Guardians gone bad!

K this may be a long one. When we moved to our acreage in February we brought with us a 6 yr old female Border Collie who belonged to a friend of ours. She is a lovely dog who is very intelligent. Shortly after we picked up a 4 1/2 mo. Pyrenees cross male. A large boy raised around other animals. Our chickens free range the yard and we have never had a problem... until now.

Over the last few months the Collie has been attempting to "herd" our pigs. She goes in their pen and nips their heels trying to keep them back from the fence while I dump the feed into their trough. Over the last three weeks she has become more aggressive while doing so and is resistant to listen when I tell her to heel. I said to my hubby week an a half ago that it may be time to look into some type of training for her as I do not have the slightest clue how to train a dog to herd. This is her first farm experience so thought the animals were bringing out her instincts?

So... back to my issue. Two weeks ago a chicken was missing, she was going blind so I figured she had gotten lost and couldn't find her way back. Then another and another and another. Both dogs are white so I inspected them closely and found no evidence of fowl play. We thought maybe the neighbors dogs or a small predator was being brave and coming into the yard during the day.

I ran to town a couple days ago and came home to bust my dogs having themselves a little Leghorn snack I know for a fact that the Collie is the instigator as the pup is too young and dumb to know to be sneaky about it. They even ate the feathers! And show no signs of aggression when we are around. I have decided to try and re-home the Collie or put her down if we have no luck with re-homing. So sad

I have become quite attached to the pup but not to the point I will allow him to run around snacking on chickens. Keeping him chained forever is not fair. The Collie has also killed two of our cats(one was pregnant). I feel she is the problem and pup is just up for a snack and he has always followed her lead since the day we brought him home.

What I am wondering is if anyone thinks that I may break the pup of this(with the Collie being gone)? I have always been told once they get the taste of blood that's it they will always kill. Hubby thinks he may be young enough(7 mo) to learn different? I am not feeling so positive on this thought and wondered if anyone here has a thought or opinion on this?

Give him a chance, but be prepared to yell, spank, shoot with a paint ball gun whatever you need to get your point across. My boy had a female friend show up here and he really liked her. She on the other hand really liked my meaties which free range. He helped eat four and I politely got rid of the stray. He tried to eat another chicken the next day and my nice big white dog is now yellow from paint balls. He now will lay there znd the chickens actually sit on his back and he won't touch them. I won't fully trust him for a while and he thinks his owner is a paintball wielding banshee as while I was shooting him I was screaming Tug no as soon as he let the chicken go I quite yelling and shooting. It can be done but warning if you have close neighbors you may be considered weird! Lol

if you are willing to put in the effort, there is no reason you can't have success with your big dog. the old idea that once a dog has tasted some kind of blood is an old wife's tale. there are no majic qualities about blood that have any impact on a dog's mind. it is simply a matter of a dog trying it's first chicken (or any other snack) and going back for more. it does not matter if the snack is an animal or the garbage. the effort was rewarded (with the snack) so is likely to be repeated. training can solve your issue.

I had a Black Lab who came from a winning field trial line (very strong retrieving instincts). It took a few birds, but even she learned to leave the chickens alone.

I agree training will work.
When we were training our first LGD he would snack on new things, we always joked to buy one extra so the big guy could learn.
We were smarter with our next dog, we wouldnt allow him to roam when we were not out there or if the birds were free ranging. We found most predators come during the night so that is when we would let him roam free.
When we started to let him roam during the day we would constantly check on him, making sure that if anything was being "watched" that was to be "protected" he was disciplined. And same if he did get a hold of anything right away dicipline. It doesnt take those big guys long to learn not to touch their stock.

I have a Pyrenees x collie from the SPCA. Got her as a 2 or 3 yr old. There were a few times in the beginning of getting chickens and rabbits that she tried. Even crawled in they chicken door once and chased and slobbered on the hens etc. (no one died). But, she got in major trouble!
When my chicks were old enough to free range I was very worried about the dog. I tied her to the fence ten feet from free range chicken house, and she had to sit there for a few hours. I would give her a serious look and say "no, my chickens" every time she would pay them too much attention.

I think your biggest issue is the Collie. We have a year old Kelpie (an Australian herding dog) and she loves helping us move chickens. You have some work cut out for you, these dogs have been bred for hundreds of years to Chase Things. Herding isn't much more than directed, controlled chase instincts. Tara Higgins (Higgins RAT ranch) would probably be able to give you some advice, I know she runs a pack of heelers

Our chickens live in a fenced yard, and our Kelpie (her name is Gin) is only allowed in the pen when I want her help. If your free ranging your birds, my sugestion is keeping your Collie on a leash at all times unless you are directly supervising. If she's refusing to listen under direct supervision, dont let her off the leash. Start with a short leash, walking by the chickens. Others might have different advice, but we let Gin "look." The second she takes a step in their direction though, we correct. Then keep going untill your past the birds. Do that maybe once a night to start, anymore will just frustrait her. Not sure how much drive the Collie has, some dogs are just nuts with it and really do need to go to a working home. Others though, you can work with.

I dont think the pup will take after the birds on his own. Dogs are very pack oreinted, and he's looking to the older dog for leadership.

My two cents, and good luck!

.

I would either re-home the collie to a working home, where she can be trained and work with large animals, or not allow her to mingle with free range chickens. She just needs to learn and it is never too late. She has the instincts to herd, some collies can be aggressive with their herding nips, and chickens aren't the most herdable animal in the world. Once they draw blood or the animal starts causing a commotion, prey drive likely kicks in and voila - lunch. You can teach a dog with a prey drive to live with animals, but you have to be 100% on them, 100% of the time.

My VERY high prey drive doberman has been successfully trained to live with free range birds, even when unsupervised. She's never killed a single one. When we moved to the acreage, she was 4. The first time she went after a chicken she got pinned down and a spank on the bum. The second time she got the same treatment. (both followed with a stern "NO") She hates water, and we moved in summer, so while doing the chores it was pretty handy to have the hose around, she got the old water spray treatment for being too interested in the birds (ie: watching them and drooling, or following them intently, etc). Of note, is that she has got a VERY SOLID recall, I mean, I have the ability to call her off even if she is chasing a squirrel up the tree, she will stop on a dime and come back. This is from weeks of work with treats in-pocket, and praise for every step towards me rather then away from me. If she wasn't so good with her recall, she would have been leashed. So, I think it is possible to train your dog not to eat things that aren't her dinner, but you have to train her to do so, you can't just expect her to know her role on the farm, and ditto for the pup, who is in all likely hood just being a pup. You can also train them to leave the birds while using only positive training methods, such as reward for obeying "leave it", this is the method a friend used with her border collie x, she lost a lot more birds during the training process and it took longer, but still worked. Hope that helps!

A sincere thank you for all the input! Now I am not sure what to do with the Collie?

I have done some of the things suggested. She was taught to chase cats by her previous owner. Since moving here we have worked with her everyday for short periods of time bringing them together. She will not even lift her head when we are out and they come around. Cats seem to know this and almost taunt her by rubbing up against her when we are there. As soon as I turn my back she is after them despite continual dicipline.

She is very well fed and I do always carry treats in the pocket! As for exercise, we run her very long distances, to the point I worry she will drop dead before she will stop! She has an insatiable love of fetch and between me and five kids we play all day long.

I worry about MY abilities to train her. Most LG dogs I have been around were either trained or much less vigorous/determined. I have more experience with the football size house pet. I am feeling she is out of my league.

We took her because my son really liked her. When she came to us I made a commitment now thinking I did not know just how much of a commitment that was. She HAS been leashed since being busted except under supervision and at night. She is not too happy about it.

Nothing in our routine has changed and it is upsetting to not be able to pinpoint what has caused her change in behavior. Her interest in "pig herding" was aparent but the first time I really saw this new side was when my daughter had a basket of bunnies on the floor in our garage and Collie came to check them out. She looked in, her tail stopped wagging and she was focused. I told her NO and she tried poking her nose farther in the basket again enforced the NO she did not listen it was like I was not even there. She was diciplined but since then all heck has broken loose. She jumps five feet into trees chasing wild birds now. It's not that I expect her to know without training but why after all this time(cats excluded) am I seeing this change? She never did drool while watching the chickens nor followed them with any interest, she would nap in the coop while I did my chores. Why after four months of no issues Even the cats it went from a chase to a kill?

Anyway, I have some thinking to do on her. As for pup he will stay with us. Now knowing it is just another bad habit and nothing fresh blood related. I feel he is on a level I can work with. He is much more compliant in ways. I have broke him of tearing into garbage and a few other things, he is very eager to please me. Since the day he was busted he will not even go within 100 feet of the coop unless invited and still lays down when he gets about 20 feet away

Thanks again for the opinions and suggestions!
And Smoky I have been giggling all day thinking of you taking after Tug with the paintball gun!!

I am not sure what form of dicipline you use but sounds to me like the collie has now gained top dog spot in your family and that is why the attitude change. When she went deeper into the bunnies it should have been fast and swift punishment, those herding dogs are very keen and it doesnt take much for them to forget who is boss and start doing their own thing.
I think once you established who is boss things would turn around again for you. But if you feel she is too much work, then yes it is appropriate to find her a better suited home.

Hidden River wrote:I am not sure what form of dicipline you use but sounds to me like the collie has now gained top dog spot in your family and that is why the attitude change. When she went deeper into the bunnies it should have been fast and swift punishment, those herding dogs are very keen and it doesnt take much for them to forget who is boss and start doing their own thing.
I think once you established who is boss things would turn around again for you. But if you feel she is too much work, then yes it is appropriate to find her a better suited home.

Agreed! I have an Australian Shepherd (herding dog) and an Anatolian Shepherd (LGD) and both can go and lie down amongst the birds of all kinds when they are free ranging and be trusted alone. The Australian Shepherd can now put away turkeys, guineas, geese and chickens without nipping or snapping. But it took a while and it helps I am sure he is now old enough to show restraint when a bird flutters up in his face. Once he couldn't have done that. He did kill an escaping bird when he was younger and had to wear it dragging around his neck for a day. But he hates being shamed or punished and was past his 2nd birthday when the birds started free ranging. The LGD loved white silkies and licked a few to death (shock perhaps?) when a pup and killed a guinea trying to retrieve it but after much discipline and dragging him away from the pens he finally understood that the birds are all mine and therefore part of his guardian responsibilities. Now the only time the dogs scare the birds is when they roar through the flock chasing a crow or raven. In fact I could do with the LGD being more interested in the birds and guarding them from the foxes that are causing me grief right now.

But there was a time I thought I could never free range the birds, not ever - because of the dogs - and I could never let them near the pens even unaccompanied. It took a lot of constant vigilence and trying to catch the dogs before they started with the "death stare".

I've never been able to break the Anatolian of cat killing though.

I'm a great believer in knowing when I am overwhelmed though, and if this is all too much I think you might look at rehoming the border collie if you haven't already. It sounds like you have a lot on your plate already!

I agree with hidden and heda. Your collie is top dog and needs to be brought back down in rank. This will take a lot of time, patience, and quick discipline. It is something you have to be sure to be consistent about for her lifetime if you decide to keep her. It sounds to me like she can have a dominant personality and if you weaken in keeping her in her place she will quickly step up and take the dominant roll. Good luck with your dogs!! Hopefully everything works out for you

Hidden and Heda have given you some good info. Remember too, border collies aren't livestock guardians and don't share those instincts, they are herding jobs so their instincts say to chase chase chase and when you catch up, nip.

Good luck!