Questions about Standard of Perfections - ABA and APA

Heel low:

Questions in regards to the Standard of Perfections (SOP); American Bantam Association (ABA) and American Poultry Association (APA).

In the past, the Standards have been a bit off in naming breeds by variety and traits.  Yeh, I know...what to do with the BLUE "Buff" Duck (1914), the GOLD "Silver" Appleyard Duck (2000), the PIED "Buff" American Geese (1947), the NON-Tufted "Tufted" Roman Geese (1977), the NON-Saddlebacked "Saddleback" Pomeranian Geese (1977), the NOT-WHITE FACED "White Faced" Black Spanish (1874)...and what to do about the White Faced WHITE "Black" Spanish chickens (1874).  I suppose we have all learned nothing much if the Appleyard was recognized as recently as 2000!  Another breed with a colour variety of Silver IN the name!
  

RHODE ISLAND
Why are the Rhode Island chickens two different BREEDS...the White (1922) and the Red (1904-single comb / 1905-rose comb)...those should be varieties within the breed, not breeds segregated by themselves.

I can see allowances have been made in the APA SOP to allow for the recognition of the Rhodes as two breeds based on comb types...but WHY?  Would there be severe fallout if this breed was made as one, with two comb types (like the Leghorns as single or rose and the Dorkings in Cuckoo as again, single or rose).  Alterations were embraced by the Brown Leghorn clan when the two pen system of double mating was acknowledged and the recognition of only one half of the pen was altered where the BROWN Leghorn became two varieties, one Light and one Dark (1923 for Single combs in Brown to Light and Dark & then the Rose combs in Brown to Light and Dark in 1933).  I applaud that innovative and concise amendment.  Good show, eh!

2010 APA SOP page 6:

BREED:  An established group of individuals possessing similar characteristics, and when mated together produce offspring with those same characteristics. A breed may include a number of varieties of the same general weight, distinguished by different color plumage, or different types of combs, or a comb and color as in Dorkings and in some cases by bearded or non-bearded.

Dorkings were recognized in the Cuckoo variety with both single and rose combs in 1998, so the Rhodes should have been done this way...why not changed to suit the format...and remove the "different types of combs" criteria for breeds???    I find it complicates what should be made simpler...but whatever...not everyone wants to simplify or streamline things I suppose. 
 


WHEATEN SHAMOS & MALAYS MALES
Why are there only FEMALE Wheaten Shamos and Malays (1996) in the APA SOP but both genders in the ABA SOP for Shamos (but no Wheaten "any gender" in the Malays, 2005 edition at least)... it has been a while since the girls got recognized.  Maybe that is in the works...I grow tired of trying to keep pace with all this.  

I have seen some clerical errors in the APA SOP 2010 and maybe that is what it is, but maybe not...here is what I mean.

There appears to be some "clerical errors" in the APA SOP from 2010.  Page 5, Admission of Breeds and Varieties, paragraph e., second word "prtition" should be "petition."  Page 175, if the Aseels in Wheaten male ARE recognized (description of the variety of a male Aseels in Wheaten variety appears on page 194), then remove the "(female)" behind the variety listed "1996 .... Wheaten."  Page 395, there is a "B" for where the letter "R" should be...  In the Blue Calls...they are listed properly as "Blue Bibbed" (page 341) but show up on the Class index page (326) of Ducks as "Blue" (1977).  Something that ABA should adopt (maybe they have by now...been a while since I bought a new copy of the SOP) is BIBBED for the Blues with white bib & flights...seeing as the Chocolates are recognized (no white bib/flights) and I have both bibbed and self coloured Chocolate Calls here...the Blues too.


Yes, indeed...on the index Class page for All Other Standard Breeds (APA SOP 2010, page 174-175), Aseel (Asil) and the Shamos, and Malays...all say Wheaten (female) and all listed as recognized in 1996.  But if you put on yer sleuthing cap...very smart looking...you will find the most confusing of additions.  There IS a worded description for...WHEATEN ASEELS - MALES (on page 194)!  Looking over the listing for the female Wheaten in the Aseels...yeh, seems to be word for word for the Shamos and Malays.  I don't have these breeds or varieties but ponder how basically a wild type pattern can be so durn messed up.

I DO get that "Wheaten" is a handle used for way too many hobby names and most difficult at times to describe "a" Wheaten like it means one thing only...but Wheaten is pretty much wild type based on eWh and the lighter versions are mutations eWh and Di to make them diluted.


Some more clues...in the section of the APA SOP...where images of the drawings of the breeds and varieties are shown...

2010 - APA SOP, Page 206...

ASEEL -- WHEATEN MALE spot,,,

Blank slot with caption that reads:  "Male illustration not sponsored"    

2010 - APA SOP, Page 208...

MALAY -- WHEATEN MALE spot,,,

Blank slot with caption that reads:  "Male not recognized"    

2010 - APA SOP, Page 219...

SHAMO -- WHEATEN MALE spot,,,

Blank slot with caption that reads:  "Male not recognized" 

Aseel male in Wheaten was not sponsored...so must then be recognized??  But the Malay and Shamo in Wheaten of the male gender are NOT RECOGNIZED.

In pursuit of the NO Male Wheaten variety, more firewood to the burning question.  Recent additions past your own copies of the 2010 APA SOP's...there are now....<<drumroll please!>>...  

- Blue Wheaten OEGB (male description basically says to replace the black areas with slatey blue).
- Ko Shamo Standard (Revised October 12, 2013) has Wheaten males.
- Marans have a Wheaten Male description.


Let's lookit two of the WHEATEN male descriptions, shall weeze...   

http://www.amerpoultryassn.com/:

WHEATEN Ko Shamo
Color - Male
Revised 10/28/13  


COMB, FACE, WATTLES & EAR-LOBES:  Bright Red.
BEAK:  Yellow or dusky yellow, yellow preferred.
EYES:   Pearl preferred. Bay acceptable.                                                                                                                            
HEAD:  Reddish orange.
NECK:  Reddish orange. Front of neck: Black.
BACK:  Dark red. Saddle: Dark red.
TAIL:   Main Tail: Black. Sickles: Lustrous greenish sheen.
WINGS:  
           Shoulders & Bows:  Dark red.
           Coverts:  Black
           Primaries:  Black, outer webs edged with bay
           Secondaries:  Part of outer webs forming wing bay: Reddish bay. All other secondaries black.
BREAST:  Black.
BODY & STERN:  Black.
LEGS & TOES:  Thighs: Black.  Shanks & Toes: Yellow to dusty yellow.
UNDERCOLOR OF ALL SECTIONS:  Light slate.

Here is another Wheaten variety colour pattern description fer males...so y'all can digest the differences, eh!  

http://www.amerpoultryassn.com/:

WHEATEN MARANS
COLOR -- MALE  


Disqualifications: Spotted Breast. Black or no Triangular wing bays at all.

Wheaten cocks are black, with a coppery-red coat, and so looking like the Black Copper cocks except as for the triangular wing mirror which is brown.


Comb, Face, Wattles and Earlobes: Bright red.
Beak: Light horn shading to white at tip.
Eyes: Reddish bay.
Shanks and Toes: Pinkish white.
Head: Light orange, free from dark feathers. (varying from golden-red to brown-red )
Neck:  Hackle: Light orange, free from dark feathers. (varying from golden-red to brown-red )  
           Front of neck: Black.
Back: Mahogany Red
Saddle: Mahogany Red color matching the hackles
Tail:  Main Tail: Black with reddish cast.
        Sickles and Coverts: Black with glints of beetle green
Wings:  Shoulders: Strong Mahogany Red
             Bows: Strong Mahogany Red to match back
             Coverts: Lustrous Black forming a bluish black armband.
             Primaries: Black, edged in brown.
             Secondaries: Brown with internal Black barbs forms a Brown Triangular wing bay.
Breast: Black.
Body and Stern: Black.
Legs:  Lower Thighs—Black
Shank and Toe Feathering—Black.
Ear Down: Brown
Under-color: Light slate. Very light in hackle and saddle.

So NO real answers as to why there are some BREEDS that have NO Wheaten males and others, do...

Wheaten (defined as "the predominant color of ripened wheat") is not mentioned once in the ABA SOP definition of the Wheaten Plumage for the males.



I am quite sure I will get to laugh at myself when or if I get some answers to the Rhodes as two breeds in combs AND why the Wheaten male in Shamos and Malays don't seem to be recognized by APA.  I'd like to learn and it is probably some sort of historical reason or reasons for the why's and what for's.  Should be fun to hear back...thanks, eh! 

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

WF:  DUCKS Call, East Indie, Mandarin, Crested, Australian Spot & Appleyard
        GEESE Buff, Buff Tufted & Buff Pied American      
        RUDDY Shel goose/duck
        SWAN Australian Black
LF:   BANTAM Brahma Wyandotte Booted Chantecler  
        STANDARD Chantecler   PHEASANT Silver and Red Golden  
        Heritage TURKEY Jersey Buff, Bourbons, Ronquière, Lilacs, Blacks, Bronzes, Narris
        Reg'd Australian Cattle Dogs, Jacob Sheep & Nigerian Dwarf Dairy Goats

Tara, before I take the time to go into this thread, if and when you leave do you plan on removing all of your posts as usual? When you do this it makes it a waste of everyone time as the thread is all disjointed. Not being mean but it is very disrespectful to everyone's time and efforts to respond to your posts if that is your intent as I believe this will be the 3rd time round for this forum.
Heather

viczoe wrote:Tara, before I take the time to go into this thread, if and when you leave do you plan on removing all of your posts as usual? When you do this it makes it a waste of everyone time as the thread is all disjointed. Not being mean but it is very disrespectful to everyone's time and efforts to respond to your posts if that is your intent as I believe this will be the 3rd time round for this forum.
Heather

I have never left.

If you have been following the new rules as set out on this forum (as of what, February 2014??), removal of posts or even editing is a violation to which one faces permanent expulsion & I have always followed the "rooles" here. I find it uncomfortable and disrespectful to have advise another member of these regulations since this should have been a conversation conducted via the "PM" system in private or with Jayme.

Everyone invests time & efforts in the threads (writing them, reading or responding to them) and one person's "time & efforts" is no more valuable than anyone else's.

Great, so I assume this time round you will not remove your posts or maybe you will put back all the posts you removed previously so the threads will make sense to new people reading them.

As for your inquiry about the why's of the Wheaten Standard for each breed, I would refer you to the APA standard committee.

Heather

viczoe wrote:Great, so I assume this time round you will not remove your posts or maybe you will put back all the posts you removed previously so the threads will make sense to new people reading them.

Yes please put back all the posts that you have removed.

viczoe wrote:Great, so I assume this time round you will not remove your posts or maybe you will put back all the posts you removed previously so the threads will make sense to new people reading them.

As for your inquiry about the why's of the Wheaten Standard for each breed, I would refer you to the APA standard committee.

Heather

Judge Troy Laroche has already responded to my inquiry in regards to the Rhodes and the Wheaten males and he is the one that suggested it was more appropriate to have the APA Standard's Committee answer than to have a judge reply on the matter. He has already cc'd you and I that information.

Tara

The owner of this forum has made choices that drove away key members. The result has been the death of this forum.

I am thankful for any contribution Higgins makes to this forum, temporary or otherwise.

Heel low:

I have received answers back from the Chairman of the APA Standard Revision Committee. If anyone is interested in this, you may simply e-mail me.

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
ranchrat <at> telusplanet <dot> net
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

WF: DUCKS Call, East Indie, Mandarin, Crested, Australian Spot & Appleyard
GEESE Buff, Buff Tufted & Buff Pied American
RUDDY Shel goose/duck
SWAN Australian Black
LF: BANTAM Brahma Wyandotte Booted Chantecler
STANDARD Chantecler PHEASANT Silver and Red Golden
Heritage TURKEY Jersey Buff, Bourbons, Ronquière, Lilacs, Blacks, Bronzes, Narris
Reg'd Australian Cattle Dogs, Jacob Sheep & Nigerian Dwarf Dairy Goats

Tara,
I am curious as to why these points about the APA standard are so inportant to you? Or why you feel you have to point them out? Are you a member of the APA?

bshelton wrote:Tara,
I am curious as to why these points about the APA standard are so inportant to you?  Or why you feel you have to point them out?  Are you a member of the APA?  

The kids wanted to know...nothing like the youthful keeners to keep us ALL on our toes, eh! I also pointed out these errors because the APA Standards Committee is in REVISION mode. Go have a look see yourself and see if you can find something that needs changing! It is a huge indepth publication and editing is an ongoing affair. The Chairmen of the committee just told me he found an 50 year old error...maybe APA should hold a contest on this, eh?

Tara

authenticfarm wrote:The owner of this forum has made choices that drove away key members. The result has been the death of this forum.

I am thankful for any contribution Higgins makes to this forum, temporary or otherwise.

As the owner of this forum I take great offense to this post Authentic, if you are not happy here leave is all I can say. I temporarily banned a member, she is more than welcome to rejoin, that was the only choice I made, if it drove away "key members" that did their best to stir up crap in my opinion they are more than welcome to stay away.
I have had a few very trying days here on the farm and do not like that post like this go on behind my back when I am too busy to read all these...
I appreciate all Tara's posts, and like Heather has pointed out the only issue I have ever had with Tara is the missing posts make the forum harder to follow and upset many members that take her information to learn from and so upsetting when it is taken away.

I am very aware of what the APA is tackeling at this time.  You are right, the standard is enormous. Just think of all the time and effort it has taken to publish such a undertaking, with such a small budget.  As a active member, I volunteer my time an way I can to help further the progress of the association.  After all, the APA is a non-profit organization ran by volunteers.  I highly doubt creating a contest, to point out the errors of former volunteers is productive, and furthermore speeks poorly to the character of any individual who would.

Very good points there bshelton. Every time the APA prints a new standard many many hours are spent by a number of people looking for errors and correcting them all volunteering their time. No human is perfect, even something as simple as someone at the printer inputting the info can cause a new small error. Thank you for taking the time to be a Member and putting time into the organization.

Heather

viczoe wrote:Very good points there bshelton. Every time the APA prints a new standard many many hours are spent by a number of people looking for errors and correcting them all volunteering their time. No human is perfect, even something as simple as someone at the printer inputting the info can cause a new small error. Thank you for taking the time to be a Member and putting time into the organization.

Heather

Indeed, its a huge job and very time consuming. Me too, am very grateful for those who put in their best efforts in the American Poultry Association and the SOP.
Piet

Does the Standard of Perfection have everything in one book, or is there one for chickens and another for ducks?

Every APA recognized breed of poultry and waterfowl are all in one book. You can order one though Clayton Botkin. But remember I also have a couple books here for you pertaining to call ducks.

Heather

That's great, thanks! I want to learn more about these little ducks. Are just the bantam ducks recognized? I was just wondering because I haven't seen the big ones at local shows. Maybe there just isn't anyone working with them locally?

Many breeds of large ducks, geese and turkeys in the SOP. Come to the Fraser Valley Show in the fall and you will see lots.

Heather

I don't get out much, but going to a large show would be so much fun. I would love to see all the varieties there!!