It's all about the last 3 days of the hatching

There are some things which have caused me to ponder on some stuff. In the past, prior to I would say, about the last four hatches, I have always been just a little to lazy to candle eggs when I place them in the quiet stage, which I have read about, which should be done during the last three days prior to hatching. always have candled around the 13th day only. Yes, for the last four or so hatches, I have candled differently. On about day 7 and then again around day 18. Then set eggs to lay on their sides, without any turning, as I have read, should be done. I am not new to incubating eggs, been doing that for about 10 years. Sometimes on that last candling, around day 18, I get nosey and with some eggs I candle and turn around, over, upside down, to try to get a glimpse more of what is going on. Never have seen much really, other than the heartbeat, so now feel it kind of a thing I won't bother with. But....on the other hand, I do like to do that. But on the other hand again, smiling, this turning the eggs up, down, sideways, as I have done in the past year or so, has made me ponder on stuff more. I have not had the best of hatches this past year, and many, many eggs, which have been candled on that last candling date, which showed from development, that they should have hatched, did not. Now I am pondering about pondering again on what has gone wrong and has drive me to distraction. Clearly, from this long post that I am embarking on, smiling that big smile. What I now ponder about is......the eggs that should have hatched out, that didn't, I wonder if they were the eggs that I had handled too much and turned up, down, around, to have a better look at. I can see absolutely no reason why all those eggs never hatched out. (many do during a hatch, but many don't, and it makes no sense whatsoever). So I am grasping at air, trying to figure out what has gone wrong and why. I am actually attributing these non-finishers to perhaps dieing because of too much turning to have a gander at what is going on inside. I know that eggs should not be turned after day 18. So, I guess my main action here, is to find out if anyone else can give some input as to what goes on during the last few days of the hatching of the embryo. Anyone read any studies on what goes on in the egg during those last few days. I think what I mean is...I think....not sure if I mean anything...but I think I mean this. Is there lots of moisture in the egg that perhaps if the egg is turned in different ways, such as I have been doing, that perhaps has drowned the poor little chicks? I just really don't know and am feeling very sorrowful about these chicks that should have hatched but don't. And as I said, no rhyme or reason, because I do have some chicks hatch. Some don't, as I said. So anyone???? Does anyone think that turning the eggs, such as I have with some, for noseyness, have an impact on the chick inside, for example, drowning? That is the only thing different that I have done in the past year, and sorely do wonder if this is the reason. Trying to figure out what has gone wrong with these little souls is driving me nuts. I am going to go back to the way I used to hatch chicks henceforth anyways. I will candle at day 7 to 13 and not after that. At day 18, I will not even candle the eggs, just put them down to lay on their side for that quiet time. I know that I used to have wonderful hatches, I am thinking my candling actions on the day 18 has been the culprit....thoughts anyone? Let's get a good discussion going on, smiling that big smile. Have a wonderful day, CynthiaM.

I am wondering what your humidity is at during day 1 - 18? If the humidity is too high the first 18 days then the eggs will not lose the correct amount of moisture and they will drown. Also are you opening the eggs that didn't hatch out? just curious if you noticed an excess of water or if really dry? With the weather changing it can also change your house humidity which wiil affect your incubating humidity.

I was thinking that I've never turned my eggs upside down, but remembered that many years ago some eggs did hatch out even though I had them set upside down, due to that they where very round eggs. I usually only check them at about 18 days, get ride of anything that doesn't look right and move into a hatcher.

edited to add a upside down egg hatch out

From day 18 to 22 I never touch the eggs or open the incubator. On day 22 if the chick is not fully hatched it is culled . Humidity plays a large part in the last days close to hactching, if you have been at this 10 plus years and only having problems lately something else may be wrong. Is this a problem in all your birds or just 1 breed ?

A little more background will help I think.  I am using an old, old as time itself, rotational arm sportsman.  The rotational arm is designed more for the larger eggs, like duck, goose and emu.  It has three long baskets on each rack and the eggs lay sideways, held in those baskets by hardware cloth with elastic bands, thick ones, or bungy cords.  It rotates from side to side 180 degrees several times a day.  I have an automatic humidity pan with the bucket on top of the incubator.  it holds perfect temperature and humidity as I require.  During the first 17 days I run the humidity at 35% and then up to 65% on the day 18 to 22.  As you do BobG, if there are any not hatched by day 22 those eggs are removed.  If they have not hatched by day 22, there is something not as strong nor healthy with the chicks is my belief and I don't want anything that is not the best of the best.  May seem cruel, but I breed for strength as well as other things.  I do not help chicks out, I found that in the past that they are inferior and die regardless.  If a chick has completely broken the shell and the membrane has dried, then I will break that membrane, but that would be a chick that had pipped and almost broken out on day 21.  Off topic a little bit.  This has occurred only in the past year's hatching, with both my breeds, cochins and buff orpingtons.  So not breed select in the issue.  There are two things different in my hatching this past year.  That is candling the eggs on day 18.  I have never done this before, because I admit, just a little lazy.  I will stop candling on day 18.  Period....I think that is the culprit, as I have been doing a whole lot of pondering.  I will not open that incubator door, as I have never before this past year of noseyness, after day 18.  Period.  One other thing that might be the culprit, but not sure of again, is that I moved the incubator to a different area in the back room of the house.  It is a huge room spanning the entire width of the house and about 15 feet in width.  I did move the incubator last year to a corner, and ensured that there was enough room for plenty of airflow away from the wall.  But I do wonder if perhaps there is not enough air, seems entirely unlikely as some chicks do hatch, just not great numbers.  I am going to do a test, and not candle period, after the first candling at day 7.  Then leave things as is, unopened until I remove chicks from the incubator.  That will be first testing.  If then I still have poor hatches, I will move the incubator for the next one.  I will incubate in smaller numbers until I have this figured out....Yes, smiling, I did open three of the eggs, fully developed chicks, dead, did not seem an overabundance of liquid.  I actually have no clue how much liquid should be in the egg during the last couple of days of hatch, but it did not seem overly much.  I think they drowned.  I think it was those eggs that I really took a close look at whilst candling and turned them around, upside down, that might be issue.  The next text hatch will hopefully tell a better tale.  I just wondered if anyone had any experience with my experience. If there are any other questions that anyone would like to have me answer, then I will gladly answer, as I need resolution to this problem.  I do have 7 beautiful little buff chicks bopping around (and four from the previous hatch) so not all is lost, just annoying that there wasn't 20, smiling that big smile.  Gotta get this figured out before the big sets begin.  The cochins are laying up a storm now, as well as the orpingtons, so I would like to get on things have a most wonderful day, CynthiaM.

I thought I would add a couple of pictures of my incubator, just for fun, it has three racks, at about 66 eggs per rack, so can incubate a whole lotta chicks

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I have read that in the 3 days before hatch the chick orients itself to hatch properly- maybe they are unable to do that properly if you re orient the egg. Also, have you calibrated your humidity sensor? are you sure it's reading correctly?
As a trial you could split some hatching eggs up, all of the same breed and as alike as possible. Mark half and candle those as you have been doing in the last three days.  Compare the hatch rates. If there is no difference then the problem is likely not due to the candling.  Then, do the same with another hatch without opening the incubator in the last 3 days and compare those hatch rates to the un-candled (is that a word??) eggs. Keep the set up and incubation as closely as possible to the first trial. If you get better hatch rates the second time, then the problem is likely due to opening the incubator. Hopefully I have explained that well enough to make sense...... the goal is to isolate the different factors so you can compare them.

I responded on the other forum but have a question for you. Did you hatch any naturally last year? If so how did the hens do % of hatch wise?

I am a newbie to incubating, but am hopelessly addicted to candling. My situation is different I guess cause it's a different incubator and also its call ducks I'm working with??? I was able to hatch out 7 calls last spring. I was thinking I had more luck this last spring because I was candling them more to see when their little bill went into the air pocket. I only let them stay like that for a short while til I poked a tiny pin hole through the shell to let air in so they didn't suffocate. ( calls have a hard time getting out of their shell) I always put them back in the position they were in.
I fussed over them more last spring and hatched 7.. The previous year I hatched 3.

Maybe what I'm doing isn't right now that I read all this, but it will be interesting to continue reading and learning. Good luck Cynthia

Well that's a very interesting set up you have there CynthiaM
your day 1 - 18 35% is a little low but not to much to get worried about. I hear alot of people doing less % and still doing OK, but really depends on location, elavation etc.  I keep mine at about 45% humidity  for the first 18 days (for chickens) Your hatch out humidity 65% seems to be good. I looks like you have one of those dial thermometer for keeping temps? If you don't already use one, a digital hydrometer is a must have IMO. makes life so much more easier, $10 -$15 at London Drugs.  I don't see your humidity pan inside at the top area in front of the fan, are you having your water pan setting somewhere else, or maybe just not in this pic because I did read you do use the humidity pan with the bucket on top of the incubator?

You seem to be not to far off on things, so I'd have to wonder if what your using to keep track of your temps and humidity is reading correctly.

I also didn't catch what your % was for hatching out as to not hatching out, just curious. OK....I re-read your post, got it 50% fertility rate, just tired from shovelly snow. Well 2 things either like BobG says maybe a problem with breeding stock vigor or and I have noticed this in the past, with winter breeders don't get the better higher nutrition (bugs, greens etc). and  fertility can drop. With Spring coming it's nice to have it all figured out.  

have a great day! Spring is on it's way

edited cause I see you had 20 eggs but only 7 chicks hatched out and 3 died in shell. So you had a 50% fertility rate.

Okanagan Peppers. The pictures of the incubator were taken a few years ago. Since that time I have the humidity pan on the top shelf with the automatic float in it. On top of the incubator sits a 5 gallon pail. Back in those old days, long ago, I didn't have the automatic waterer. I also use the pads from Berry Hill for sitting straight up in the humidity pan. I think I will get a new hygrometer/thermometer, mine is old and perhaps is not working correctly. I do have the dial thermometer that sits in the hold in the side of the sportsman, but it does not read humidity...although I do have the wick I could put on the thermometer, which is tried and true, I should try that for a test one day as well. I also have a thermometer/hygrometer from the states, that has a cord attached to it and and the probe suspends inside the incubator. I don't think it is accurate, so I don't use that. Going to get a new thermometer/hygrometer for sure and put new batteries in the old one and do a test to see if they are both reading correctly. I am suspecting still the candling of the eggs too much and now do wonder about humidity.....winter is very, very dry here, as it is in the Okanagan period. perhaps that is one of the main culprits. BobG was also mentioning some time ago to me about getting the birds for breeding onto a higher protein diet (I feed 18% layer pellets, always, all year around), gamebird feed. I am going to check out Armstrong this week and get the breeders onto a higher protein regardless. It could be winter vigor that is lacking, as well. So many variables. But one is...yes, BobG, going to move that incubator back to the original spot and not open the door after day 17, for any reason. Day 22 yes.....to remove chicks and any ones that have failed, this would be on the next test hatch. I really need to have good stuff going on this year. Last year's hatches were so crappy. Got lots of little chicks bopping around last year, but oh, so many wasted eggs, oh so many....that just did not. There is a possibility that being in that corner there is must plain and simply not enough fresh air, even though the unit has lots of space between the holes in the back and the wall. I thank you all for your comments, some I will implement and others, well, just a little too lazy to do any different kinds of test hatches, but I loved the input from each and every one of you. Two things....onto a higher protein diet (winter, not much bugs around especially so for sure, need to up that protein) , no opening the incubator after day 17, new hygrometer to ensure proper humidity (might try 45% by the way for the first 17 days), gamebird feeder, moving the incubator...those are my wishes and plans for this year....I need lots of chicks this year, smiling that big smile. Need to choose a whack of new breeders for 2016. My cochins are aging, three are 6 years old this spring and the others range from 1 year to 5 years old....time for new new, . Have some lovely gals from last year's hatchings, need to use them for the size they have brought and the yellow legs, but need to get on better lacing . Always something with those cochins , but never giving up have a most wonderful day, CynthiaM.

Personally I don'r think you have a problem with your humidity. I would leave that and just try the others things you mentioned. I'm 5 minutes to the Kelowna border so I'm way more dryer than where you are.
Best of luck on your 2015 hatches
and have a great day

edited to add.... just throughing this out there something that I do is another way of increaseing protein and nutrients in your breeder flock while on layer pellets is to sprout BOSS. There's a whole lot of other bennifits as well such as increasing the fertillity.
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and here is a photo of my sprouts that are ready for harvest......
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