Corn=fat=bad?

In another thread, possible changes to feed ingredients was being discussed. I mentioned that the corn in our locally made scratch had been greatly reduced. Dark Wing Duck pointed out that corn has limited nutritional value and adds fat.

And there it is. The eff word. FAT.

I would like to go on record as saying that the only place fat is bad is in a bikini. But when it comes to my animals, I WANT THEM FAT!

Why? To me fat says health, it says abundance, it says good stewardship. When I see a herd of skinny animals it says everything about the farmer and I am NOT going to be that farmer. I want my animals healthy and a body that can take extra calories and lay down a layer of fat is doing just fine, thank you very much! I do not hold with the modern fad, and it is a fad, to have lean animals. If I want lean on my plate, I will eat a workboot. But that is NOT the finished product I am aiming for. I want my table animals to have lived a great life of abundance and happiness with their face in the trough.

Before there is a raft of posts about the evil of obesity, understand with utter clarity I am not talking about feeding animals until they are crippled blobs. That is as much an abuse as underfeeding. Animals NEED fat. Watching my horse Lily, who I find alarminlgy skinny, head into winter looking that way has me giving her supplements, worming, making posts and wringing my hands in worry. Lack of fat will be harmful to her if we have a hard winter. Fat on your animals is money in the bank, insurance against upcoming hardships. That's how I see it. I know most people do not share my view. But I say, let them eat corn! I do not want thin, lean and nasty on my plate or in my field.

This becomes difficult when trying to balance the potential crippling problems of meatbirds against trying to get the most meat for your food dollar. I have both overfed and underfed my birds and I will also go on record saying the underfeeding experiment was a disaster! Worst chickens ever! Overfeeding leads to earlier deaths in the case of meatbirds. There is a balance. But since my preference is to have a plump carcass, while I limit the protein content of the grower pellets, I also make sure there is corn, simply because it does exactly what Dark Wing Duck says it does. It adds fat. Finger licking good fat!

Thin may be in, but it is not how I want my animals. And when it comes to putting that tasty finish on a chicken, corn does a pretty good job of it in my humble opinion.

I always feed more corn in the winter as it does add that fat layer and helps the birds stay warm. For showing purposes I never feed corn to white birds other than in the first weeksand espically not when the birds are setting there final feathers as it turns them yellow and though hatch to summer I try to make sure not to feed my show birds corn as I want them hard bodied but not fat but corn is one of the best feed additives for those long winter nights.

Heather

Poor Lily, she is probably still regaining the muscle she lost in her previous situation and through her pregnancy to have any extra calories to store as fat! But I am with you Uno, I always wanted my horses going into winter just a slight bit fat.

Now the dogs are another matter. A slightly skinny growing puppy is definitely better. Extra weight on those growing bones is detrimental to structural development. Here good nutrition and not abundance of food is the way to go.

In my older dogs I want them just a little bit fatter. Fat provides that extra cushion in case a health issue pops up and the animal loses weight.

In me... well, we won't go there!

Sue

I feed corn all year a bit less in the summer months ( or days ), I find the birds fare much better with it and as for nutritional value I would have to look that up, when I imported birds in the past they had to be quarentened in the USA for 45 days and the only food they were fed was corn ( I never understood why ) but they all survived and seemed healthy.

Good post Uno. I believe in a certain amount of fat, I have lots of it, smiling. In the wintertime I increase the corn I give to my birds. I actually buy the corn in a bag alone, and feed them scratch too. Corn helps to keep them warmer, with fat in the body and warmth from the effect of the corn. They get a good deal of corn in the wintertime, I totally agree with that. I buy cracked corn, tried the flatted, and it seemed a little too large. I know what you mean about the hen scratch and the lessened amount of corn in it, think the change occurred early this spring. I am pretty sure that last year there was copious amounts of corn in the scratch, but not this year. I like a little fat on everything, including my dog, smiling. Good post. Have a wonderful and great day, CynthiaM.

I feed corn in the winter too. They get a little this time of year just as a special treat cause they love it, but not too much for the layers.
The dual purpose boys I am going to eat are getting some corn now. I like a bit of fat in the birds I am going to eat (I am with you on that Uno!) and I personally like the flavour corn adds to a bird. Corn adds a lot of energy and that is what allows the body to lay down a bit of fat.
Heather, that is interesting about the show birds. I knew that corn can `yellow`a white bird a bit, or add a tinge to a white skinned bird. I never thought of it making them a bit soft bodied for showing. I know some people add it to yellow up the legs a bit but maybe that isn`t such a good idea?
Our other animals we try not to have to fat. The cutting horses stay sounder if they are not carrying around a tub of lard. The working dogs don`t get as hot, they are a bit fat for them right now as they are not working much! The animals we are working lots we try to keep a bit more lean, but hard.
I am with you about growing puppies Sue. A little leaner is so much better for them. But I have to admit the old boy running around has a nice, round look about him!
Cynthia I kind of do the same thing as you. I buy scratch and then I buy extra corn and black sunflower seeds and add that to the mix. Everyone down in Aus feeds the black sunflower seeds. They love em!

Coopslave I only add corn to the diet starting when the birds are about 2-3 weeks old and that is to set the leg color in the yellow legged birds, so they get it for a time. Also to much corn causes purple barring in some colors which is not good. Because corn does make birds fat, fat does not feel good on a bird that is supposed to be hard bodied like the games. They do get a little in the scratch feed which is fine. But I am very careful with it in birds who have not set there final feathers, but by winter all birds are feathered in and the feeding of more corn is fine which is when I add more. Fat is fine,as my body can atest too but to much given at the wrong time on exhibtion poultry can effect condition as far as making them sloppy feeling and can effect the feathers.

Heather

Thanks for this post Uno. When I butchered some of my cockerels a few weeks back I was pleased to see a little layer of fat. I felt, well proud, didn't even know why. I thought about it for awhile and just decided that it was a sign that they had lived the good life. Lots of fresh air, sunshine, exercise and good food. A little layer of fat for me, in my mind, showed that what I was doing was good. We ate one of those cockerels, I made Coq au vin, OMG was it ever good. Was it the extra flavor of fat or maybe the wine (LOL) whatever, I don't want to change what I am doing except maybe start making up my own food ... this of course leads me to a different post.

XOX Monika

I just have to chime in here.
As a cook, fat is good, it is the conduit of flavour. (don't tell your cardiologist that) Pork has become very lean over the years because people demand it that way but it has been at the expense of flavour. The fat on a chicken makes for good juices and gravy, you can always drain off the excess at the end of cooking.
Lets face it we grow our animals to eat, at least chickens and port ect. In those cases I have to agree fat is good but like all things moderation, I advocate plump and juicy not obese and sick.
I am a big advocate of whole milk if you have a farm source as you can add calories without the colouration problem on the meat. It may even be more nutritious I don't know about that.
Showing birds is a whole different thing, as are dogs and horses. I bow to those with much greater knowledge than me in those cases, but for meat animals I agree with uno plump is better.
I make my own scratch and have gone back and forth with corn, steam rolled (mould and size can be a problem), cracked (dust can be a problem) and corn only as a treat in summer because they get free range and I have heard in the heat of summer extra fat can cause problems for them keeping cool.
For my animals they will definitely be fattened up on corn prior to culling, but as for the rest I want to keep them at healthy weights.

I to agree that a layer of fat on a dinner table bird is very welcomed here as well. Especially when it is found on a heritage roo! And yes, I too add a bit more corn to the flocks diet in the fall and through the winter months and my meat birds also get a bit of corn for the last week and a half of their lives for more flavour. However, corn should not be thought of as "the" most important food source for any animal! And you should feed your fat chicks differently than you feed your layers! In fact, some people consider corn to be the worst possible feed for all animals!!! Do you remember "Food Inc."?

All I was trying to point out in the other thread was that if you give your growing broilers too much fat (corn) and not enough protein grains such as peas, lintels, wheat, etc..., you will not get those big robust, fast growing, Franken birds we expect to have at 8 weeks of age!! You have to remember these birds are growing babies! Not some old layer or rooster who's days are done and you are now trying to fatten up to make coq au vin out of.

Worship corn all you want, I'll stick to a more balanced diet for my birds and enjoy a dressed out 5 lbs. bird at 8 weeks of age!

Keep in mind for replacement and breeding stock too much fat causes issues with fertility, longevity and birthing/laying issues.

I know with our replacement females for our cattle herd we perfer growth and muscle developement than fat. Our man goal with our cattle is longevity, health, and easy of breeding and birthing.

Also in animals that are destine to be eaten still need to develope good muscle before they put on the desired layer of fat.

I agree that some fat is needed for flavour. However, too much is essentially wasted feed.

I didn't know that stuff about corn. Very informative.

^ Me neither. This whole topic has been informative. For instance I had no idea feeding corn could change the colour of some bird's feathers. Or legs even! Are there any other foods/things that also do this?!


And where does everyone buys their cracked corn? Every time I ask about some (be it at Peavey, the Co-op, or even feed stores) I’m told they don't stock it anymore. I’d really like to find a source of cracked corn for my fall/winter scratch mix.

FLicker Chick, it is quite amazing how you can tell what goes into an animal by the colour and amount of the fat. Grain fed beef has different fat colour than grass fed. I didn't know about corn affecting leg colour and feather colour though.

When my mom made her own butter, in winter, when the cows ate hay, the butter was practically white. If I remember correctly, the summer butter, with cows on grass made yellow butter.

viczoe wrote:Coopslave I only add corn to the diet starting when the birds are about 2-3 weeks old and that is to set the leg color in the yellow legged birds, so they get it for a time.
Heather

Now this Heather, I find most interesting. The buckcyes should have yellow shanks. Wondering if they should be getting a little extra corn. They tend to have more willow colour legs as they are maturing, now 11 months old. I have youngsters that are 8 weeks, any comment on this, or perhaps I should just not ask this advice. Wondering for surely, I would love to set some yellow leg colours, wonder too, when it is too late, or if it is ever too late to set the leg colour. Beautiful days, CynthiaM.

Very true Uno. Two years ago when my SIL and I processed my extra roosters (a first for me) I remember their fat being an orangey yellow colour. I wonder if that was from all the grass/bugs they ate? This was pre-fox attack when I had no pens and just free-ranged.

Good Morning Cindi I only feed well ground corn to very young birds for about 1 month when I add to their starter, too much beyond that in birds that are setting new feathers will cause purple barring, but I would suggest you feed a bit more corn in their grain feeds if you give some each day just don't give them all corn maybe 35%. Also the greatest thing that you can do to see if there is a differance in the leg color is to feed them fresh green grass every couple days if they are not free ranging, if they are free ranging and are on grass I would say there leg color is what it is. I have my gas push mower and bagger and I mow fresh grass for each pen of birds every other day as this helps with that leg color for yellow legged breeds.

Sorry Uno a little off topic!! Bad Bad Bad me

Heather

CynthiaM wrote:

viczoe wrote:Coopslave I only add corn to the diet starting when the birds are about 2-3 weeks old and that is to set the leg color in the yellow legged birds, so they get it for a time.
Heather

Now this Heather, I find most interesting. The buckcyes should have yellow shanks. Wondering if they should be getting a little extra corn. They tend to have more willow colour legs as they are maturing, now 11 months old. I have youngsters that are 8 weeks, any comment on this, or perhaps I should just not ask this advice. Wondering for surely, I would love to set some yellow leg colours, wonder too, when it is too late, or if it is ever too late to set the leg colour. Beautiful days, CynthiaM.

CynthiaM there is a very good discussion about willow legs here:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It is more about Chanteclers, but it doesn`t matter the breed the genetic causes are similar. I won`t hijack this thread about willow anymore, but if you want to talk more about it start another thread. I am interested in willow as well.

Viczoe, never a need to apologize about off topic. Topics go where the people need them to go..and it's all good! I love finding out new stuff. It's always a surprise to me considering my immense brilliance and that I know practically everything there is to know about everything in the entire world. So when I learn something new it truly is astonishing.

coopslave wrote:

CynthiaM wrote:

viczoe wrote:Coopslave I only add corn to the diet starting when the birds are about 2-3 weeks old and that is to set the leg color in the yellow legged birds, so they get it for a time.
Heather

Now this Heather, I find most interesting. The buckcyes should have yellow shanks. Wondering if they should be getting a little extra corn. They tend to have more willow colour legs as they are maturing, now 11 months old. I have youngsters that are 8 weeks, any comment on this, or perhaps I should just not ask this advice. Wondering for surely, I would love to set some yellow leg colours, wonder too, when it is too late, or if it is ever too late to set the leg colour. Beautiful days, CynthiaM.

CynthiaM there is a very good discussion about willow legs here:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It is more about Chanteclers, but it doesn`t matter the breed the genetic causes are similar. I won`t hijack this thread about willow anymore, but if you want to talk more about it start another thread. I am interested in willow as well.

OK, Coopslave, you've done it, I will make a post about willow, and not the trees, smiling that big smile. Beautiful days, CynthiaM.

[quote="viczoe" I have my gas push mower and bagger and I mow fresh grass for each pen of birds every other day as this helps with that leg color for yellow legged breeds.

Sorry Uno a little off topic!! Bad Bad Bad me

Heather [/quote]

Good morning back right at you Heather. I don't think that this topic has really strayed too much, and as Uno said, all information is good, I don't mind when I have a topic and someone goes off on it, it is all OK. Knowledge is powerful, and however we get it, a boon to our lives.

I was shocked when you said that you feed cut grass to the birds. I really was. I was always of the total impression that grass can bung up the crop and steered clear of it with feeding to my chickens. EXCEPT.....I do give my chickens many times clumps of grass that I pull out of the ground, with the roots attached, all the time, so they can pick off pieces of grass. I am presuming that the grass you cut for the birds is short, well pretty short, so that if they are picking on it the grass leaf length is short anyways, so that makes me being to ponder this. And I can totally see that it would be a good thing to give short cut grass to the birds. I think of the mountains of grass that I have composted over the years. But that was all good. Back in my old life, the birds all free ranged all the time and had copious amounts of grass anyways, if they wanted it, so no need really to feed. But here....a different story, the grass is not plentiful, there are weeds and seeds and alfalfa and barley, everything under the sun, but actual grass is not in plentiful supply. But...my Daughter does mow her lawn about every three days, so guess what, gonna ask her to put the grass in a barrow and I'll feed it to my chickens. She doesn't want the chickens in her yard on the grass that is so beautiful and nice, and we all know why, smiling that big smile.

Every day all my birds, including little ones that are in the adult pens, get a few handfuls of scratch, which has corn in it, so no abundance of corn here that may cause purple barring in the feathers (what the dickens is that anyways? Does it stay with the bird, or is that temporary until another set of feathers come in, just curious, speak please). Beautiful days, too, CynthiaM.

Good morning and yes I do feed cut grass. I only feed it fresh so I go out with my mower with bagger and push and cut till I have my mower bag full and then throw it immedialely into the pens. The birds love rooting though it and eating bits and bites any any bugs they might find. My birds always have grit in their feed and I have never had a problem with impaction touch wood. Might not work for eveyone but don't think it's any different than going out and hand pulling grass fot them like some folks do. I guess I am a bit lazy and so many birds had to go mechanical. But never let it sit even for any length of time as it ferments and moulds and could be deadly.

Heather

When I did crop surgery on that impacted hen, yes I did pull out grass. But it was LONG and very dry. I could see the mechanical problem she ran into.

Instead of the grass being pliable and green and able to break with that snap and twist motion they do when pecking/eating, it just went in whole. The hen started to swallow, the long, dry grass was tough and she couldn't break it, so just kept swallowing until the entire length was wound around inside her crop. Instead of learning from this, she went in for more of the same. I would guess that the IQ of a hen is probably not high.

I would say anyting green and crisp will not be a problem. Anything short will not be a problem. It is the long, dry tough stuff that gets like strands of rope that are going to plug things up. Late fall free ranging poses more crop threat, depending on the state of your vegetation.

Uno you are right about the hard long grass. I only pick the most lush green pesticide free areas that I usually keep just for this purpose. We spray our fruit trees so no grass comes from those areas. The mower chops the grass up well and I will mow an area about 1 time per week or so that way you get the new more tender growth.

Heather