Roasters aren't broilers! And while we're at it, most ducks aren't 7 week old Pekins!

Im satisfied with the size and quality of my processed Chantecler,Buckeye and these Black Copper Maran roos definitely have my attention now. Of course there is room for improvement always but Im in no way disappointed by having to wait for good things to happen. At 16 weeks they are still gaining stature, by 26 they are good and ready for whatever you want, wait a bit longer yet and they fill out to leftovers for a few dinners. The hens are good layers, chanties giving me very light brown almost white, Grade A eggs. Would I like to get the same weights at 16 instead of 26? You bet, but it has to happen naturally through healthy breeding practices that Im learning about and investigating. In reading the old poultry books I find repeated claims that any breed you pick to fancy can be bred up to the best of production standards. Brahmas can lay as well as a leghorn if selected for those traits, a leghorn can give meat enough if selected and bred well. Max heterosis in my eyes is a bad goal to strive for, especially for the birds in question. Something I learned well long ago is that this world gives(GIVES) us what we need without money, food is a free gift of life take what you need, you cant have everything you want...that costs more, alot more.

Country Thyme Farm wrote:Look, I'm really enjoying watching this conversation play out.

I realise that you two are mortal enemies or whatever, trunorth and OBF. Honestly Trunorth, stop taking everything so personally and settle down a bit, if you can't stop calling Wayne names this perfectly good discussion is going to end up getting shut down. OBF, you know full well how she reacts every single time you call her out and at this point it's starting to look like you keep posting just to get her all worked up, Isn't it getting a bit old yet? I'd be pretty bored with it by now myself.

I agree.......

Country Thyme, what ever happened to personal responsibility? I will concern myself with what I write but certainly not hold myself responsible for how another reacts. Each individual is responsible for what they write here and how they personally react to what is written.

Gris means grey in French,

Hubbard, it's reps, and customers seem to call both parent stock and end products as Master Gris, which would explain inconsistent colour descriptions. For instance, one source in the US states "The Master Gris, like all commercial birds is an end product (MG cock x RBM hen) and has been bred to be slaughtered." However, one of Hubbard's products is as described by the previous poster.

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Basically, hatcheries custom order by choosing the male and female lines and then market the resulting designer meat birds under whatever name they choose.


Of the F2 Master Gris I saw from Ev, 50% of the birds were barred and 50% were black. The Gris she received were clearly hybrids. Despite initially being promoted as an "improved" barred rock, they had white skin rather that yellow and had a conventional meat bird body type.

As for concerns over libel, it's my legal understanding that it would be the person who created the Mistral Gris story that could feel they have a libel claim against me. It has been stated here that the story originated with a Penn state Amish farmer so I'm wondering why a lawyer representing a BC resident would be involved. At any rate, I'm not hiding behind anonymity and am quite comfortable standing by my statements.

AuntieEvil I'd love it if you would start a new thread on sausage making Island Girl and I are planning on using some FR and Turkey meat to make sausages. We've never done this before so it could be interesting. It would be great if you could help us out, please.

Do you think we're so obsessed with bigger birds because of feed conversion, or because everyone is so used to "Supersized" portions?

Rabbit sausage is not so bad ether

I dont know where the Mistral Gris
is from but really who cares
Who ever named it they can call it what they want. It is no different then Me calling my Americuna / Maran crosses Olive Eggers
or OBF calling the Turkeys Qualicum Bronze Turkeys
They are all a cross that we have done to improve on something
If people dont like each other that is their problem not the groups problem This has been a great post as it has shown alot of the peoples true colors. I have also found alot of information on it.
as for the Mistral Gris I doubt I will ever have any as My crosses make fine meat birds as well as the Heritage birds.
I am getting Some Delawares and I have 1 Barred Rock Hen that I am crossing them with so in the Future I will have Moosomin Meaties for sale LOL
anyway lets keep it nice and not have it a cat fight as I enjoy coming here to read

Joe

debbiej wrote:AuntieEvil I'd love it if you would start a new thread on sausage making Island Girl and I are planning on using some FR and Turkey meat to make sausages. We've never done this before so it could be interesting. It would be great if you could help us out, please.

Do you think we're so obsessed with bigger birds because of feed conversion, or because everyone is so used to "Supersized" portions?

I am sorry I won't be much help with sausage making, as I plan to learn this year myself. Guru Google and I will fumble through to be sure -lol Now I'll happily take advice from others -hint -hint!
Hopefully a combo of goat, chicken and pig will make a nice mix. Perhaps after grinding a full goat, 30 birds and some pork by hand, I'll change my mind and never bother again. Either that, or buy an electric grinder.
Worst case, I read that seasoned meat formed into patties makes a nice alternative to sausage. The idea of smoked sausage is too tempting to pass up though, perhaps I can smoke the burgers??
I like the bigger birds because I am lazy and only want to clean one bird, not two. Plus I can buy 35 MKs in the spring for under $40. That's only 3 weeks food for overwintering heritage birds. With feed costs so high, it just makes the most economic sense for us, to buy chicks in the spring. Plus the barn is not set up the best yet, and so many birds end up really making a terrible mess of the goats, the hay and the barn in general. Until we have time to organize the barn, the number of birds has to be reduced. The plan is always for 15-20, and I end up with 50, since the little ones just don't make sense to butcher, so they end up staying. This does not happen with MKs....

Way way back to the beginning of the thread...I think it's wonderful that some folks got their love of chickens from raising Cornish crosses. Whatever got you here, I'm happy that it did. Myself, the one time I did work with commercial boilers could have just about turned me off poultry forever if there weren't also heritage chickens and muscovies there as well for me to see on that farm.

As for heterosis (hybrid vigour) I just have not found it to be as reliable as some seem to think it is. Often, the results are actually smaller than the original parents. If my understanding is correct, you have to do some pretty specific inbreeding to get reliable results and my biggest personal beef with this is that I actually think it unethical to subject the parent lines to something so detrimental to their individual wellbeing. This is personal opinion, I do not place judgement on anyone working in this direction.

My original intent with this thread was actually to point out the product difference between q broiler and a roaster. The chicken meat industry has quite successfully redefined roaster as being a size category, which I believe to be absolutely incorrect. The age it takes to get a satisfying roasting fowl from a heritage chicken generally tends to take so long that it changes the taste and texture profiles to such an extent that I no longer consider the two to be comparable in any way.

Trunorth, if people used to make fun of chicken being rubbery, it has just been replaced with people making fun of chicken for being tasteless. I would prefer the former myself.

...then again, maybe I should just listen to piet and eat more rabbit!

OK, Country Thyme, I am still waiting for an explanation of the second part of your title...or maybe I didn't read carefully enough. What about the ducks?

and along with the ducks I'm interested in opinions on the taste or perceived differences in full grown layers which typically may be >3 years old. So far people have only discussed/defended the male heritage breeds.

I have grown these guys out too (Rhode Islands) and I don't think it's worth it. Someone looked down his nose recently and even made a point of not supporting culling day old male chicks. Outside that bubble, people breeding layers simply don't want excess roosters for a variety of reasons. Personally I don't have a preference for the taste of either heritage or broiler meat but I'd much rather raise the more versatile meat of cornish giant chicks. I support any farmer who chooses to raise heritage roosters for consumption but for a number of reasons that feather does not tickle my fancy at all.

Chenais wrote:and along with the ducks I'm interested in opinions on the taste or perceived differences in full grown layers which typically may be >3 years old. So far people have only discussed/defended the male heritage breeds.

Have never eaten any bird that has been over 2.5 years old but yes I've eaten full grown layers that had fulfilled their purpose. Their meat is usually a little tenderer than a rooster the same age. i have never raised any type of meat bird purposefully for slaughter. All of my butchering experience comes from my heritage dual purpose roosters or hens. I also butcher bantam roosters as although they have a smaller size the ratio of meat is still quite good for a one person meal.
As for ducks, the Saxony drakes we raise up have a very good sized carcass in the fall, although they are a heavy type duck. I have never tried butchering a smaller sized duck.

I was going to let a comment slide but a friend suggested not correcting may leave a false impression. Someone here suggested that TruNorth is my mortal enemy. She is not, she is not even my enemy. Not even close. We share a difference of opinion, I fail to see the logic of making it out to be more than that.


Another person I share a difference in opinion with is, over the practice of needless killing of day-old chicks. Again, nothing more than a differing viewpoint. And one where I'm clearly in the minority. The simple fact is that almost all backyard layer flocks are produced by this very practice.

It's interesting to ask backyard flock owners what inspired them to start a flock. In my neck of the country, two factors appear to be the primary motivators.

1) People are looking for healthier food options and simply don't trust the food industry.

2) People are concerned about animal welfare issues surrounding industrial food production.

With this in mind, I think it is pretty safe to say that the majority of backyard flock owners would not support day-old chick killing if given the choice. However, current supply & demand pretty much denies them the opportunity to make that choice. I firmly believe that re-learning how to produce and cook heritage poultry meat is key to providing backyard flock owners with the choice to not support day-old chick killing. Our meat sales have a direct relationship to how many pullets I'm willing to make available to the market.

However, marketing heritage poultry meat has many barriers with the loss of traditional husbandry and cooking skills being a primary factor. Some have suggested that they prefer conventional chicken, but I wonder how many of those opinions were formed after taking the time to learn how to produce and cook quality heritage meat. I will suggest that it wasn't the meat that failed, but instead the methods used to prepare the meat. Like the title says, broilers are not roasters ... at least not traditionally.

Ok, so getting back to the reason for this thread...

Traditionally, what is a broiler and what is a roaster?
How was each to be cooked?

Commercially, what is a broiler and what is a roaster?
How is each to be cooked?


Still confused and ready for answers

TruNorth wrote:But before you get pouty that people won’t turn back the clock, contemplate a little history... a reality check on chicken eating:
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Look at those carcasses that won the competition! Listen to what market researchers discovered that housewives of that era wanted. (Look at the wax model – no plastic in those days!)

Well, I took the time and watched the video, about 17 minutes worth and what an interesting contest for the Chicken of Tomorrow!! Loved it and it was full of interesting stuff. Recommend that people take the time to watch. Thanks TruNorth, a good one!! Have an awesome day, CynthiaM.

Arcticsun wrote:Ok, so getting back to the reason for this thread...

Traditionally, what is a broiler and what is a roaster?
How was each to be cooked?

Commercially, what is a broiler and what is a roaster?
How is each to be cooked?


Still confused and ready for answers

The article I linked in the original post details how to cook the different types, they also include fryers and stewing fowl.

Commercially, what the poultry meat industry calls roasters are just bigger and only a couple of weeks older. They have successfully redefined broiler and roaster to be size categories in the eyes of the general public. Since the meat is almost identical in composition both are still best cooked as a broiler at very high temperatures, though both commercial types will stand up to roasting, they do have a tendency to collapse more easily.

Schipperkesue wrote:OK, Country Thyme, I am still waiting for an explanation of the second part of your title...or maybe I didn't read carefully enough. What about the ducks?

Partly I just didn't want to leave them out because I like ducks better than chickens. Then again, I should not have left out Turkey's either.

With all three classes of fowl, the industry focus has been on two things almost to the exclusion of all else: growth rate and carcass proportion. In the latter case, all fowl are being bred to produce abnormally large amounts of breast meat for the age of the bird. In the case of ducks, the pekin breed has been the focus of this. This is so that they can butcher at 7-8 weeks before the juvenile moult begins, otherwise you have to wait another 4 week's at least to get good butcher quality because of all the pinfeathers. As a result, just like with commercial boilers, you get a fairly untextured meat with a fat layer that is underdeveloped and hence considered greasier, though I suppose technically leaner.Works great for a lot of east Asian cuisine because it suits their palate. An older duck has more flavour and texture, which unfortunately in popular culture translates to "gamey". You get a similar difference in heritage Turkey's as well, as the older birds have that texture and well developed fat layer.

Heritage poultry cuisine, in my opinion is all about the fat. I have little interest in lean meat, and as darkwing duck said earlier, this part really is a personal preference thing.

It wasnt until recent times that broiler and roaster were sizes of birds. I think this is the big thing people have trouble with. I can remember when I was young, a broiler was a bird that could be cooked at a higher temp and faster cooking time (BBQ'ing), but roasting at say 300 in the oven for 6 hours you would have what resembles a melted carcass as it falls apart. A roaster was a bird that had to be cooked slower and at lower temps or it would be too tough. A roaster couldnt be BBQ'd. Now, I LOVE BBQ and have found ways to make my home grown "roasters" BBQ with little toughness. Now, the biggest difference for a grower of poultry is the time put into the bird. The younger the bird the better broiler it will make. Now, for the home grown cross, that makes it harder to attain as it takes longer for them to get a decent amount of meat on them. I noticed my home grown crosses will get meatier faster by adding dairy into their daily diet. So, do to the differences and peoples life styles, most can not cook a bird slower. Just not the time in the day. That is where the popularity of the "franken-chicken" comes from. The cornish crosses grew faster in a much shorter amount of time and were softer meat birds so they were good for the broiling style. The fast and high temp cooking methods.

Atleast this is my take on it.

And as a side note, (for a general home grown cross) if you cook your chicken longer at around medium temp on the grill after allowing it to set unfrozen (in the fridge is fine) for a few days (I do 3) it will be a softer meat. Also dairy helps, I give all my birds milk, especially right before butchering. It will build a nice fat layer on them giving you more leeway in the meat. If you put a layer of olive oil on the chicken before cooking it then it cooks off in the grilling process, but doesnt allow the skin to burn. It will also keep any seasoning on the bird while you cook it.