RIR's for eggs & meat

For some time now hubby has been considering (more like convincing me) of getting a dual purpose bird that we can divide up so we have those that are strictly for eggs, some hens that are in company of a rooster for fertile eggs, then the ones that are raised to be for meat. Makes sense to me really, I just wanted to get a handle on the hens we already have before delving even further and seeing as it will be mostly me and eventually our two girls taking care of all these birds... Well I want to be a bit more knowledgable first.

Anyway, hubby was talking to someone who used Rhode Island Reds and got them from the hatchery north of Edmonton (Rochester I believe). The only thing she doesn't do is breed to hatch her own to replenish her stock, she just orders more chicks.

Googling though, I have been seeing that hatcheries that sell dual-purpose birds have gone more towards the egg production side of things diminishing the meat side of the dual purpose. This is something I can understand, but who knows because Rochester could very well produce a RIR that's well enough in size to be something to dress up for a table.

I'd just like to get others thoughts on this. Ideally I'd like to have a breed that we can resupply our selves without ordering more from a hatchery or getting from a breeder. Should I have my husband consider two breeds instead, one for meat and the other for eggs?

I would think that RIRs would work for you. I wanted the same as you. One breed to do it all, including go broody. I chose Buff Orpingtons and I think they fit the bill perfectly for me. The RIRs are not particularly broody...but if you are going to use an incubator, it will not matter. I got my Orpingtons from Rochester Hatchery, and they are healthy, but I am disappointed in the size.

RIR's were just the ones my husband decided on because that was the breed the lady he was talking too had. I have been considering Plymouth's and Columbian Rocks, didn't think of Buff Orpingtons.

We do have an incubator, got it free actually which is always nice.

I figured that if I was seeing problems in size I could just breed the bigger / meatier looking ones to try and get future birds that would be better size wise.

There is a really wide selection of breeds that could fit your dual purpose requirement ranging from RIR to Orps to Chanteclers to Langshans.

I think the most important thing to consider is the source of your foundation stock. If I was you I would want a strain from a reputable breeder and ideally from a breeder that could be a mentor.

I LOVE my Orps! Good size, good layers and at the moment BROODY!

You and your husband have some wonderful goals! Im always happy to hear of others who are interested in self-sufficiency by choosing truly dual purpose breeds of chickens. The key is, as you mentioned - taking control over the direction of your flock by selecting for certain traits. If you are wanting a rooster that will make a nice meal, plump and meaty, that is something you need to continuously select for.
While I don't like to go around bashing hatcheries, this is the most common problem with hatcheries that try to offer dual purpose or heritage breeds. Because they are trying to fill orders and produce the most chicks possible, their flocks are heavily selected for egg production. Naturally over time, this means they begin to lose track of the meat qualities and flocks most often drift toward under-weight birds that can no longer be considered dual purpose.

This is the reason why real, authentic examples of the heritage breeds are becoming so rare. There were some wonderful birds on display at the Wetaskiwin poultry show over the weekend...hopefully you were able to stop by and have a look.
But it takes a lot of comittment to produce birds like those. Serious breeders of dual purpose chickens need to keep many things in balance. A flock that is healthy, hardy, producing good numbers of eggs and putting on the pounds so that they will make a good meaty bird for butchering. Farmer Bob's experience with his hatchery Buffs is very typical. They look nice and are enjoyable to have around for eggs, but disappointing if you want to butcher some for meat.

I don't want to discourage anyone from trying some chicks from a hatchery. I just like people to be aware and prepared before buying that batch of chicks. When the chickens are grown up and don't perform the way they have read they should, and don't end up looking like pictures of the breed, so many people become disenchanted with the whole idea of heritage, or dual purpose chickens. THey dont realize their experience with the breed is not based on what that breed is truly meant to look and perform like. And starting out with hatchery chickens with the intention of selecting and working with their flock for improvements...well I've been there and tried that. Unless you get a big influx of better genetics from a breeder, there is often very little to be gained over many years.
Just a few points to keep in mind when getting started with your own breeding plans!

   Good Post    

KathyS wrote:You and your husband have some wonderful goals!  Im always happy to hear of others who are interested in self-sufficiency by choosing truly dual purpose breeds of chickens.  The key is, as you mentioned - taking control over the direction of your flock by selecting for certain traits.  If you are wanting a rooster that will make a nice meal, plump and meaty, that is something you need to continuously select for.  
While I don't like to go around bashing hatcheries, this is the most common problem with hatcheries that try to offer dual purpose or heritage breeds.  Because they are trying to fill orders and produce the most chicks possible, their flocks are heavily selected for egg production.  Naturally over time, this means they begin to lose track of the meat qualities and flocks most often drift toward under-weight birds that can no longer be considered dual purpose.

This is the reason why real, authentic examples of the heritage breeds are becoming so rare. There were some wonderful birds on display at the Wetaskiwin poultry show over the weekend...hopefully you were able to stop by and have a look.
But it takes a lot of comittment to produce birds like those.  Serious breeders of dual purpose chickens need to keep many things in balance.  A flock that is healthy, hardy, producing good numbers of eggs and putting on the pounds so that they will make a good meaty bird for butchering. Farmer Bob's experience with his hatchery Buffs is very typical.  They look nice and are enjoyable to have around for eggs, but disappointing if you want to butcher some for meat.

I don't want to discourage anyone from trying some chicks from a hatchery.  I just like people to be aware and prepared before buying that batch of chicks.  When the chickens are grown up and don't perform the way they have read they should, and don't end up looking like pictures of the breed, so many people become disenchanted with the whole idea of heritage, or dual purpose chickens.  THey dont realize their experience with the breed is not based on what that breed is truly meant to look and perform like.  And starting out with hatchery chickens with the intention of selecting and working with their flock for improvements...well I've been there and tried that.  Unless you get a big influx of better genetics from a breeder, there is often very little to be gained over many years.  
Just a few points to keep in mind when getting started with your own breeding plans!
 

Good post, KathyS!  I speak to so many people who bought chicks because of what they read about how that breed should perform, and then are disappointed -- not just with Rochester's chicks but also with birds that have been bred for exhibition or just for a different purpose than the original.  A breeder can really change the utility of his line in just a few generations.... sometimes without even knowing that it has happened.

The Rhode Island Red got its original reputation as a dual-purpose breed because the developers crossed local birds with some large asiatic chickens that were imported to the States -- giving the crosses great hybrid vigour and big, fast growing bodies.  But the RIRs became popular for egg production mainly, and those meaty characteristics are long lost.  I have production bred RIRs (for laying), but I don't recommend them as dual-purpose when there are so many better dual-purpose birds available.

My advice is to get quite specific about the laying and meat producing characteristics you want in your flock, and then speak to lots of sellers and make sure you buy your chicks from the people who have developed lines of that perform the way you want.  You might consider keeping two breeds in order to make the egg supply less seasonal, or to give you roasters as well as fryers, etc.

Nice advice in both those posts, thank you.

The only reason why I mentioned the hatchery, is because the husband saw the price difference in regards to some of the birds I have coming in May from Triple J. I have tried to explain to him the difference in birds from a hatchery verses birds from a breeder but I don't think he gets it.    

In regards to the amount of eggs I'd like to produce, the more the better. If the amount declines over the winter that is fine, just as long as we have enough coming in for our family - everyone else can wait till Spring! And if I can get roasters and fryers from a meat bird, I'd be happy. If it's one or the other, I'd prefer roasters. I should also add that I want to be able to hatch more meat birds on my own.

I have spent the last three years, breeding my RIR's to become a better chicken, at least in my own eyes, I started with buying birds from each of Rodchesters, Millers and McMurry's. I have kept all of the largest for breeding and I have noticed a reasonable difference in the last two generations. But still my roosters look like footballs compared to a meat bred chickens beach ball shape. The laying ability hasn't changed at all. Hopefully as I spend more time with this, and learn what it takes to "improve" my RIR's I won't of taken any wrong turns. At least I can eat my mistakes and I'm enjoying the experience.

Great project, Chicken hoarder! And the research shows that body size is one of the more responsive traits to selective breeding. So as long as you keep selecting your biggest roosters and hens for breeding, you should see slow improvement over the years.

Here are some pointers I was given by Dr. Fred Silversides who was coaching me when I first started on a project to restore meat qualities to Light Sussex:
1) Cull for growth RATE, not just size/weight. Size at age of slaughter, or the age you would like to be able to slaughter. Slower growth is not what you want.
2) Produce as many chicks in each year as you can -- hundreds. (Thousands would be better    )
3) Keep adding new blood, to replace the heterogeneity you lose with each generation - growth rate is tightly related to heterosis.
4) Review the history of the breed, and consider crossing some of those other breeds back in -- Malay, for RIR. [You will be amazed.]

Note that the chubby breast meat of the Cornish Crosses etc, is a special gene that RIRs don't have, so you will never get a carcass that looks like those.

There are a few dual-purpose breeds that are also cold-hardy - but of course, I think the Partridge Chantecler is the best one.

Frankly, having attempted to grow out a few extra White Chantecler roosters this year, I was diappointed in their scrawny forms at 7 months of age, and have deemed them "not worth eating." Mind - the line of white chanteclers I have is not a very good one. My Partridges of the same age are much larger, but again, I chalk that up to a difference in lines more so than a difference in variety.

I honestly think that if your main goal is for meat, you are better off (accounting for the time it takes to raise them and the amount of feed they will eat) just getting some variety of broiler chicken.

Now, if you're looking for cold hardy layers, I recommend the Chantecler (either white or partridge) for their awesome winter laying. My girls don't care if it's -40, they keep laying. But my Olive Eggers from Triple J are great layers as well, and also don't mind the cold.

Partridge Chanteclers are notoriously broody, which is great if you want a chicken to raise her own chicks - but it also means fewer eggs sometimes. The White Chantecler is mot normally broody.

Why do I keep mentioning cold hardiness? Because it's crazy important in our climate. I am not sure if you were thinking of the rose comb RIR because of that, but I would absolutely avoid any breed with a large or single comb - which rules out some good dual purpose breeds like the orpington, sussex, and so on. However, if you want a heated coop all winter, you can consider larger combed breeds.

Well said, authenticfarm. 

This leads me to pose a question ( I live in an urban environment where 6 backyard layers is pushing it).  So I am not raising any for myself.

If someone wants to raise dual purpose birds that are cold hardy, and for the sake of example only, has the capacity for 50 birds in total, could they not have, say a dozen of a cold hardy dual purpose bird like a PC and then rest being say a cross of  a Cornish roo with chantelcer hens to produce their own meaties?  They would be able to live side by side, or even together and you wouldn't run across any of the associated problems with raising broilers that would eat everything in sight at the expense of the layers coupled with their vigour and hopefully substantially better carcasses?

Initially when the RIR's size came into question, my plan was to do the same chickenhoarder. Breeding my biggest roosters and hens while incorporating new blood by bringing in new Rhodes.

However I've been talking to Emily and passing back information to my husband (who is out of town) about the Mistral's Gris and we may, more then likely, be looking at getting some of those babes. Though I still plan on having some RIR's for layers so I may just still see if I can improve the breed anyway.

As for rose combs, yes Authentic, I was thinking those type of combs. My coop isn't heated and I only ever turned on the lamps when it got below 30. Even then, I'm not sure if my girls cared as it wasn't like I saw them all huddled up together.

Yardbirds, everything I've read says not to keep meaties with your layers or other birds. But I could be wrong in with what you are suggesting.

yardbirds23 wrote:If someone wants to raise dual purpose birds that are cold hardy, and for the sake of example only, has the capacity for 50 birds in total, could they not have, say a dozen of a cold hardy dual purpose bird like a PC and then rest being say a cross of  a Cornish roo with chantelcer hens to produce their own meaties?  They would be able to live side by side, or even together and you wouldn't run across any of the associated problems with raising broilers that would eat everything in sight at the expense of the layers coupled with their vigour and hopefully substantially better carcasses?

I was actually thinking of attempting that cross. I even have the White Cornish cockerel (purebred, not hatchery) and the White Chantecler pullets to do it. But I rather unexpectedly obtained a new line of Partridge Chanteclers, so I am going to focus on that program more this year - my White Chanteclers are all going to new homes next month.

However, I do think it would be a great cross, especially if one had some bigger, chunkier Chanteclers than what I have to start with. I would expect that they would be ready to butcher around the ~18 week mark, maybe sooner if they were raised broiler-style rather than mixed-flock-style. With the Chantecler blood in there, though, they would hopefully be great free rangers and cold-hardy. A person could keep back the best of the pullets and either breed back to Cornish to add more size for the next generation, or breed them back to a Chantecler to help improve the size and meatiness of the Chantecler (which is lacking in many lines).

I have a Partridge Chantecler cockerel here that is around the same age as my White Cornish cockerel. I weighed them before Christmas, and there was only a few ounces of difference between them, though the Chantecler looks about three times as big because of the frame size and feathering. Makes me think that the Chantecler/Cornish mix would be a wicked awesome cross for a meat or dual purpose bird.

Kimberly K wrote:Yardbirds, everything I've read says not to keep meaties with your layers or other birds. But I could be wrong in with what you are suggesting.

I don't know for sure, but I would imagine the recommendation comes from how broilers are supposed to be fed and raised - higher calorie/protein ration and restricted exercise opportunities to get them to that optimum weight by ~6 weeks. I have raised white broilers before and I can attest to the fact that they are DISGUSTING. Gross little poop machines. Delicious, tender, juicy poop machines.

There are the other broiler options now, of course - the Berg Grazer, Mistral Gris, etc. that are supposed to be a better meat bird for people who do want a pasture-raised birds. I haven't tried them yet, but the numbers on them look good, and to me, seems like a slightly more ethical way to raise broilers - they get to enjoy life a little bit before they become supper.

TruNorth wrote: But the RIRs became popular for egg production mainly, and those meaty characteristics are long lost.  I have production bred RIRs (for laying), but I don't recommend them as dual-purpose when there are so many better dual-purpose birds available.

The true RIR's are becoming rare, but thankfully they are not yet extinct.  There are a number of excellent flocks in the states and in Canada that boast the same characteristics that made these one of the most popular choices for chickens on North American farms in the early years.   Dedicated breeders like Lil'farm, myself and others are working hard to get the best bloodlines and keep the breed here for future generations.

I was shocked when I started searching for Reds and found only a handful of people working on the correct, old type RIRs.  I knew they had been a mainstay on farms in the past and expected they would still be quite easy to find.  And when I further narrowed my search for the Rose-comb type, I found only one breeder in the east.  Hopefully there are others, but I haven't been able to track down anyone else with the Rose Comb type yet.  As far as I know mine are the only ones in western Canada.

Kimberly K wrote:
As for rose combs, yes Authentic, I was thinking those type of combs. My coop isn't heated and I only ever turned on the lamps when it got below 30. Even then, I'm not sure if my girls cared as it wasn't like I saw them all huddled up together.

Any RIRs available through hatcheries will be single comb.

I may be wrong in my logic, and agree what you all have said.  What I was thinking was consistently crossing the Cornish roo over the PC hens to give you hatches of meaties therefore raising your own and not keeping the offspring to breed more meaties. Guess that would depend on the results achieved.  It may require acquiring a new pure Cornish roo from time to time.

yardbirds23 wrote:I may be wrong in my logic, and agree what you all have said.  What I was thinking was consistently crossing the Cornish roo over the PC hens to give you hatches of meaties therefore raising your own and not keeping the offspring to breed more meaties. Guess that would depend on the results achieved.  It may require acquiring a new pure Cornish roo from time to time.

One could do that, too. A new Cornish roo would be something you would definitely have to be able to keep sourcing, likely on an annual basis, since they aren't necessarily a long-living breed.

I would go White Cornish x White Chantecler, though, for prettier carcasses. If you were free-ranging or pasturing, a DC x PC cross might be wiser for their camouflaging abilities.

Or it might be better to go with a Chantecler rooster over Cornish hens, I have heard that the Cornish roosters take a little longer to start breeding, and that the bowling-ball shape can make fertility an issue with breeding pure Cornish - a Cornish rooster may simply roll off a hen. I can't say for sure, though, I have yet to see my Cornish cockerel attempt to breed any hen, but he is in a mixed flock with a dominant Chantecler rooster and seems happy to play second fiddle. The Houdan hens jump on his head if he crows too much. Poor guy gets no respect.

KathyS wrote:

TruNorth wrote: But the RIRs became popular for egg production mainly, and those meaty characteristics are long lost.  I have production bred RIRs (for laying), but I don't recommend them as dual-purpose when there are so many better dual-purpose birds available.

The true RIR's are becoming rare, but thankfully they are not yet extinct.  There are a number of excellent flocks in the states and in Canada that boast the same characteristics that made these one of the most popular choices for chickens on North American farms in the early years.   Dedicated breeders like Lil'farm, myself and others are working hard to get the best bloodlines and keep the breed here for future generations.

I was shocked when I started searching for Reds and found only a handful of people working on the correct, old type RIRs.  I knew they had been a mainstay on farms in the past and expected they would still be quite easy to find.  And when I further narrowed my search for the Rose-comb type, I found only one breeder in the east.  Hopefully there are others, but I haven't been able to track down anyone else with the Rose Comb type yet.  As far as I know mine are the only ones in western Canada.

Unrelated - I really enjoyed seeing your RC RIR in Wetaskiwin - I had no idea you had that breed, as well! It would be great to see more of them around.

I need more coops and pens. lol

  that conjures up quite the image.  Thanks for the laugh for today.   

authenticfarm quote:
Or it might be better to go with a Chantecler rooster over Cornish hens, I have heard that the Cornish roosters take a little longer to start breeding, and that the bowling-ball shape can make fertility an issue with breeding pure Cornish - a Cornish rooster may simply roll off a hen. I can't say for sure, though, I have yet to see my Cornish cockerel attempt to breed any hen, but he is in a mixed flock with a dominant Chantecler rooster and seems happy to play second fiddle. The Houdan hens jump on his head if he crows too much. Poor guy gets no respect.

I keep my Cornish cockerel simply because he does make me laugh. He's so ugly that he's cute!

I have also been breeding another line of RIR's in witch I started with one RIR hen that some how showed up with a pea comb in a group of hatchery birds. I mated her with a Buckeye rooster that I got from Cindy Q 3 years ago and have kept all the offspring that retained the pea comb in the last two breedings. This year I will be mating all the pea combed hens back to the largest pure RIR rooster that I have. The oddest thing that showed up out of this was, one single combed bird that turned out to be a rooster and he was white with almost blue eyes. His legs even were very pale yellow, I was thinking that he was a albino and I was going to keep him. But his brothers decided that he was too different and all ganged up on him one day. With this I'm hoping to end up with a pea combed chicken that is the same as the RIR's so I won't have to heat the coops.

really enjoying this thread. it is not so easy to come by RCRIR and I think they are the shizzle. Hope you have a great result with this breeding combo. sorry about the white rooster biting the dust, really interesting. did you get any photographs? actually, be cool to see some pictures of your other chickens :-).

Ah, Kathy! I didn't realize Hawthron Hill heritage Poultry was you! (and that's cause I clicked your web link before I realized its in your signature, I am so blind sometimes). When I googled RIR's you site came up and your birds look gorgeous!

I was going to say something else, but my mind seems to have gotten distracted by thoughts of albino roosters and a rooster getting ganged up on by hens   

With regards to the ability of an SOP quality large fowl Cornish to do his part in producing fertile eggs...

This is my second year breeding large fowl Cornish and my fifth year with the bantams. I am hatching both as we speak. The fertility is not the best...about 60% but that is cornish to cornish and perhaps the less than stellar fertility is due to other circumstances such as weather, light, and last not forget the hens play apart as well.

Quite frankly, since I am not selling eggs, and the group produces more fertile eggs than I need, I don't mind the intermittent fertility.

The Cornish are decent if not intermittent layers. Their eggs are rather small for the size of the bird and very circular.