Possible Heritage Flock Certification Program -your imput

I am working on something right now and with out going into great detail I am working on a program where flocks of heritage poultry would be certified.

If you were looking for a heritage breed from a breeder flock that were certified what would you look for or expect to see or get.

Some of the things I have on my list are first - looking only at APA Standard breeds( may expand from there), Naturally mating, long productive outdoor life span, Slow growth rate, egg laying ability

Health of birds, cleanilness of housing etc,
Flocks to be inspected by licensed personnel and only a grade of excellent would be acceptable.

This is just a small part of what I am thinking but would like to hear your imput as what you think would be important in a program such as this.Once it is all put together I will share the details with you, I should also mention I have no personal stake in this but am helping put something together.

Thanks for your imput everyone.

Heather

I don't trust most sellers now and just because someone is so called certified, I would put no more weight on them as just Joe blow selling good chickens.

Got your point and all I am trying to do is put some ideas down as I know many here have had some good points from previous points under other topics. Looking for things like what type of records should be kept. Thinking of standard breeds but not neccesary exhibition quality but good conformation which leads to proper carcass growth and egg production. Things that perhaps me as an exhibition breeder might not think about, though I don't keep birds that don't lay eggs or breed.

Lets keep it light as I don't want a dabate just ideas.

Thanks for your contribtion though and perhaps you can expand on your comment though to see where the failings of the birds you purchased were and it may give me an idea or two.
Thanks again

Heather

What organization determines what is a heritage breed and what is not? We recently acquired some Broad Breasted Bronze Turkeys that descended from the Rochester Hatchery flock. Rare Breeds of Canada listed them as a heritage flock that should be preserved, but I've read other websites that dismiss all BBBs as being hybrids.

The "certifying" by an agency inspection kind of scares me but I guess it is one way to set some sort of standard for care and housing conditions.
This is a very interesting idea Heather and may produce some good results.
I think some kind of a health record log with vaccinations etc recorded would be a good part of such a program.
I like the idea of birds that are naturally mating and have good longevity being part of a heritage breed qualification.
I will be interested to hear what others think of this idea.

I like the idea of being able to buy from a certified breeder. I would like to see some sort of disease testing made available that all birds would have to have before being sold and a certificate to the buyer that birds have been tested and what they have been vaccinated for.

I do have concerns as rosewood does. Who would say what is a heritage breed or not? No disrespect to you or other APA judges. I am not saying this to dish what you do but you did ask for honest input. I know I am very new to exhibition poultry, but I tend to listen to talk at the shows I have been to. I have heard more than one person say that birds bred for exhibition using APA SOP are not necessarily traits you would necessarily want in a heritage flock bred for what its actual use was; meat, egg, fancy. I feel you would need to consider too the definitions of what constitutes a heritage breed of poultry that other organizations use.

What I would like to see is a vaccination program that can be set up and made available that would be affordable to those who want their flocks certified to be part of the program. Something maybe like Pullorum–typhoid testing in the US is made free to those who want their flocks tested and then certified.

I'm one who would like to learn more about what you are trying to put together once more information becomes available.

I think it is an interesting idea. osomeone could have thier little breeding flocks certified, breed by breed, by meeting the criterion. It would be certification of the BREED FLOCK, not of the whole farm. I would defintiely support flock certification, breeding group by breeding group.

Very good points everyone and one of the things being looked at is the defintion of "Heritage" flocks and I think I have come up with a good definition taking many things into consideration.
Health of the flock and husbandry should also play an important role I think.
Articsun you have hit the nail on the head breed by breed with the whole farm husbandary taken as a whole.
I think where the SOP should come in is that all birds within a breeding flock should be free off all disqualifications for that breed. At least starting with defect free birds and raising the flock owners awareness of these defects can only help.

Good ideas folks, and I think record keeping will be important here as we are looking more while the birds have to look like the breed they are supposed to more emphisis is placed on attaining proper things that the breed was orginally bred for.
By saying they have to look like their SOP breed this is to exclude people who have lets say the "Danish Brown Leghorn" from trying to certify their flock as Light Brown Leghorns, while both are excellent egg producers, there are some huge differences in breed type and lineage.

Thank you for your help on this.

Heather

My only concern would be that it be a volunteer program that would not affect those who wish to continue to breed birds without certification. The choice then is left to the buyer as to whether they wish to buy certified birds or not and the individual who chooses to continue to raise birds independantly of the program will not be adversely affected.

HappyChicks of course it would be a volunteer program, more like a protocol program with a guide to helping hertiage breed raisers achieve the goal of getting these L.F breeds do what they were intended for a guide of sorts.

Heather

i like the fact it would be for housing conditions definitly, and diseases ect, but would this not cost allot of money? how would you test for diseases? but my concern is who will be doing the inspecting? and is this strictly for show breeders as allot of us prob have some birds on our farm with faults...? and like everything else who is to say everything is just so after the inspector is gone that they dont have a outbreak of something? and they still sell their birds as disease free?

i like this idea but there is allot of variables that will have to be looked at

sounds like it might be a good Idea but there is alot to think about.
it sounds alot like a USDA type program
and they have so many rules it is crazy

and will the Flocks be NPIP and if so who will be doing the NPIP testing Hope not a vet as that would be expensive.
In the states there are different people that have takin the NPIP course and can do the testing. So would that be a course available to people here to keep cost down I know down there the 2 day course cost 50.00
so that might be something a person might look into. I have friends down there that are tester's and they charge 10.00 to 25.00 to do the testing but most I know do it for Lunch and a cup of CoffeeLOL

This would be set up for Canadians not Americians and the person would be given a list of people to choose from. There is a difference between defects and Disqualifying faults that can be genitically passed on through the generations. This is not being tailored for show breeders though I don't see what the difference would be as everyone should be striving to have birds that fit the purpose they were developed for. As for instance my Leghorns were developed for heavy laying and I cull birds who don't fit that purpose no matter how correct they are to the SOP. Same goes for my L.F Cornish I want nice big birds for butchering and while Cornish are not great layers I will not keep a female that only lays very few eggs as it is no good for me or anyone else. While you want a nice short leg on them I do not keep males for breeding who are so short legged they cannot breed naturally, which is something this program would call for.

I still manage to do very well in the exhibition poultry world with both of these breeds. Sometimes show breeders get extreme with the amount of feather and shortness of leg and other things. I as a judge do not reward this, I stick to what the standard calls for and a bird must be balanced all around.

Anyway thanks for all the imput and I will forge ahead with my poject.

Heather

Hope this does not derail the thread.

I think the quality/purity of the flock is a separate issue from how adequate or inadequate their housing/keeping is.

For a long time I've thought we should have a board that determines EHTICAL EGGS. In other words, birds that are raised in humane conditions. Not organic, not free range, but HUMANE.

I think to certify someone on the quality of their product ( chickens) is one thing. To certify them on their standard of housing and keeping is a separate issue altogether. While important and to me (the mutt breeder) perhaps MORE important than SOP, it is still a different issue and I do not think it serves anyone to lump them together.

THe conformation/production of a chicken is objective and can be determined by the written directive of the SOP. BUt YOUR idea of good keeping and MY idea of good keeping might be two different ideas and are therefore subjective. A much harder thing to nail down and not related to the how good or bad the stock is.

viczoe wrote:This would be set up for Canadians not Americians and the person would be given a list of people to choose from. There is a difference between defects and Disqualifying faults that can be genitically passed on through the generations. This is not being tailored for show breeders though I don't see what the difference would be as everyone should be striving to have birds that fit the purpose they were developed for. As for instance my Leghorns were developed for heavy laying and I cull birds who don't fit that purpose no matter how correct they are to the SOP. Same goes for my L.F Cornish I want nice big birds for butchering and while Cornish are not great layers I will not keep a female that only lays very few eggs as it is no good for me or anyone else. While you want a nice short leg on them I do not keep males for breeding who are so short legged they cannot breed naturally, which is something this program would call for.

I still manage to do very well in the exhibition poultry world with both of these breeds. Sometimes show breeders get extreme with the amount of feather and shortness of leg and other things. I as a judge do not reward this, I stick to what the standard calls for and a bird must be balanced all around.

Anyway thanks for all the imput and I will forge ahead with my poject.

Heather

I Realize this is for Canadians not Americans I was just using the USDA as a example as it does have alot of influence
With Animal Welfare as for housing and care for Animals in Canada. as for the NPIP I was asking if the certificating program you are talking about is going to have the Poultry NPIP Tested aand was just trying to say how it is done there and was wondering if it is done the same or could be done here with Testers not having to use the Vet's.
I wish you all the luck with the project as I am sure there are many that will be involved

Joe

I am not sure how I feel about this. Part of what I like about breeding chickens is that I can do what I like and don't have to follow what someone else thinks is best. I read the Standard and decide how best to go about getting the product I want in line with that.
This worries me a bit that it may go the way of other registered types of animals. I certainly don't think it was the best thing to happen to many of the working breed of dogs. Even though many working breeds test for herding ablility (I am not sure the real name of the test) I can assure you they would not last out here as a working dog.

I like the buyer beware atmosphere of the chook world. It makes the people that want to learn, learn quickly. I have bought my fair share of crap and have been taken by so called 'reputable' breeders. You learn quickly where to go, who to talk to and especially what questions to ask if you really want to.

Like I say I am not against it (at this stage ) but have some concerns about it. Just not sure what I think I suppose and need to hear more.

Sorry Joe didn't mean too sound cranky if that was how it came across. There are not too many people involved and no grovernment agency's. But I am looking at how to work around the health issue part as we are very different from the U.S. at any rate this has given me idea or two as obviously given our ecomonic situation in this country none of us can afford to pay much more out than we do already for feed etc.

This is just a little project as I like to continue to help people aqiure and keep poultry the best they can. This will take most of the winter for me too work though so will get back to everyone when I have something more concrete.

Thanks again for all the views.
Heather

Maybe a change of words would make a difference too.

Certification is very formal and sounds like a guarantee with strict regulations to comply to.

Is there another word that would say that this flock meets certain criteria. A sort of "Code of Ethics" sort of thing, something that one adheres to but not a certification program.

It isnt the right word, but it would sort of be like belonging to a specific group, the group being based on adhering to the regulations.

I know there is a word that is on the tip of my tongue.... dang.... it isnt certificated but it is close.... sheesh....

We may have some concerns here about the health standards as we tend to avoid medications and vaccinations unless necessary. We have family members working in health care fields that do not believe that flu shots are healthy.