Responsibility

Responsibilty- "the quality or state of being responsible" - "liable to be called upon to answer for one's acts or decisions"

Given a recent discussion here it has been bothering me about what people feel their responsibilty is regarding the care and welfare of the animals we are stewards of. Now first off let me tell you I was a special constable with animal protection powers for 15 years and you name it I saw it before I had had enough of man's lack of humanity to both each other and all of the creature's who cannot speak for themselves. Now, I reliazse that there are minimum standards to which people should adhere but this is not what I am asking about. Please don't get into ethical issues but stick to strictly food,shelter,water and how you would feel about and what you would do if you saw an animal being it a dog, cow, chick or horse being allowed to die because of someone's nelgect.

The question I have is what do you feel your responsibilty is when it comes to the neglect of creatures big and small do you feel a moral repsoniblity to try to do something even if nothing becomes of your complaint?

While I don't go looking for animal neglect I will be the first to step forward if I come across animals being neglected, or an animal given ill treatment perhaps first by pointing out the nelgect to the owner, if I feel comfortable or if it is bad enough bringing it to the proper people whose job it is to investigate these things and educate if nesescary. I also reliase that you cannot make people love, or respect their animals but you can make sure that the basics are provided. It's too bad that some creatures are treated as throw away and not worth the time to ensure the basics are supplied.
Sometimes all it takes is someone to point the neglect out for changes to be made. But most sadly many for the creatures involved no one wants to get involved for whatever their reason is, don't want anyone to find out their name or don't want to effect their bottom line. sad but true.
What are your feelings on this, are you afraid or indifferent to come foward.

I know there must be opinions out there
Pleasse let's respect everyone's views and let's play nice

Heather

I'll be watching to see what sort of responses you get here Heather, but I can probably predict that. I mean, do you honestly expect people to come forward and admit that they're indifferent to animals in stressful, abusive, dangerous or other problematic situations? I doubt you'll get that!

Obviously the responses you're going to get will be along the same lines to which you subscribe. One can hope that the 'indifferent' people will at least read this and re-think their positions, but honestly, I think you're preaching to the choir here. This may be better as a letter to the editor of a newspaper or something where livestock and other animal producers will see it. Then again, it may just be too big of a mountain to climb.

I find myself regularly disappointed, disgusted, perplexed and shocked at what humans are capable of perpetrating on innocent animals who are, in every way, under our care. We've even managed to stupidly blunder our way into the lives of otherwise self-sufficient wild creatures by building in their territory and then insisting that our rights overshadow theirs'.

I guess reading this thread might make me feel a bit better in that I'm sure there will be lots of good stewards stepping forward to distinguish themselves as animal lovers and activists.

To answer your question, I will and have stopped and jumped out of my car on more than one occasion to stop what I see is abuse. I have called the RCMP and the SPCA a couple of times. I have written letters, signed petitions, knocked on doors and put myself at risk to speak personally to people who I saw were mistreating animals, and whether it was from ignorance or malice, I take the same stance: when we are responsible for the care and welfare of a species that we have domesticated or encroached on, "stupid" or "ignorant" is no excuse. We are humans, graced with reason and memory and logic. Sadly, those things do seem to be less evident in some cultures, industries, gene pools. Sometimes I despair, then I remember that the human race may well run itself out of existence in a few generations anyway, and I don't think that's such a bad thing somedays.

Honestly, sometimes I really don't know what to do in an animal abuse situation. Most often the people who abuse animals won't think twice about being abusive/violent to people who try to help. I don't like confortation and I these days people get killed over lesser things.

If I can help an animal in distress and IF it involves a neighbour that I think I may be able to talk to I would try. But for the most part, the best I would do is call it in and prey for no retaliation from the person I report. If push came to shove where I thought I or my family would be harmed though, I can't tell you I would risk my life to save an animal.

I'm saying this from personal experience, sadly.

I have to agree with you ToyBarons. I have also had issues in my area with nothing being done when I did phone things in, so it is very frustrating to see this. I have to say in the past I have stepped in to stop abuse personally and ended up paying for it. The one time, I had a whip used on me and was close to loosing my eye due to it. Past experiences have made me alot more leary on stepping in personally, and I have to think of my family's protection as I have one of my children with me 99% of the time. I will always phone abuse in if I see it, but as I said it is frustrating when you get the runaround of it "not being in our area" from each of the spcas that are around us.

I wouldn't hesitate to call in what I thought to be animal abuse - signs of starvation, unattended disease, improper shelter from the elements, physical abuse - but I would insist on anonymity. I also wouldn't hesitate to steal someone's dog at night if I witnessed continuous abuse and/or neglect that included it being kept on a short chain with no shelter. Having said that though, two things come to mind.....we have a neighbour who has been here for generations and is quite respected but he shoots anything wild that moves on his property - blue herons and osprey (they eat his koi in his pond), Canada geese and Snow geese (they eat his grain he is growing in his fields, deer (there's just too many of them as far as he's concerned) that he tosses into a big pit at the back of his property which feeds the coyote population, etc. But I've done nothing about it for fear he would catch wind it was me and I would be shunned from the handful of families under the same last name in our area. He is also very helpful and smart and has helped us out with some things here on our property and fear losing that 'privilege'. Everyone knows he does this but no one reports him.

Perhaps that's off topic but the other example that is on topic is the folks who claim to love their pets (and I believe they do) but contain them in small spaces or chain them because they don't have a fenced yard, or the overcrowding of birds because of their over-exuberance for the species. A common sight I have come upon with poultry keepers is allowing their waters to remain empty for a few hours a day, or constantly full of shavings or filthy water that doesn't get flushed regularly.

Lastly, last week we were driving home from Vancouver and were somewhere around the Cawston area but where few people live and this guy pulls on to the highway in front of us, from a pullout, in his ATV, far enough ahead of us to do so and guns it down the highway about 1000ft further to where his home is with his Jack Russell running for its life on the side of the highway chasing him. I was furious and asked my husband to stop so I could say something to the guy but he wouldn't. I wish now I had the sense to grab the dog which was way behind this guy, and when passing him as he waited for his dog, I would've like to have given him a wave with his little dog in our car heading to his new home.

Hmm..... I am not sure whether I should weigh in here or not.
I think so much of this is about perception. It is a tough one for sure.

signs of starvation, unattended disease, improper shelter from the elements, physical abuse

These are the important factors I think. Certainly signs that an animal is not being cared for.
I have to admit that my ideas about care can be different than anothers. We have working dogs. They are bred for working cattle and used a lot here. We respect them and value them not only for their working ablility, but for their individual personalities. They are kept outside in covered runs with insulated dog houses full of straw. They are happy in their pens and are run everyday that they do not get out to work.
Many people would find this unsavoury. They like their dogs to be loose and run free all day and then come in the house at night. They find it inhumane to have them locked up. My view is that it is inhumane to let a dog with a strong drive to live unsupervised all day. It learns bad habits and does bad things that the owners many not even know about. This is what I mean it is all about perception.
We are very firm with our dogs and they are very well behaved. They get play time, but they are very respectful of all the people around them when they are loose. Some people think that is not right and a dog should be a dog whenever it wants. We don't happen to think that way. Does that mean that our dogs are abused and not kept right because it does not come into line with what others think in right?
I run ours down our road with the quad too. It is a gravel road that is not overly busy, but it does get some traffic in the summer. Sometimes the old fellow gets left behind a bit, but he catches up when I slow down. The others need a stretch and the old fellow really does enjoy coming too. I would be shocked and angry if someone would stop and pick him up and put him in their car. See what I mean about different views?
That is why I have trouble with threads like this. Our animals are well fed, we value them and we care for them how we think is best for them. Is it up to someone else to tell us we should be doing it differently cause they think our way is not right?

Dont' get me wrong, I hate seeing skinny, sick looking animals as much as anyone else, but where is the line drawn?

I think you explained pretty clearly where that line is Coopslave. Fundamental needs is where the line is drawn. After that, so many factors come into play. There are just too many variables. But the bottom line is, are we providing the fundamentals? In my mind those are food and water, shelter, breed-appropriate activities or tasks, and health care when it's required.

Just as an aside, and in agreement with you CS, I have a new Maremma who I made a big straw bed for in an open-but-sheltered building. He chooses to sleep on the front porch with no mat, and when the wind blows, no shelter. He is fed enough to have flesh on his bones and a luxurious coat. He has heated water to drink. And he gets a milkbone every morning when I leave for work just 'cause I love him. My other dogs only stay outside during the day when the weather is fair, and they sleep on dog beds in my bedroom, or on my bed. I would never switch the two.

I have never hesitated and never will hesitate to call the authorities when I felt an animal or a human was being neglected to the point of cruelty, my wife and I watched a guy put his 2 very young daughters in the car on very hot day, after 5 minutes I went over and opened the door, he started to yell and scream at me that he could discipline his kids anyway he saw fit. He was aggressive and angry so we called the police and when they arrived he started yelling at them as well, so they took kids. Children animals birds all living things need to be respected and cared for and it is our duty and responsibility to help protect.

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Very good respones everyone. Given my previous occupation, one I would rather forget but can't even I am not going to endanger either myself or my family but at the very least I will phone and continue to phone until there is a satisfactory outcome. That outcome to me is just the basics, it's all we can expect.

Coopslave, Farmchiq- I have had working dogs both types when I had my flock of 50 ewes and those types of dogs require their own management styles and yes there are people out there that don't get it that these are not pets so to speak but obviously you and I both ensure that they have food water and don't freeze to death or bake in the sun.

Over the years at work I found that it was just ignorance on the part of a lot the people(which to me was always a surprise, how someone can not know that a animal requires shelter) and by reporting them at least the problem can be addressed and many cases the animals did not need to be removed and it's life was made somewhat better.

Where I worked weather the person choose to leave their name or not it was their choice but the case was always looked into. Sometimes though when I came upon things you knew others had to see the animals plight and either choose to ignore it or were just to lazy to phone or do any thing which I found disgusting. Phone or sending a letter or in this day and age a picture just seems to be beyond some people and quite frankly I don't know how they sleep at night, I could not. Though my work though I found that a lot of creatures are just throw a ways and easily replaced to which I say somewhere there is a lack of shame.

None of us is perfect(esp. me) but I the little things we do out there can make a small difference somewhere down the line and Tara we have been SPCA animal fosters for many many years to many creatures, horses, dogs etc. except poultry or water fowl or sheep who could have brought disease to my flocks.

Thanks for your responses everyone and keeping the thread on a respectful note.

Heather

Coopslave, occasionally I allow my dog to run when I'm in my vehicle as well but it is on a quiet dirt road (not a highway where it's obvious other cars are approaching at 100km/hr) where I can see far ahead and my dog is always in view.....usually way ahead of me. Also, I'm all for outside dogs as long as they have the shelter they need and are plenty warm enough.

Just didn't want you to think I was uptight or anal about those subjects. I'm guessing being a dog at your place would be good thing!

I find that most of the "abuse" I run accross is neglect or a lack of knowledge. It doesnt take much for me to respectfully make a suggestion (do a littl education) in a non confrontational way. I can be mildly confrontational if need be, I have been downright in your face a few times. Generally, with a few suggestions and reccomendations, things get much better.

I have been involved in rescue for many many years, figuring that if you breed, then you rescue, but I have really backed off rescue over the past few years. After spending thousands of dollars over the years to do rescue on dogs from other people's bad decisions, and some BIG name breeders refusal to take back the puppies they have cranked out and sent to the first paying customer that walks by. The rescues have caused me greif, heartache, and more money than I care to admit. Im worn out and find that I care a little less every time I get that call, we have a husky and we cant keep her any more.

Too often I listen to the rantings of stupid busy bodies who stick thier nose in everyone else busines witout actually knowing what is going on, or what is best for the animal. I had a person freak on me because my goats were in the brush eating leaves instead of in the pasture eating grass. I had the SPCA show up at my house screaming mad about me tying horses to trees and leaving them there blindfolded for days..... seriously... I had 1 hourse, who was loose in the field. They were actually looking for my neighbour who had fly sheilds on her uber expensive show horses, who liked to stand in the shade of the trees. I had a fairly big name shelti / collie breeder, who has been around forever, come by to borrow a couple of things then loose it because at -15 my husky babies (4 weeks old) were outside playing in the snow. In front of thier well bedded house. I tried to explain to her that they were SIBERIAN huskies, not MEXICAN huskies and that if they wanted to be outside it was thier coice. Needless to say she heard nothing but did get a lot of attention for "reporting this tragedy adn abuse" on various chat groups, forums, in emails, etc. Sigh.

Cynical? ... Yep! I am tired, fried and worn out. And I find that I am not enjoying Facebook much any more as it is filled with the most horrific photos of true actual animal abuse (not the lack of personal labled bowl, or matching collar and lead set that some call "abuse"). Im tired of seeing them, they make me want to know and do less, not more.

Flame away people, Im wearing fire retardant undies!

ANd Viczoe throws a stone into a hornet's nest....

First impressions can be wrong. What looks, ont he surface, to be neglect, might not be. I have had to learn to think in broader terms than I once did. It is very easy to march under the righteous banner when in fact a knee jerk reaction thinking your way is the right way is NOT righteous, it's just YOUR way.

I hear a lot about shelter, especially for large animals. I am undecided on this. Long before we came along to domesticate these animals, they lived on prairies and plains without shelter. We have built shelters for our horses only to have the hores REFUSE them, no matter what the conditions, to stand out in the rain, snow, whatever is falling from the sky. If a large animal native to this country is well fed and has open water (not eating snow) they can withstand some extremes of temperature. WE the people might feel uncomfortable looking at it and then we have to admit that we are pushing our own feelings onto an animal. But I have been amazed at the seemingly STUPID decisions that animals will make if left to their own devies. This might look like neglect. But horses and cattle evolved without a barn in sight. Under-nourishment however changes this scenario drastically. So does shaving your horse so he looks pretty in the show ring all winter. The shelter debate also is affected when we disallow small animals thier natural winter denning ability or keep animals that are NOT native to this climate or continent.

Yes, Viczoe, I do speak up, I have spoken up, have taken hay and water to staggering animals. I have arranged for custody. I give money. I loan trailers. ANd yet right here on my property right now is a horse who LOOKS on the surface like a neglect case, he is so ghastly thin! He is fed THREE TIMES A DAY! BUt to glance in here you'd think he was neglected. First glance shows his bones, it does NOT show that his teeth are done, his feet are done, the worming that's done nor the beet pulp he just ate and will eat again at night.

A bad situation that at first glance appears bad might not be. It is hard to tell sometimes. Having someone swoop in here and lecture me on my short comings as a horse keeper, when I am custom cooking for this horse! would be insulting indeed. SOme high faluttin, well meaning passerby, with every good intention in the world, might get my high faluttin boot in their butt for telling me my business! This is a tough one, Viczoe, a tough one indeed!

I have been laughed at more than once for how I treat my chickens/birds. I also know the difference in the type of laughter. When I show my birds I take them out of their show crates regularly, after judging, to assure them that they are okay. I kiss and cuddle my birds. One gentlemen slyly made a comment about me kissing my rooster, a comment I found rather rude but brushed off. The most wonderful comment I had was also at a show, different one. A lady saw me cuddling my bird and commented that she could tell who was the pet of the coop. She then leaned in real close and said she did the same thing too.

Back in 2009 when I joined my first poultry forum, the one most you are likely familiar with, I think I was an anomaly. A pet chicken owner. I couldn't even cull a sick bird cause I couldn't bear to kill/end a life. I got my share of comments that chickens were chickens NOT pets. One in particular even made me consider leaving forums altogether as I din't feel welcome being just a pet chicken keeper.

Funny thing is I am sure that there are people that would consider me abusive for putting my birds into a bird show. In fact I know there are.

No matter how small or big they are, they don't have a choice, whereas we do. When we decide to keep animals, It is our responsibility to ensure very best possible care for them. If I don't like where I live or don't like my job, I can always move and quit my job. Animals don't have those options, treat all beings as equal and with most respect.
The joy of watching your critters being happy and content...
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Topics like this frustrate me.

I work in a vet clinic. I see abuse in a variety of ways (puppy mill/backyard breeders, neglect, starvation, etc) nearly every day. Vets are hesitant to call the authorities because the SPCA has not (apparently) developed clear guidlines in what is classified as neglect, abuse in terms of "how much food is adequate", "how much space is adequate" for dogs in particular. Cats, well society thinks cats are disposable. I have a cat who was dropped off to be put down as the owner was having surgery. I couldn't do it. I couldn't hold this beautiful animal in my arms while the vet euthanized him, due to the inconvenience of the owner. So - I have a cat. I also have been involved in fostering for the SPCA (which I will no longer do, at least not while I live here, as I find the SPCA in the area to be difficult at best to work with, despite the hours and money I poured into my fosters). I have been to puppy mills and called the SPCA, and made reports, and nothing has been done.

I have even had a visit on my farm FROM the SPCA, apparently our neighbour didn't like our horse/goats. Called up and told them my horse was stuck to her stomach in the mud. Flat...out...lie. The horse came running up to the gate and nuzzled the officer for a treat. So, that officer wasted an hour of his time and twenty bucks worth of gas to investigate someone's thoughtless complaint. My dog is tied up outside the house occasionally, when it's warm out (but not hot), because she likes to chase squirrels no matter where they go. She is not tied 24/7, ignored, beaten, malnourished or neglected, and she just lays on the porch while she's tied up. I don't think that's unfair.

I really don't know what else to say here. Obviously this is an offshoot of Ty's thread. I don't personally, purchase hatchery stock to use in my breeding groups, and I don't buy or sell shipped chicks because I don't feel comfortable with it. I shipped chicks once and I was sick to my stomach until I found out they all made it to their destination. Too much stress for me, thx! Anyways that's my 2 cents. It sounds nice and rosey to say you reported abuse, but from my experience unfortunately it usually doesn't result in much happening to rectify it.

Briarwood, Uno I admit I went to many calls that were unfounded and most times ended up having a nice chat with the folks, no harm no foul but to tic off the owners but for all those times for the times that I did indeed come upon sad situitions that required attention it was well worth it. As much as there are the guns ablazing type of people with the SPCA (I didn't work for them) I was the lets wait and verify type of person.

Also Brairwood is this not what forums are about providing thought provoking conversation from time to time, if you would prefer to see this thread locked then just request it I don't hold grudges and we can return to our light conversation of buying and selling birds and eggs etc.. I too am also a trained vet Tech and have seen that seedy side of life. Sorry if you are offended my my thought provoking thread but I don't think it's wrong to find out the thoughts of others on deeper subjects.

I reliazse that there is nothing to be done but I refuse to be part of the it dosn't make a differance crowd and will continue with my rose colored glasses it's got me this far in life.

Heather

I will refrain from further comment on this post. I am not offended and do not intend to offend, but am rather frustrated with the lack of ability to help animals that really need it. I am not intimidated by "deeper, thought provoking" threads, and voiced my thoughts on the topic. I could elaborate but I'd rather go tend to my animals. Feel free to continue the conversation without me.

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As someone already mentioned in this topic, animals are considered property under the law. Then there is all the red tape of bylaws and codes each having their own laws and guidelines. Then if one is lucky enough to see an abuser in court, too often all that is done is a slap on the wrist, maybe a fine and possibly a ban from owning an animal.

I get frustrate also. Also with the passing of age, I become more and more jaded to these things. I am part of a network that is about social change and daily I read the headlines on animal abuse. All the education in the world will never end animal abuse 100%.

I think for the most part, each of us can only do so much and try our best to do just that.

Viczoe I didn't get the impression Briarwood was directing anything towards you and your choice to start this thread at all........what I understood was she was exasperated by the amount of abuse and neglect out there that she has seen first hand and that rarely was the animal's welfare a priority and that she doesn't even support shipping 25 chicks never mind 1000.

I find sometimes the challenge of emailing and forums, especially when we don't know one another, can be misinterpreted given we are not in each other's presence to see facial expressions, tones and have the opportunity to clarify what we are trying to say.

Not taking sides but just my interpretation from this end.

triplejfarms wrote:

Also Brairwood is this not what forums are about providing thought provoking conversation from time to time, if you would prefer to see this thread locked then just request it

i think she was giving her opinion on the subject liked you asked?? forums are supposed to be friendly communtities...to learn, share opinions..... i thought they were supposed to be anyways..? as far as animal welfare/abuse it comes in different packages, i find dressing a great dane in a sweater locked in a appartment its whole life "abuse" there is many faces to it...
gotta go do chores...

LOL ~ When you think of it, you're right.

Personally, I find most poultry auctions to be animal abuse. Auctions that post rules of what they will accept for sale, then clearly bend their own rules just to make a sale. Birds crammed into poorly made boxes, no room to move, no food or water and some birds that are clearly sick. The very first poultry auction I went to is a popular one held here in AB every year. I was so ill on seeing the conditions of what the birds were put through, I left.

I have discussed this with others. I know many who agree with me, but no one wants to "rock the boat" on these type of poultry sales either.

I read this when you first posted Viczoe and had to think before answering as I can get quite upset by this issue. I think this quote of Farmchiq's
"I find myself regularly disappointed, disgusted, perplexed and shocked at what humans are capable of perpetrating on innocent animals who are, in every way, under our care. We've even managed to stupidly blunder our way into the lives of otherwise self-sufficient wild creatures by building in their territory and then insisting that our rights overshadow theirs'." and Piet's post sum up my thoughts.
We domesticate these animals and it is our responsibility to CARE for them whether or not they are destined to be food or not. I don't think just food, water and shelter is enough and all the needs to be looked after or don't keep the animal, simple. I do think that alot is due to ignorance and starting with calmly given information should be the first step (very hard for me to stay calm at times!) but if that doesn't work then yes something needs to be done however I won't put my family in danger either. It's very hard judge everything with the same paint brush and yes there are different needs for every creature. I have stalls in my barn but my horses have spent their entire lives in the elements and locking them in a stall would cause serious distress. I also have shelters and they are fed in their (open doored so they can come and go) stalls in weather that isn't nice to encourage them to come in. I drive by a property with 2 horses and everyday I just want to stop and fix the damn coat on the horse! Someone feels the horse needs a coat but it's ALWAYS hanging to the side and far too loose so although it might be helping to keep one side of the horse warm all I can think is of the things it could get stuck on or a foot getting caught as horsey is rolling Ah! No its not a serious neglect but still drives me nuts. It also makes me upset that our neighbour let their dog die of parvo because they didn't want to be bothered with vaccinations and now bought another puppy and doing the same thing! The house down the road drives me insane because she wears gucci and chanel because she has runs of bully breed dogs that are never not pregnant and have NEVER been out of those runs but then she also has a preshcool play slide etc 10ft from the road and last year tethered a little mini horse for the entire growing season in grass over a foot high so that she wouldn't have to mow! Anyone that knows horses especially the little ones they cannot be left with that much green grass as they will literally eat themselves to death not to mention tying a horse up like a dog! I've seen mini horses with feet so neglected they look like skis and another horse that the halter had grown into the face because the horse had grown but that halter had never been taken off or adjusted because the horse was too hard to deal with!!! Dogs left on chains and never ever let off or worked they are simply there to be security guards although really what can they do tied on a 20ft chain. The things I have learned about where our eggs, chicken, beef etc in grocery stores since joining these forums has horrified me and it was due to my ignorance and everyone else's that these practices have become ok

Briarwood sorry if I mis read your post please accept my apology. Some times what we put in writing the reader perhaps,isn't reading or dosn't think before replying( That would be me foot in mouth).

I thought I was being taken to task for starting a thread about what started out to be an eye-opening other thread that took a turn for the worst. I am human and admit I may be a tad sensitive when I read these posts about hundreds of hatchery chicks dieing in transit, not just this last thread but many others over the years it's a traversity but it seems that if they are replaced all is well. I am well aware that I cannot change the world but is it wrong to seek out conversations from others who maybe think that doing one small thing can make a small differance to the suffering of any creature.

Heather

It seems to me that alot of people have had issues with the spca not showing up to check out issues. I know with me, the issue when found the one time was too late to help the animals as they were already dead, except the one cat who had free run of the yard, but they did not even come and get her.

I have also had them show up at my place and seize everything when I was caring for an animal that had been abused at another place. I did get my animals back and get everything straightened out but it was terrifying for myself, my animals and my children for this to happen. Even when the said animal was under vet care, and had been brought to their attention at the previous place and then when I took it I had phoned the SPCA to let them know I had it and was looking after it, and then someone else phoned them on me.

I don't have much faith in the spca since then, so when I do run across animal abuse/neglect (which I also agree is a grey blurry line as to where abuse begins) I will try to be pleasant and suggest a different way to accomplish what needs doing, if my family and person is not threatened. Unfortunately in many cases people either just don't care enough to listen or get angry at the "interruption" of what they are doing. I see abuse yearly here, and have reported and know the one fellow has been reported regularly and he never has been checked out. Last year he had 5 cows go through the ice on his dugout, never made sure his water was opened or opened his corrals so the cattle could get to open water, and left the cows in the dugout. Come springtime those 5 cows were still in the dugout and are probably still there while the other cattle still need to drink from that water source. They drank around the one cow until it froze over again too hard for them to break through.