Disease Prevention

Disease prevention. It's something we each try and do our best to practice it. I feel it is an on going and always changing process. As we learn, become educated, we grow. Sometimes methods we used in the past to treat disease, we learn may not have been what was best, we learn what works better and we take from that and change. This means too, our opinions also change.

Some subjects, like the use of anti-biotics to treat CRDs, are extremely hot. MG is another. Where I am on FB, the topic of vaccination is another hot topic. Discussion of these topics are many. Many different view points. Opinions. Some are like me, in that we believe that effecting change is better by open discussion and hearing all sides. Others, like some disussions I have had recenlty, involve people who have lost their flocks and are angry about it. They believe only ranting down their opinion of a 100% kill of a suspect flock is the only answer.

There are too many people now seeing poultry as a money maker. Under the current laws, you can operate as a private hatchery and offer "Heritage" poultry. It's a grey area as when the laws were written, hatcheries offering stock to be used either as pets or for preservation of heritage breeds, didn't exist. Here in AB, best of my knowledge, a hatchery is only recognized as such if operates commercially. A private one offering rare breeds for non commercial use fall into a grey area.

Then there are people like me. We consider our birds as pets. We don't necessarily sell birds. Yes, we do use anti-biotics like Tylan when a bird is sick. We do so no differently than if any other family pet needs treatment for an illness. Some of us do know that when we treat a bird that we possibly may be creating a carrier of a disease like MG. Many of us, myself included, know and do this.

Then there is the vaccination debate. Should Canada adopted a universal vaccination program for backyard flocks? Should we use the "Herd" method in that if we all vaccinate for ILT, AI, MG, ect...then fear of disease spread will be contained cause if we all have our shots, we are all safe. Should we practice the old method of "If it sneezed, kill it!" to prevent the spread of MG.

I believe change is coming.  Provinces are begining to recognized that there is a need to look into disease prevention in regards to backyard flocks. That maybe bringing in testing for disease should be stepped up, especially if someone files a complaint that a bird they brought into their flock brought along disease that resulted in their flock dying off. The quaratinee for 30 days doesn't always hold true for those diseases the require stress as a trigger. Maybe time has come to start taking more serious the use of anti-biotics like Tylan to treat CRD like symptoms  Especially if we also want to present ourselves as business operators who sell poultry?
Maybe those of us who use anti-biotics as a treatment on a sick bird should ask if we are doing the right thing?

Maybe it's time to step up in how we see and treat disease as being pro-active rather than re-active?
Because the alternative is government doing it for us and I don't think many here want that.

I haven't seen the conversations you are referring to on facebook, but I’m wondering if that background discussion might make it clearer about the kind of feedback you’re looking for here.

toybarons wrote:
There are too many people now seeing poultry as a money maker. Under the current laws, you can operate as a private hatchery and offer "Heritage" poultry. It's a grey area as when the laws were written, hatcheries offering stock to be used either as pets or for preservation of heritage breeds, didn't exist. Here in AB, best of my knowledge, a hatchery is only recognized as such if operates commercially. A private one offering rare breeds for non commercial use fall into a grey area.

I don't think there is anything wrong if people are able to earn some money through selling chicks or hatching eggs. Its not something new, this has been going on in our country for over a century. And for some, it's a way to make their chickens earn their keep. Having to continually subsidize the costs of keeping a flock makes chicken keeping a non-sustainable practice. Although this may not matter to some who think of it as a hobby or just keep a few for pets.

But as you mention, the typical backyarders who sell chicks or hatching eggs don't fall under the same regulations as a commercial hatchery.

I guess the bottom line for me is: regardless of whether people keep chicken as pets or keep them as livestock, I think flock owners should have access to the medications and vaccines needed to help keep their flocks safe and healthy.

Alberta Agriculture and Rural Development is hosting a series of meetings for discussion of these very issues. Maybe you saw the invitation on ACE forum, Toybarons? I'm wondering if those meetings have sparked some concerns about government involvement. I was not able to attend the ones closest to my location, but I think it’s a very timely topic and I’m glad to know they are seeking input from us small backyard chicken-keepers. I'll be waiting to hear what comes out of it all.

KathyS wrote:I haven't seen the conversations you are referring to on facebook, but I’m wondering if that background discussion might make it clearer about the kind of feedback you’re looking for here.

I'm on several FB groups. Most of the groups we are on together, don't really want to talk about MG prevention. They either politely advise people the talk will be shut down because their forum isn't about disease prevention but rather the "Fun side of enjoying chickens!" or it becomes a two sided argument of those wanting to take a pro-active side to disease prevention and those saying why rock the boat. Frankly, the one group we are both on, all honsesty, I don't think they would want to talk about what our position should be on disease prevention? Even if we should have one?

KathyS wrote:

toybarons wrote:
There are too many people now seeing poultry as a money maker. Under the current laws, you can operate as a private hatchery and offer "Heritage" poultry. It's a grey area as when the laws were written, hatcheries offering stock to be used either as pets or for preservation of heritage breeds, didn't exist. Here in AB, best of my knowledge, a hatchery is only recognized as such if operates commercially. A private one offering rare breeds for non commercial use fall into a grey area.

I don't think there is anything wrong if people are able to earn some money through selling chicks or hatching eggs. Its not something new, this has been going on in our country for over a century.  And for some, it's a way to make their chickens earn their keep.  Having to continually subsidize the costs  of keeping a flock makes chicken keeping a non-sustainable practice. Although this may not matter to some who think of it as a hobby or just keep a few for pets.  

But as you mention, the typical backyarders who sell chicks or hatching eggs don't fall under the same regulations as a commercial hatchery.  

I have no problem with them at all. I think it's a good thing. My concern is are they operating with disease prevention in mind? What steps are they taking to make sure that they are not selling their customers carrier birds?

Remember a couple of years ago Rochester Hatchery had to cull a huge percent of their breeder stock because of disease. They lost a line of rare turkeys that I believe took them 60years to perfect. All had to be culled to prevent disease.

But what about a private hatchery? They have a disease issue but instead of culling they chose to use anti-biotics to treat. No vet is consulted. Deadstock is not sent to be anaylized as to what disease is being dealt with. Instead, anti-biotics are used. Some birds die. The ones that recover, go back into the breeding program. What if they have a disease that passes from Hen-to-Chick via the egg? Those chicks get sold and are now spread into other flocks.
What of the recovered birds now past useable? Maybe they are sold? Are they carriers? They are now in someone's flock. Maybe there will never be a problem. What happens if there is and as a result a flock needs to be culled because disease was unknowingly brought in.

Which hatchery would you feel the most confident buying bird from?
A private one that culls its sick birds or one that treats theirs with anti-biotics?

KathyS wrote:
I guess the bottom line for me is: regardless of whether people keep chicken as pets or keep them as livestock, I think flock owners should have access to the medications and vaccines needed to help keep their flocks safe and healthy.

Alberta Agriculture and Rural Development is hosting a series of meetings for discussion of these very issues.  Maybe you saw the invitation on ACE forum, Toybarons?  I'm wondering if those meetings have sparked some concerns about government involvement.  I was not able to attend the ones closest to my location, but I think it’s a very timely topic and I’m glad to know they are seeking input from us small backyard chicken-keepers.  I'll be waiting to hear what comes out of it all.

I only found out about the discussion in Edmonton last minute. I did have an invite but got it too late to attend. Unfortunately, only 1 talk was schedueled for Edmonton. Sadly, the topic was pretty much buried on ACE as no one seemed interested in it. I don't spend too much time anymore on either ACE or WCPS because the talk on disease is limited on forums. They often become heated and forums tend to shut them down when they do. There is a bit more freedom on FB Groups.

Alberta Agriculture and Rural Development are hosting a series of talks within the province. They are going to be laying ground work in many areas and one key one is disease prevention. This may mean looking at how disease is controlled by the province. Whether some diseases should be re-evaluated maybe even be re-classified as reportable ones because they have now become of concern. They may be looking at whether anti-bitoics should be restircted in their use and mayb their availability? Some provinces like Quebec removed all access to anti-bitoics for poultry. The only way in that province to get them is through a vet. Maybe that may or may be considered here? That's what the talks are all about. They want input from all sectors of poultry INCLUDING people like you and me. I gave them my name and if they do contact me, if I can participate, I will. Sadly, I likely will be the only backyard flock owner there. Our sector choosing to be strangly quiet in a matter that does need them.

One of the things we do need to discuss is access to vaccines and medications. We also need to understand their usefulenss and what their misuse can do.

If we choose to vaccinate flocks, one needs to understand that most vaccines use a live virus to cure with. This results in a carrier bird: One that in times of stress or disease can shed the virus it carriers and possibly infect health birds. So if we chose to use a vaccine that creates a carrier, what do we do?

Initate a "Herd concept" in that all birds be vaccinate for a disease.
Create a program like the USA's NPIP one? If you want to operate a poultry business or take a bird to a show you must be NPIP certified that your birds are protected against disease?

Do we go back to the old ways of prevention? "Zero Tolerance" in that if it sneezes you kill it. Immedaitely you have fear from people who don't want their pet chickens killed and those who have spent hundreds, even thousands of dollars raising rare breeds.

What about access to testing? Cost of testing? If it's a disease of concern, is our province will to provide testing for free or at a low cost? Is serum testing available like they have in the USA where a bird doesn't need to die in order to be tested?

Why don't we have vets willing to treat poultry? Why are the ones that DO treat poultry not take into consideration that...there is such a thing as PET CHICKENS! There are people raising HERITAGE CHICKENS! Not everyone with a chicken is raising them with the same purpose in mind.

Thing I'm learning is there other options. But these ways need help to understand. They need people to open up their minds & to share opnions to disucss openingly about the future of disease prevention. Not by waiting till the next story of a flock lost to a carrier bird, fingers pointed and accusations fly gets posted.

I think we have to start looking at us, the Backyard Commuity as a whole. Every day, new people are getting into chickens, finding forums like ACE & WCPS and are looking for us. Remember us back in 2008 when ACE was formed? Then a few years later, WCPS. We were the new poultry owners now.

Disease too has changed. We have gone from not knowing about ILT and MG to having a better understanding about it. Same with drug use and treatments. We had to because vets don't seem to think poultry is worth their time. Yet, I personal know of people who have spent hundreds of dollars to have a pet chicken operated on rather than to allow it to die. More of these people exist than they did 5 years ago.

I find myself seriously questioning how I chose to deal with disease and how I choose to use anti-bitoics. I'm tired of reading how  someone who says they took our advice given on a forum quaratined a new bird, then had their flock become sick because that particular bird was a carrier. Irony, it became a carrier because their owner before selling it, treated it with an anti-biotic because we on a forum gave them advice to do so.

My biggest concern is having government knock on the door one day saying testing for disease is now manditory for all backyard flocks. It happened because we as a poultry community decided disease prevention wasn't much to worry about when it came to specific ones like MG. Since it's everywhere anyway and CFIA doesn't think it's worth their time, then why should we? Person buys a carrier bird from another in the community, well Buyer Beware, eh? Sad to hear your flock got sick because but...it's all part of the learning curve.

toybarons, i am reading this with great interest.
Thank you for posting this. Will read again once i am home from work.
I would love more information about vaccinations.
I follow organic pratices in that if i have a bird who is ill, I will treat with antibiotics. Then I will double the withdrawal times.
I wondered about people treating their birds, and then later selling hatchling eggs from those same birds, and know that there is a 5% chance of passing on CRD this way.
When you ask about various health issues with birds, there are always people who respond quickly recognizing the symtoms of what ever disease; because they have had it before?...must go..will write again..

Holy smokes, thought this topic was beat to death on FB already!

I'm so tired of seeing antibiotics misused and always advise people that using the WRONG antibiotic is just as bad or WORSE then keeping a sick bird around rather then culling it. That's how viruses and bacteria mutate. MRSA, Staph Aureus, GAS, C-Diff, and others were all created by not using the right antibiotic for the job.

There is a place for culling as well.

IF vaccines were readily available AND reliable, then yes let's use them. It has worked for Polio and other such things with humans. BUT, to the average joe they aren't readily available or affordable for smaller flocks. Our Marek's vaccination year was horrid and based on that, cold day in h-e-double-hockey-sticks before I vaccinate again. I also don't show because I don't want to vaccinate for ILT OR pick it up. I also don't give farm tours. I take photos and videos and anyone who's interested can look at those.

Unfortunately, there are people who don't care. There are people who don't know. There are people who think they are educating themselves but are, unfortunatley, misunderstanding basic principle on disease and treatment and "how it works". And there are people who are doing their best - it doesn't matter which 'side' they are on - they still get harped on about doing the 'wrong thing'. You are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

So, that's my 2 cents.

Until someone has a logical answer to the topic I don't even want to talk about it, possibly why its ignored on the forums...this topic goes around and around and around...I can't even see staraight after reading everyones suggestions.to cull or not to cull to treat or not to treat...that is the question...  

BriarwoodPoultry wrote:Holy smokes, thought this topic was beat to death on FB already!

I'm so tired of seeing antibiotics misused and always advise people that using the WRONG antibiotic is just as bad or WORSE then keeping a sick bird around rather then culling it. That's how viruses and bacteria mutate. MRSA, Staph Aureus, GAS, C-Diff, and others were all created by not using the right antibiotic for the job.

There is a place for culling as well.

IF vaccines were readily available AND reliable, then yes let's use them. It has worked for Polio and other such things with humans. BUT, to the average joe they aren't readily available or affordable for smaller flocks. Our Marek's vaccination year was horrid and based on that, cold day in h-e-double-hockey-sticks before I vaccinate again. I also don't show because I don't want to vaccinate for ILT OR pick it up. I also don't give farm tours. I take photos and videos and anyone who's interested can look at those.

Unfortunately, there are people who don't care. There are people who don't know. There are people who think they are educating themselves but are, unfortunatley, misunderstanding basic principle on disease and treatment and "how it works". And there are people who are doing their best - it doesn't matter which 'side' they are on - they still get harped on about doing the 'wrong thing'. You are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

So, that's my 2 cents.

I just finsihed telling someone that I was going to fold this converesation because I thought no one was interested. Then I read your post.

You know and one other poster here will understand what I'm going to say. Since you refer to FB. Yup. You are right in that those conversations were beaten to death. However, I think part of the problem was a certain person, whose views though good, came off as sounding extreme. Their's is not the reason I chose to do this post.

Another was the conversation that was shut down due to a mistake I made, which I admitted to. A person went off sideways and claimed I ratted out a whole bunch of people on a private conversation. A private conversation of how many people? Problem was it was a good conversation and should have be left up. We may have all had a difference of opinion about the topic of disease and vaccination, but we were getting somewhere. Even the person of whom I had the issue with, we have talked since then. Business related but, I feel, they hold no malice against me for what happened, nor I against them. I also know they are likely going to read this. If you are, don't go sideways on me. I am not holding any beef. I am bringing this up only because I want BriarwoodPoultry, you and the few others involved who might be reading this to know where I am coming from. My opinions are my own. Not the other person to whom we all know has caused tempers to flare big time on FB because of their opinion of what they chose to do involving their flock. Nor is this conversation have anything to do with recent events that happened on FB involving them that caused me to fall out with them. They are still my friend BUT I don't support what they tried to do to them and their business. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

We are supposed to be a poultry community. Different facets of the same jewel. Each different but together in our love of poultry.

Now to what you said here.
BriarwoodPoultry I agree with you and your comments. When it comes to vaccines and anti-biotics too many people are quick to want them but don't really understand their proper use. A big part of me thinks it would be best if we all adapted vaccination, similiar to a NPIP program inthe USA. If we all chose to vaccinate for key diseases, then we would be better off. Problem is you then get the arguement from the other side that doesn't want to vaccinate because you are using a live virus to introduce the disease into the bird so that it can build up protection against a disease. Yes, you have a carrier bird. However, if everyone is vaccinated for that disease, then we all have immunity. I'm begining to think this is the only sound way to get control of some disease we are now seeing more & more of in flocks.

Notice I am not naming any 1 particular disease. I don't want to bring that into the conversation as we both know, people will soley focus only on that. That one disease is NOT the reason I chose to bring this up. Vaccination is one 1 part of the conversation and not the whole thing.

Maybe my position was overshadowed due to my connection with a certain person? I don't hold the opinion that in order to clean up a flock that a 100% kill is necesary. Not all diseases warrant a complete cull. Especially the one one everyones minds right now. There are sound, proven methods using anti-biotics that can clean up a flock if a Hen-to-Chick disease is suspected. Rare birds and lines don't necessarily need to be lost. Even with a disease like ILT, at least her in AB, I am told exceptions can be made for rare breeds so that an operator can be closed, eggs collected and hatched off sight and then once new chicks are up & about, the diseased flock can then be culled. Someone can correct me? ILT is not Hen-to-Chick so the disease is not passed on. ILT also can easily be killed with disenfectant. So under quaratined conditions, it is possible that a heritage flock may not be lost.

I think the elephant in the room is the fear of having a sound, open talk about what we can do to become pro-active in disease prevention that someone must have a motive? A reason? Trying to hide something?
Again, you know those FB talks we had. I'm not trying to stir it up again here. All I want to do is say we should start becoming pro-active about disease prevention! Let's talk about how we can do that? Let's talk about vaccines, pros & cons? Let's talk about killing as a control?
But let's talk without it being about "Hey my bird died, it had a disease and someone sold it to me now my whole flock is diseased."
Nothing gets solved that way. All that happens is tempers flare and an important topic gets shut down.

I'm likely not making much sense as it's midnight...but...

If no one wants to talk about it, be forwarned, it isn't going to go away. I know I'm the minority saying we have to stop thinking in terms of re-active thinking towards disease. Waiting for that carrier bird to hit our flock and wipe it out is happening more & more. I've had more than one person say that if the CFIA doesn't think it's a problem then why worry? Well maybe. But does that mean we should bury our heads in the sand about it? Wait till government steps in and dictates disease preventio for us? Surely as a private hatchery, I'm sure you would rather be able to control your own flocks health, rather than having the government come in and do it for you?

Point is...we can chose to continue being re-active to disease. I'm thinking that maybe becoming pro-active to treat disease might be more effective. Especially when dealing with some diseases we are all begining to see more of.

I shall get off my soap box. Can't say if I'll respond to any other posts. My peace has been said.

I guess I missed the FB discussions, and I'm on a lot of FB pages...guess not the right ones! But I want to follow this thread.

I have a great fear of the "man" showing up on my doorstep one day and either telling me what to do and how to do it, or simply handing me a piece of paper telling me that because of a disease in the area, or a disease I brought to my flock, or suspected in mine - and of course always in the name of the greater good - that order will say my flock/animals/everything will be destroyed. Has happened, does happen, and will happen again.

The one good thing about the forums, is that unlike the previous days of destruction, there is a chance there could be enough people to have a 'voice'. One person crying out about the destruction of a flock because of suspicion of disease is very different than the potential of 10's of thousands of people crying out with the help of networking and social medial.

Toybarons, I would like to know what other facebook page talks about stuff like this?

I agree with the system of monitoring that they have in the USA. NPIP- I read about it in one of the chicken magazines and wondered why we do not have this in Canada.
My understanding of culling one effected chicken does not at all touch the topic of disease within a flock. There could still be many carriers of that particular disease, just are not symptomatic at present.
I know that I am not very experienced in the chicken world, however have extensive medical background and do not do many things "lightly" I like to know what is going on and what I need to do to "do the right thing"
Without serum testing we are all making guesses as to what our birds might or might not have. All symtoms of any disease may not be present. There are some diseases which are reportable. Do people report them? Does agriculture Canada provide testing of carcasses or live birds?
What vaccines are currently available? and how accessible are they in Canada?
Such a great topic.
I had read about doing a total cull of your whole flock and starting over with birds certified to be free of the disease you culled for. Then thought you would never know what you re-populate with.
Are there actual chicken fanciers who test and certify? ...probably only in the US
you have got lots of questions going in my little head-thanks

bigrock wrote:Toybarons, I would like to know what other facebook page talks about stuff like this?

Me, too. So I can make sure to never join it. Sounds like a lot of unnecessary drama.

authenticfarm wrote:
Me, too. So I can make sure to never join it. Sounds like a lot of unnecessary drama.

hmm, is this really necessary? Sounds like there are some who would like to know... doesn't really matter if you don't. Does it?

bigrock wrote:

authenticfarm wrote:
Me, too. So I can make sure to never join it. Sounds like a lot of unnecessary drama.

hmm, is this really necessary?  Sounds like there are some who would like to know... doesn't really matter if you don't.  Does it?

You must not be on many chicken facebook groups. There is a lot of unnecessary drama in many of them. I would rather preemptively avoid them than join and then leave.

bigrock wrote:

authenticfarm wrote:
Me, too. So I can make sure to never join it. Sounds like a lot of unnecessary drama.

hmm, is this really necessary?  Sounds like there are some who would like to know... doesn't really matter if you don't.  Does it?

But people like Authenticfarm do believe it is a lot about drama. Which is fine. It's not a dig towards you authenticfarm, because you do represent how many do feel on the subject. My only caution is please don't stir the topic's pot so that it gets shutdown for those of us who simply want to talk about. Please? IF you want to go into your comment further, by all means do.

Bigrock - Flock testing seems to be the thing in the USA. Many states require it if you want to show birds. Many breeders do. If they want to ship, they need to be NPIP tested. My understanding is they do have serum testing and many states do the testing either free or at low cost.
Canada...we get next to nothing. Serum testing is available if you can find a poultry vet that knows how to do the test. A couple of provinces down in the maritimes do provide free testing for ILT due to problems with that disease. Most provinces refer people to their provinical vet. I know someone in BC who said it cost them over $300 to have their flock serum tested BUT it requires secondary testing 2 weeks later to confirm results. The there is the cost to annual have your flock tested to make sure you remain disease free.
It sort of becomes very expensive. Fine if you operate a business where, I would think, the cost could be recovered through sales
The expensive is impractical for most of us who simply keep poultry in our backyard.

Problem with a lot of your questions is each province has its own guidelines on what they will do for us. So BC which is probably the most proactive of disease prevention has very good material available to us, which can be accessed online. AB is good to poor as most of its material is outdated or you kind of have to search real hard to find what you are looking for. I wish I could recall the link I had to one Ontario article that said in effect, provinces should have a universal strategy including the CFIA's position, rather than what is there now. CFIA simply caters only to the commercial sector. Pretty much blows us off unless our activities pose a proplem to the commercial sector.

As for vaccines and anti-biotics. Oer the last 2 years, anyone paying close attention can see there are changes happening. Not for the better, in my opinion.
Many drugs used to treat poultry are undergoing relabeling and restrictions. Baytril which was approved, was removed in Canada, then the USA because of connections to a super bug in humans. This is a fact. Tylan labeling is now changed to suggest it not be used in laying hens. Some provinces like Quebec, has removed all access to anti-biotics through feedstores. You need to see a vet who must now prescribe them. Same with vaccines. Most are being removed. SOme like ILT you can no longer even get through a vet you previously got it from because the ILT vaccine that using the live virus has been proven to cause mutation and can create new strains of ILT. As of 2009 [?] there is a vaccine available that doesn't use a live virus to protect against ILT which doesn't cause a bird to "shed".
Much of this is because of concerns by everyone about overuse within the livestock industry and by misuse by backyard owners who don't inform themselves enough on poultry health to make proper decisions for a sick bird in their flock.

As for FB...I can't point you to any one specific group. The discussions are sort of spread out amongst many different ones.

authenticfarm wrote:

bigrock wrote:

authenticfarm wrote:
Me, too. So I can make sure to never join it. Sounds like a lot of unnecessary drama.

hmm, is this really necessary?  Sounds like there are some who would like to know... doesn't really matter if you don't.  Does it?

You must not be on many chicken facebook groups. There is a lot of unnecessary drama in many of them. I would rather preemptively avoid them than join and then leave.

I'm on several. I agree. FB does invite drama. Let's not bring that drama here. Please.

toybarons wrote:I'm on several. I agree. FB does invite drama. Let's not bring that drama here. Please.

I agree with you. Which is why I asked, so I can avoid that group.

I enjoy a good, factual, science-based discussion on any topic.

authenticfarm wrote:

toybarons wrote:I'm on several. I agree. FB does invite drama. Let's not bring that drama here. Please.

I agree with you. Which is why I asked, so I can avoid that group.

I enjoy a good, factual, science-based discussion on any topic.

*LOL* I see! I misunderstood you.   

The drama was more involving individual topics rather than a specific group. Since many of the key posters were on other groups, it was like playing musical chairs. Drama would be there, then here, taken way over there...ect. Worse was you would get a real good talk going and in they would come. Next thing you know, topic was either closed or removed. Hands up here that I take blame on one I know of. Thankfully, that person and I have declared a fresh start and were good now =)

gosh, i misunderstood you too Authentic= appologies

toybarons wrote:*LOL* I see! I misunderstood you.   

The drama was more involving individual topics rather than a specific group. Since many of the key posters were on other groups, it was like playing musical chairs. Drama would be there, then here, taken way over there...ect. Worse was you would get a real good talk going and in they would come. Next thing you know, topic was either closed or removed. Hands up here that I take blame on one I know of. Thankfully, that person and I have declared a fresh start and were good now =)

Ugh, nightmare! Facebook is the worst for drama.