chick legs problems..pic.

**ADVISE PLEASE**i seem to be having a problem here, i have never had this before and i cant find to much on the internet, i have had to cull one already for this... this am, now it appears this is the second one that has hatched like this, they hatch with their legs straight infront of them and they cant seem to walk??? anyone else have this before? is it a temp/ humidity thing? the temp is 37.5/ 37.6 and humidity is 55% or is it cause my hens have only started laying for a month or so?? the rest of the chicks seem fine it these 2 so far??  

this isnt the best pic, but you get the idea, they are straight infront of them  and no i am not one to spoon feed or bandage up, it never seems to work i just cull the weak ones, as sad as it is, i just would like to know whats going on?

I had some last year like that also.  I tried to bandage them and place them in a cup to hold their legs in place but out of 8 chicks only one straightened up.  The rest I ended up culling them.  I have been told it could be temp issues or nutritional issues in the hens.  Not sure if this really helps you out of not.

I forgot to mention, with the plastic trays in the brinsea, I found I needed to put something to keep them from slipping if they had much room to be on the tray like the one in the pic. That stopped the leg issues also. I put down an old rag. I did this after seeing one little chick slip on the tray and end up with legs going straight out sideways.

My first two hatches last year were riddled with leg problems, I had temperature issues and vitamin issues - and I had many hatching issues including messed up legs and walking troubles. I'm sure some of it was temperature related. But I also didn't know till much later in the year that we don't have selenium in the soil/water here, it's not added to the feed as a mineral, so my chickens were deficient in selenium. I had sent a batch of mortalities (I feeze them - here you can take up to 8 as a single submission) to the provincial vet and no disease was found, which led me to nutrition and it was a chance conversation with a pig farmer that I discovered the info about selenium. And my food was too old by the time I got it here on the island, so also vitamin e and B deficient as those vitamins degrade fast. That combination, because they are all inter-related and needed for a good healthy neurological system, I know affected my first hatches, and those very first birds that still live here are my "indicator" birds (they become a bit un-thrifty), meaning that I have to bump up the vitamins as they are very affected still by that deficiency. Bump up the vitamins, and they are fine.

You shouldn't have a selenium deficiency where you are, but if you are buying your chicken feed in bulk and not using it up within a few weeks, it could be the vitamin e and b, which leads to selenium deficiency as they are needed for it's uptake. Very complicated to figure out, no help discovering it by the provincial vet - though when I spoke to him after he agreed it definitely was likely the cause - took me hours and days of reading. Simple solutions - if that's what is causing your problem. It was for me. I have not had any leg issues in chicks since supplementing the flock with selenium (very small amounts), human grade B vitamins and the occasional mash with some vitamin e added. Food for thought.

Thanks guys, I am going to add some vitamins to my water for the gurls, hopefully that will help, its so weird, the power did go out during incubation for a couple hrs, I did candle, they were all moving still, so not sure if the power outage would have had somethign to do with it...? I am gonna add vitamines to water for now on though. Even though I give lots of scraps ect... Also I did have paper towl on the tray, but I thougt maybe that was causing it so I took it out but this one still has it...

triplejfarms wrote:Thanks guys, I am going to add some vitamins to my water for the gurls, hopefully that will help, its so weird, the power did go out during incubation for a couple hrs, I did candle, they were all moving still, so not sure if the power outage would have had somethign to do with it...? I am gonna add vitamines to water for now on though. Even though I give lots of scraps ect...  Also I did have paper towl on the tray, but I thougt maybe that was causing it so I took it out but this one still has it...

The nutrition expert at Top Shelf, where I get my feed now, said when the birds are stressed to grind up a human vita b and add it to the water. I put a vita b and a 200mg selenium diluted in the water (5 gallons) once a week and a full day of watering with it for each pen. If they are stressed, like right now with repeated raccoon visits, I increase the vita b to more if not every day, but not selenium. And you likely don't have to add selenium unless your area doesn't have it. That's in addition to pol-vite. The vita e is trickier - you pretty much have to lay out the feed in the feeder and squirt some vita e from capsules onto the food, or add it to a moistened mash and feed it in a mash. Last year i added it to sprouts, but I have not had time this year for sprouting.

You may be able to answer your own question about the nutrition - if it is related to vitamin B and e (and selenium) it is often reversible quickly, within a matter of days and sometimes hours. If you pump your little leg guy with some vitamins (b in the water and a vita e from a capsule either force-fed to him or sprinkled on his food) he may recover quickly - and you'll have your answer. Once I discovered my problem last year, I had some of my 'sick' chickens recover within hours, some took days, some never recovered but did improve on high doses of vitamins but would fall off again as soon as the vitamins were removed - they weren't able to store the vitamins or the deficiency too prolonged to be effectively remedied by supplements - I had two that eventually had a one way trip to the provincial lab as live birds, and again no disease (yeah) so diet related - they were from the very first group I hatched, the ones that had the longest time without the selenium/vita e/vita b added - they were probably 6? months by the time I figured out what was going on and started supplementing, and 1 year when I took the two live to the lab.

I know folks are scared of the provincial labs, but I found it invaluable for ruling out what was causing me problems. Without testing my birds, I never would have been able to eliminate disease and thereby pinpoint nutrition. My local vet swore it was Mereks, and also told me how to get the birds to the lab to confirm what it was, and I was so thankful I did or I would still be having problems because I would have gone with Merek's and assumed all the sick birds I would still be getting would have been from disease, not nutrition. Without the conversation with the pig farmer, I never would have suspected selenium either. I still don't know why they don't add it to the feed here on the islands, where we know we don't have selenium in the soil or water. I'm sure there are many, many, many out there with the same problem.

I found papertowel was too slippery still. I tried that also, but found that it was better to put either an old towel or some of that drawer stuff that does not allow things to slip very easily works best.

I used some of that mesh stuff that you put underneath throw rugs - just trim to fit. Worked great!

well i put a rag in there for the time being, usualy i use a ruff pappertowel, havent had this issue, i just went out and added some vitamins to the water i hope this will solve the problem, its weird it only seems to be the choc orps, not the frizzles...

I have found that lowering the incubating temperature by 0.3 of a degree on my Brinsea took care of all sorts of feet issues.

islandgal99 wrote:
 I know folks are scared of the provincial labs, but I found it invaluable for ruling out what was causing me problems.  Without testing my birds, I never would have been able to eliminate disease and thereby pinpoint nutrition.  

This is seriously interesting topic. I guess we need to get our soil tested to see what might be deficient, or water test? I want to find out now. Please tell me your thoughts on why people get scared of provincial labs. I am wondering if it is because if something turns up in your birds that is a nasty nasty they have you in their records? I am always suspicious of government keeping information on people, I understand it but at the same time I find it irritating. Why do they need to know how many sacks of corn I buy?? and where I live.  

Schipperkesue wrote:I have found that lowering the incubating temperature by 0.3 of a degree on my Brinsea took care of all sorts of feet issues.

Yup. Same here.

TripleJ, when you look are your chicks hock joints, do they look red at all? When you try to bend the leg at the hock, does it bend? Does it feel stiff, unmoveable?

i will try that as well sue, Tb i just grabbed one, and yes the hock does appear a bit more redish than the other part of the legs, but they are bendable?

My first instinct was to say it was feed related to the hens. This time of year can be particularly difficult as they are not free ranging and getting topped up that way.
I know in Australia there was a 'breeder' feed that would help top up breeding birds. Remember, layer is for birds to produce eggs, not necessarily for fertility or vitality of chicks. Worth researching a little if you are going to hatch this time of year.

i do give tons of table scraps, i also bake hen cakes/ scratch blocks for them with extra protein/ alfalfa pellets ect...i just dont know, i have #4 that hatched now appears to be the same??! this is ridiculus, its none of the frizzle. cochins just the choc orps??? they all get the same feed ect, i usualy do start incubating in january, i am just lost i have not changed anything i have done in the last 5 years, this is the first time i have seen such a thing?

 another pic coopslave i am goona do some reasearch see if i cant find a breeder feed here

Could just be a genetic thing you have to battle a bit with them too. They are a breed new to you aren't they? Have you tried giving them a day or two to get stronger?
Seems strange it is just the chocolate and the other breeds are fine. They may be a breed with different needs (like temp or feed) and you will have to feel them out a bit.

You could be right coopslave, going to try another test hatch with them in a couple weeks after I give the girls vitamins ect, see what happens... :/

There has been many topics discussing requirements of the poultry, selenium came up as well. Is there selenium in chick starter? I know that laying pellets have added selenium, along with many other important vitamins and minerals. This is most dismaying when one has chicks that are just not right. My first thought is that the floor (that mesh) is too slippery. I would get some of the shelf liner from the dollar store, wherever, it is sold everywhere. Everything that I hatch has that shelf liner used. It is very useful, is non-slip and is so cheap it can be considered disposable. Or you can wash it. I think the chicks have slipped and caused something like that. But then again, it could be vitamin deficiency for sure. I would first off, get something that is less likely for a chick to slip on. Nutrition of the hens that lay eggs is premium. I am sure that you feed your birds well. But so many studies show that having hens in absolute prime condition for gathering eggs from will give you the healthiest of chicks. I am not saying that your hens are deficient, but is that a possibility? As mentioned, it is winter, and the birds just don't get what they can like they can when free ranging in the warmer seasons. Not even necessarily free ranging, but boy, even any bug that comes into the chickens' area is fair game. I am sorry this is happening, and I hope you can find out what the problem is. Annoying as get out for sure. Good luck, keep us posted on your findings and have a wonderful day, CynthiaM.

Allow me to be contrary, but I feel if a chick made it out of the shell on its own, then calling it weak is not correct.

Deformed is not weak. There are all sorts of things that can go wrong inside an egg and not all of them can be deemed a genetic weakness. Some of it is just plain bad luck.

As to what causes this, if you ever get it nailed down, call me. I had leg problems this year too. Is it feed? Is it genetics? Is it temperature? Is it that you were holding your tongue the wrong way? There is NO DEFINITVE ANSWER and I doubt you are going to find one. The answer is that there is no answer.

Now...if you choose to cull rather than fiddle around with splints and bandages and voodoo cures, that is your prerogative. But sometimes (not very often!) if given a few days, these issues do resolve. My philosophy is that it took 21 days crinkled in a ball to make the chick. If it takes a few days to unkink, it should be allowed that chance. While I do personally splint, fiddle and drink voodoo cures, I do have a time limit on gimpiness. If there is no improvement in 3 days, then I have done my part to allow for recovery and the chick has done his part to try and recover and it's just not going to work out.

Frankly, since so many of us seem to have had this same problem this year, my vote goes to astrological interference. (by Monsanto!)

i have culled 2 chicks, i am leaving the other 2 for 2 days as you say uno, but no i wont splint/ spoon feed... LOl its horrible to watch them tho their tiny little feet flailing around in front of them as they are going nowhere... :/ i hate seeing it. =(

CynthiaM wrote:There has been many topics discussing requirements of the poultry, selenium came up as well.  Is there selenium in chick starter?  I know that laying pellets have added selenium, along with many other important vitamins and minerals.  This is most dismaying when one has chicks that are just not right.  My first thought is that the floor (that mesh) is too slippery.  I would get some of the shelf liner from the dollar store, wherever, it is sold everywhere.  Everything that I hatch has that shelf liner used.  It is very useful, is non-slip and is so cheap it can be considered disposable.  Or you can wash it.  I think the chicks have slipped and caused something like that.  But then again, it could be vitamin deficiency for sure.  I would first off, get something that is less likely for a chick to slip on.  Nutrition of the hens that lay eggs is premium.  I am sure that you feed your birds well.  But so many studies show that having hens in absolute prime condition for gathering eggs from will give you the healthiest of chicks.  I am not saying that your hens are deficient, but is that a possibility?  As mentioned, it is winter, and the birds just don't get what they can like they can when free ranging in the warmer seasons.  Not even necessarily free ranging, but boy, even any bug that comes into the chickens' area is fair game.  I am sorry this is happening, and I hope you can find out what the problem is.  Annoying as get out for sure.  Good luck, keep us posted on your findings and have a wonderful day, CynthiaM.

Selenium is a provincially regulated mineral. Apparently many years back, livestock were overdosed on selenium by adding too much, so now it is regulated and feed makers are limited as to what they can add, and here they can't add selenium because of provincial legislation, and the legislation is NOT based on local needs. Top Shelf in Duncan, who I have found to be the best foods (IMO) on the island here, are not permitted to add it as needed even though it is not found in our local soils or water. It is not added to chick food, or grower, only the layer ration at top shelf, and even that has only been since this year. I had spoken in length with the nutritionist at top shelf upon discovering the problem and trying to find a solution, and then not long after it was added to layer ration. Unfortunately it causes some long lasting effects in youngsters if it's not in enough quantity. I was amazed how quickly the poults respond to the vitamin therapy when deficient in most cases.

Pol-vite does not have selenium in it, and if your bag has been open for a while the vitamin B and E will have degraded...they have a very short shelf life once exposed to air.

I believe the commercial meaties would not live long enough to show most of the problems, and leg problems with meatie chicks/joints/legs would be easily written off to being genetic. Very easy to miss there. And with commercial layers only living 1 year and being moved on, and considering the living conditions, so long as mortalities are not disease related, it would be easy to miss there also. In the heritage birds however, where the boys live longer and the girls are laying for us longer, a vitamin deficiency definitely would have time to manifest and show it's ugly head. That's my theory anyhow. Like I said, it was a pig farmer - where animals would live longer than most chickens, boy chickens anyhow - who clued me into what might be going on in my birds and led me to the solution.

Regarding running out and testing soil, etc...talk to some local farmers - doesn't have to be chicken farmers. Sheep or pig farmers might be ideal as mineral deficiencies would cost them huge $$$ until identified, and they would want to know what's going on and may be happier to share stories with a heritage chicken farmer. Here it was a pig farmer who helped me...and thank goodness he did as selenium deficiency in pigs is also bad and causes a curly coat disease combined with un-thriftyness so I'm able to be pro-active with the piggies too. Talk to your LOCAL feed makers, they will also have an idea of what's in your soils/water in your area. No need to re-invent the wheel and pay for a bunch of tests - someone nearby will already have the info you need.

TripleJ, you might find this helpful.
http://www.thepoultrysite.com/articles/1278/red-hocks-in-dayold-chicks-or-poults

Both Sue & I with our work with houdans have come across more than a few leg issues. One is Red Hocks. If you do a search, you'll come across a lot of helpful info on the condition.

TripleJ, are these crippled chicks particularly big? I noticed that sometimes the heavier chicks seem to have more leg trouble than the lighter ones. Have you noticed a size correlation?

Thanks TB! I read the link, do you think my humidity is still to high? I have it at 44 percent til hatch day around 55 percent? Uno these are bantys and not to large from what I can see :/

What is the temperature on your Brinsea? I found their built display to read a little high.. I have three spot checks and all give me the same temp in the incubator, all are a little high.

I have a theory about these wonderful new automated machines of ours. They keep the temperature and humidity so steady. Maybe too steady. For goodness sake, you never even have to open the door. The eggs never cool or loose humidity. If your temp and humidity are a little off, it stays that way for the whole incubation period. No variations when the door opens.

I had better results with feet after two events occurred. One was my humidity pump broke and I had to open the machine to fill by hand. The other was when I found the digital read out was too high. I calibrated the Brinsea, plus I lowered the temperature again .3 degrees to correspond with what I had been reading about higher temperatures.