly as a result of pure ignorance! In a way, that can be perceived as a good thing! At least people show they care! Often these claims are not valid, but at least there is some concern!

Certain dogs were designed (bred) for being out side in inclimate -50 C weather, like a Siberian Husky, while other dogs wouldn't handle 0 degree weather, like a Chi Wa Wa (Sp?). Chanteclers can be kept in unheated coops in winter, but Seramas would not fare too well below freezing.

So with that said, I too have a couple questions I would like to put out there, but I'm not going to apologies for what I say because If I was really concerned about offending someone, I wouldn't say it in the first place. My questions are directed only to the people that have done / do still raise dogs. First question. What is the definite line between a "puppy mill" (back yard) breeder and a "show ring", CKC breeder?

Next question to same people. Do you or have you ever culled puppies that did not conform to the standard? If not, why?

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This is a little off topic but goes with Unos post. I get updates from mcmurry on facebook and the message below was posted last week. I am not sure why it was not too cold to ship to any state mid west.....




McMurray Hatchery
In light of the Denver storm causing us to move affected orders to next week, we are going to be opening the availability of some select birds for this weekend's hatch. You will have until 5:30pm today to order chicks from this weekend's hatch!
Check availability here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Murray McMurray Hatchery
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
McMurray Hatchery - Large selection of day old chicks, poultry and exotic fowl. Homestead supplies and poultry equipment available for sale.
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farmchiq wrote: Sometimes speaking with your wallet is doing and saying something.

Yes, yes it is. Sometimes it is the only way to be really heard.


DWD, I can appreciate you speaking your mind, though I really don’t think anyone here was trying to sell themselves as do-gooders. Heather posted a hot topic and asked some hard questions. People responded as people are prone to do; some with mixed emotions, some tactful, others with brutal honesty. Anyway, I do agree that talk is easy. It’s walking the walk that is hardest.

Now I’m not a dog breeder (or owner even), but I do want to respond to your comment about frost bite since I am one of the folks who made a post about frost bitten wattles. My intention was not to whine, but to gain advice. Well I don’t consider what happened abuse, I DO consider it neglect on my part. There is no excuse, nor will I make one. It was purely my own ignorance that caused my BR boys pain and suffering they should not have had to go through. I cannot go backwards (if only), but I can go forwards and take what I’ve learned from my failure to make sure it never happens again. I am far, far from perfect, but the health and happiness of my chickens is a top priority to me. I will do better to meet my single combed bird’s needs in the future by providing them with proper (heated above zero) facilities during cold weather. THAT is a fact. If someone thinks I’m unfit to have birds because of what happened, so be it. They are entitled to their option. I won’t lose any sleep over it.

On the spider topic:

Awe, you guys are a bunch of meanies. Look at this cubby, wubby face…what’s not to luv?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Having three boys and our fair share of pet spiders living in the house has definitely mellowed me to the arachnid species. In fact, I think they’re kind of neat. Our oldest son (now a teenager) had a special wolf spider he called Waldo when he was younger. Waldo was HUGE, at least the size of a loonie, and lived with us in a little terrarium for three years until his escape. Sadly, we never did find him…


Coopslave, are the Aussie huntsman’s the same as our wolf spider? I'm curious.

Flicker Chick Thanks for ensuring I will be doing a complete bedroom check before retirng tonight.
Now back to our topic- Sorry Darkwing Duck it has been years since I bred dogs and that time I never culled apuppy but there might be them that do. All of our current dogs are spayed, with one waitng to be done. You raised some good points but when people posted how they have tried to do their small parts to help the problems out there with animal neglect I don't think anyone was looking for a pat on the back and calling people do-gooders may have been a bit harsh as I don't consider my self that. Most people who foster and bring these animals from the brink of dead have kindness in their hearts and I am speaking of foster homes not hoarders which is a different kettle of fish. Sometimes the rewards are few and the hurt is deep when fostering and anyone that does it is to be commended, just my thoughts.
I will hold my breath to see if you get any results from your puppy culling question but not likely.

Heather

I am not a dog breeder (like Viczoe, all of mine are fixed, and the ex-husband narrowly escaped the same fate ) but I have a friend who is. She would tell you, as she told me, that a "responsible breeder should not have to cull a pup unless it's born with an obvious defect that will affect its ability to have a normal, healthy and pain-free life as a pet". Normally breeders who raise dogs for show and utility will rehome a 'defective' pup under those circumstances rather than cull an otherwise great potential pet. However if the pup is destined to live in pain or in danger to itself, they will cull it, and more importantly, take note of the possible genetic circumstance that created that defect, and avoid it by whatever means necessary, including neutering/spaying the sire or bitch.

I take some exception to your language. You put the words "do gooder" in bold, and then in another sentence claim "who am I to judge?". Well, you did judge, and I have to say I feel you judged wrongly, and without the full weight of facts to back up your rhetoric. Perhaps if you hate hearing other peoples stories and requests for information so that they can learn, you should stop abusing yourself by visiting the "Advice needed" or other obvious trouble areas for you.

Cheers,
Farmchiq