Livestock Guardian Dog Advise

I think I may have finally located a purebred Akbash puppy (well they are not born yet but have located a breeder), so my question is what is a better fit? Another male to go with the male we have now, or a female and get one of them fixed since we are not interested in breeding?
Our male is very good with our other two male dogs (a herding dog and a JRT), the guardian is not fixed but the other two are. He is more timid than most intact males are so thinking he would do ok with another male, but don't want to have them constantly battling either.

I brought home a 2 year old Maremma last year. Already on the farm were a spayed adult female and 3 males, not neutered. At first I kept the Maremma tied up away from the main farm life. The other dogs did not mind him much. When I felt he knew he was "home" I untied him. He and the Maremma cross fought a fair bit, but became friends once they determined the pecking order. I still have Harley, the Maremma, but lost the spayed female and both adult males to the highway.

Introducing an unspayed female to a pack where there are several in tact males is somewhat tricky. Immediately they vie for dominance to determine who will breed her. This can lead to some gory fights and can be problematic even if the female is spayed in some packs. It will be determined by the nature of the dogs. Either can work.

I have three in tact males, a Maremma, Maremma/Pyr/Akbash/Anatolian cross and a border collie and have just gotten two 12 week old female Maremma puppies. Because they are babies, they should be no problem once they grow up, but I intend to get the border collie neutered as he is the top dog despite his size. Border collie crossed with livestock guardian can be a bad dog...round em up, then kill. Not all crosses are that way of course, but I did have one who was and had to be put down at 2 because he bit 2 people.

If you do not plan to breed the dogs, then the female might be fine once she is spayed early. Otherwise, you might consider another male. My friend has 5 male Maremmas and they scrap occasionally, but are good with each other overall. Good luck with that.

I have no problems between males and males, and no problem between females and males. I can run all my males together unless there is a female in season. All my animals are intact. Most of my issues occur when there are girls together. They don't call them bitches for nothing!

Now, this may be different for other breeds or even lines within the breed. I would talk to the breeder of your pup and see what they suggest.

Schipperkesue wrote:I have no problems between males and males, and no problem between females and males. I can run all my males together unless there is a female in season. All my animals are intact. Most of my issues occur when there are girls together. They don't call them bitches for nothing!

Now, this may be different for other breeds or even lines within the breed. I would talk to the breeder of your pup and see what they suggest.

We have the same experience here. We have run 5 whole males here at one time. They know better than to fight. There is a little grumbling when I female is in season. One of our bitches is a bit of a terror. Rules the boys, is quite anti social (sits off by herself alot) and regularly beats up the other females when she is far enough away from me that I don't deal with her right away. She knows it is wrong and she will get into trouble, but it doesn't stop her.

Jayme
A Akbash is a very noble breed good choice
With 2 males you will have some dominance issues 1 will end up submissive to the other
I would get a female and have her spayed
why take the chance of having 2 males fight and not be doing their jobs

Joe

I don't have any Akbash-specific experience, but I do have two Maremmas. My spayed female is very dominant, while the neutered male (younger by four years) is very submissive. I would spay/neuter your new dog AND your existing dog, regardless of what gender you choose.

Hidden
The Akabash is the most wonderful breed. We had one for 11 years and he was the best hired hand on the place plus worked for dogfood. "Chip" was incredibly bonded to his sheep and in the 11 years we had him we never lost a lamb to predators, he was amazing to say the least, very hard on coyotes as he could run like the wind and once caught would tear them to pieces. We would often find half of the coyote on either side of the fence a "Chip" warning I would guess, can't say enough good things about the breed. He guarded 50 Ewes for us plus lambs. Chip was a neutered male.

"Off to judge the Old English Jamorree this morning in North Caolina"

Heather

Thanks everyone for the Advice, I will think on it. Since the female is not due for a couple more weeks I have time to decide. My hubby wants a boy of course, and I have had females (in a different breed before) and agree that the two males might bond and become better guards. My biggest issue is getting them fixed, my hubby doesnt think that a guard can be a good guard unless he is whole...The animals fixed around here are solely mine, so I made up my mind and I got them done.
He does agree that the boy we have now is not a good breeding male, he has his faults, is already stiff in the back end at 3 years old, but still wont have him fixed. A bonus about getting a female is he would agree to fix this boy we have now so that there was not accidental puppies. But the more I think of it the more I think we should go for another male.

Heather so glad to hear you had an Akbash and loved him. I have only had the one experience with the breed personally, and he is a neutered male and awesome guard, but lots of ready has proved these are the dogs I want to try out, so hoping the pup grows up to be a great guard for us.

I think sometimes you get a personal preference for what sex of dog you choose. I prefer a female dog myself.

I get along with female dogs better too. I think we are more aligned tempermentally.

I have a male LGD and he's fixed and does his job really well, and is also very friendly with people, and as important, my other dogs (all fixed). They have inbred territoriality and their hormones shouldn't do much except cause them to want to wander if there's a bitch in season within 100 miles.

I would get a female fixed. You want to avoid unwanted puppies? There is only one sure way to do it. Get them both fixed and they'll be happy to do their jobs together, and you won't have to worry about the neighbour's dog coming in breed.

I am an advocate for spay/neuter. I dont have any experience with LDG but I have recently cared for 2 dogs age 8 and 10 that were presented on emergency for pyometra. The 8 year old was a chi that also had a mass on her ovary and required a blood transfusion 2 days post op. She recovered well. The other dog was a 10 year old golden retriever. The dog ended up going septic and 2 weeks in hospital and $13,000 bill the dog went home. She was just like a case out of House. The spays at a young age were definatly cheaper in the long run. I know Jamie you know this too. They dont need those parts!

I would also recommend getting either sex stomached pexied while they are young a GDV is something else you will want to avoid. It can be done same time as spay.

My two cents.

wow! Maybe I am a little naive about coyotes but I couldnt imagine having a dog whose job was to to tear coyotes to shreds.
We have 4 dogs, 3 intact males and 1 spayed female and they chase coyotes on a regular basis but even when they catch up to them, the worst I have seen them do, is shoulder them over and knock them down, rough them up a bit and the coyote takes off on the run.
Ours are however, herding dogs and not LGDs which of course is what the thread is about so doesnt really apply.
and I can see it would be different with a flock of sheep as you need them protected round the clock wherever they are grazing.
I view the coyotes (around here at least)as scavengers and opportunists who wont work any harder than they have to to get a meal and so far, maybe we have just been lucky, but it seems to be enough to have chase dogs that chase them away, not attack them.

Miry you wouldnt believe how bold some coyotes will get. My inlaws dog has come home after the night of patrol with more than his fare share of scars on him, so we know he does do some damage to them and they fight back. The dog before this one they found in the field fending off 6 coyotes! And he would pick one up and fling him off and then another, until there was one left and then it took off, my FIL is sure he would have persued if he wasnt there calling him back.
Our boy is more like your dogs Miry, he will chase them off but have yet to see him take any on, which is good. Most coyotes are like you say they will take an easy meal, but if they pack up which they have been doing around here lately they can do some damage for sure.

Miry I should clarify my respone to Hidden lest you think our dear Chip Dog was a raving killer.
After careful research when I got my first 5 Ewes we purchased "Chip" as a 9 month old from a breeder of LDG working stock. We spoke at length many times with his breeder who lived in Prince George and she actually had 3 for sale all working with their parents in Bear and cougar country watching over and protecting their large flock. She was very careful to chose the dog that would work best with our expreince which was none except for our spoiled house dogs. The day he arrived my first Ewes were lambing and he went to work. We had him neutered about 2 weeks later.

We had many calls back and forth to the breeder the first year and one thing we learned was to let him bond to his flock and not us. He liked us and was a gentle boy with his sheep girls and lambs and would have given his life for them that was apparent to us and all who knew and admired him. We were fenced in such a way that he never came to the house and our dogs (4) never had contact with him. We were also fenced so that in order for some dog or coyote to get in they would have to go under the fence which was hot wired down below on the complete 50 acre permiter fence but from time to time wildlife would breach it due to a number of factors (deer jumping etc) coyotes are very cunning and seem to know some how. At any rate he never in the 11 years left our property and everyone in the neighbourhood kept there dogs home, so no problem except to the coyotes and foxes. "Chip was only doing what his instincts told him and that was to protect his sheep and lambs at all cost.I have many pictures of him eating his dinner and a bantam chicken or 2 helping him. So sweet.

He was very gentle and in the spring when the lambs were being born we had many kids out to see them and he would come for pets but would soon tire of it and go back to his "girls". It was rather nice as he was never demanding of attention from us like our housedogs, he was a working dog. I must admit it was hard for us to adjust to that way of thinking but his breeder drilled it in our heads he was not a pet.

Chip" to us was totally not replaceable and at 11yrs of age we had to put him to sleep due to a shoulder injury, he was a very large dog at 160 lbs of lean muscle and tall. He was moving with us to B.C as it was at that time but instead 1 week before our move we only had his ashes which are in a container buried with our other pets in a place of honour in my front flower bed. A better dog their never was.

Heather

Aw, Heather. I have tears.

Chip sounds like the perfect Dog Heather!! It's nice to hear stories about dogs who do their job as they were intended for. We to often hear about how working dogs aren't worth a hill of beans and end up getting passed around from home to home.
Some of it is probably due to poor breeding. You see it more than often in Lab's, for example. That retrieving instinct is lost! Instead, people try to breed for the show ring instead of what they were intended for! And from what I see and hear, it is a bigger problem with the guardian dogs. Especially when people are crossing mutts and charging an arm and a leg for a dog that doesn't have the protective instincts bred into them.

Oh and by the way, a good coyote is a dead coyote not a scared one!!!

Dark Wing
There are still people that breed a dog to do what they are meant to do and also that same dog shows in the dog shows.
I use to have German Short Hair and Wire Haired Pointers that we got their gun dog Championships on and then Their Conformation Championships on
There are people that show their Pry's and they also use them as livestock guards.
I know people that raise Border collies that herd also. Plus Australian Shepard's and Collies that have their herding certificates as well as their Championships.
Also have a friend in Moose Jaw That shows her Lab's to their Championships and her Husband Hunts with them.
All I am saying is they are out there if a person just looks and ask's questions
I do have to agree with you that alot of people are breeding alot of mixed breeds and asking big prices for them and I have never been able to figure out why people will pay that for a mutt.
This is just my opinion but I have shown dogs for over 30 years now and sometimes digs about show dogs gets to me so it is nothing against you
Joe

appway wrote:Dark Wing
There are still people that breed a dog to do what they are meant to do and also that same dog shows in the dog shows.
I use to have German Short Hair and Wire Haired Pointers that we got their gun dog Championships on and then Their Conformation Championships on
There are people that show their Pry's and they also use them as livestock guards.
I know people that raise Border collies that herd also. Plus Australian Shepard's and Collies that have their herding certificates as well as their Championships.
Also have a friend in Moose Jaw That shows her Lab's to their Championships and her Husband Hunts with them.
All I am saying is they are out there if a person just looks and ask's questions
I do have to agree with you that alot of people are breeding alot of mixed breeds and asking big prices for them and I have never been able to figure out why people will pay that for a mutt.
This is just my opinion but I have shown dogs for over 30 years now and sometimes digs about show dogs gets to me so it is nothing against you
Joe

Joe, we have always called that a balanced dog. One with titles on both ends. I haven't put an obedience title on my dogs for years. I think my dogs are heavily unbalanced.

My first Schip was CH Brilliant Nova O'Marpeg CD HIC TT. She was a balanced dog. iI know you know what these titles mean, Joe, but for others, CH stands for conformation champion, CD is companion dog in obedience, HIC was herding instinct certificate and TT was temperament tested.

Schipperkesue wrote:One with titles on both ends. .....for others, CH stands for conformation champion, CD is companion dog in obedience, HIC was herding instinct certificate and TT was temperament tested.

I'm so glad you clarified that Sue. I was wondering what kind of dog owners need a title for "Front" and "Back" ends ...but now I get it.

Hi Jayme, As you already know I have had three girls together for years and all intact and they got along fine although they still had a pecking order but many breeders say that the best combination is a boy and a girl , the second best is two girls and the worst is two boys but they were generally talking about intact dogs. Since you already have two boys , if you were to get a girl I would most certainly have her fixed so that she would be less enticing to the boys. I have never had a fixed girl so I don't know if that would be the answer but I am partial towards girls and always have been even before getting my first girl dog or should I say B-Otch.

We use to have South Russian Ovtcharkas(aka Wolf Killers), very agressive LGD breed, we could never keep more then one female without big fights(males oddly enough got along if intact), and if it wasnt "intact"(either male or female) it was killed by the others for being "sick".
Awesome breed to have, very loving to "their" people, or anything baby. Problem is they do not hesitate going for the throat of both predator and stranger who dare goe past your gate without you with them..... Altho, our South Russians appearantly were too nice for the breed because in the behaviour test in the show ring the judge took off points if he could touch the dog without being growled at. We get lots of visitors so we socialized them LOTS.
We only brought the female with us to Canada, and she was 13 at the time. Never seen her do much other then lay on the porch but after she died at 15 yrs old Coyote activity went thru the roof again.

We suffered thru it for 3 yrs before we said enough is enough and got another LGD(altho not a russian even tho my mother begged, its just too agressive of a breed for here without an 8 ft perimeter fence so she doesnt eat the joggers).

Sasha we found thru a small town newspaper driving around southern alberta looking at LGD litters.
He was 10 weeks old, Dad was a huge pure Akbash(which had to be contained first before you left the vehicle) and the mother a maremma that guards about 150 sheep.

Well, he wasnt socialzed to people at all, but we force cuddled him so to speak and he has been on coyote patrol since he was about 20 weeks old. Best dog ever, loves being in the presents of people but doesnt need the touchy feely thing. He does come in the house and demands his morning scratches from my dad ON the couch(who knew such a big white dog can curl up on a persons lap like one of those little jappy furry oversized rodents).

He is intact still, his is a quiet dominance that doesnt need more then a look to establish. Doesnt roam or anything. He isnt bonded to any particular livestock(after the sheep beat the tar out of him that relationship was over) but if we introduce it to him it seems to be part of the family and gets protected no matter what. Very much like our south russians, if you bring it onto the property and introduce it to him it must be family and is accepted, if it wanders on the place on its own it gets a bite in the rear.

Now we have an 8 month old intact male Akbash/Kuvaz/Maremma as well, since we didnt want to have war between the males again -our last bearded collie bitch we brought with us from Germany finally died last year and our neutered black lab has not picked a fight with the intact Ak/Mar since, thank goodness, that lab is a stupid bugger, picks a fight even tho he gets pinned in one quick motion by Sash every time---


Sam(the "puppy") so far has no protecting instinct(other then sitting indoors barking at noises outside), only thing he knows(and he grew up with sheep and both his parents work sheep) is that my sheep are the devil re-incarnated and avoids them as much as possible(he dared to go in their pen when I had my hands full and he got beaten to a pulp by them).
Not sure how big of a help he will be to Sasha when the time comes, he was intended as back-up since the yodel dogs come at sasha in packs of 6-8 individuals now and Sash lost part of his tail this spring in a fight with them.
They do get along great tho and he follows Sash everywhere during the day, just a chicken in the dark..... maybe he will turn into the day-shift, since he has gotten a bit more serious in the last month Sash allows himself longer sleeps(after a night shift he usually comes in to crash for a few hours every morning) under the kitchen table while sam sleeps outside.