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antibiotics, cure or cause?

+6
coopslave
gubi
BriarwoodPoultry
KathyS
Nom_de_Plume
uno
10 posters

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1antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty antibiotics, cure or cause? Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:03 pm

uno

uno
Golden Member
Golden Member

"On another note (sort of another topic maybe) I do strongly feel that livestock antibiotic sales need to be regulated in Canada. They are horribly mis-used by commercial poultry and pig barns to the point where we are now facing the crisis of superbugs...bacteria which is resistant to antibiotics." quoted from KathyS

Okay...I'll leap in and start another thread. KathyS, I have to disagree with you, sort of.

Antibiotics are not the problem here. Farming practices are the problem here. Animals kept in ways that violate their natures, stresse them, crowd them and offend their instincts...THAT is what leads to sick animals and the overuse of antibiotics. But what needs to be regulated is NOT the use of antibiotics, but the way we keep animals! Remove what makes them sick (stupid housing/farming practices) and you remove much of the need for anitbiotics.

I think anitibiotic use is not the problem, but the symptom of a bigger problem. Therefore I disagree that antibiotic use should be tracked or regulated, other than people who chronically raise animals in ways that ensure their ill health, ought to be cracked on the knuckles. Food production needs to find its ethics again. I think we have lost our way.

This is a jump-off thread from the 'feed sellers collecting information' thread. Hope others toss their hat in the ring.

2antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty Re: antibiotics, cure or cause? Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:24 pm

Nom_de_Plume

Nom_de_Plume
Active Member
Active Member

One thing they noticed back in the 50's (I think) is that when they fed antibiotic feed to animals they grew bigger.
another interesting side note is they also noticed that the animals grew bigger better in dirtier environments
disgusting hey?

3antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty Re: antibiotics, cure or cause? Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:45 pm

KathyS

KathyS
Golden Member
Golden Member

Thank you Uno for opening this topic for discussion! This might have been a spin-off from another thread, but needs to be talked about.
I am so in agreement that commercial farming has got to change, but I don't think a rap on the knuckles is going to go very far to make that happen. I think this is one area where the government needs to step in. Why not regulate antibiotic use for livestock?

If my child has an ear infection, I cannot just go to the pharmacy to get her antibiotics, or at least nothing stronger than polysporin. I must get a prescription. This is so that antibiotic use is somewhat controlled and it helps guard against unintentional mis-use.

Most of us wouldn't be thrilled to have to pay a vet to write out a prescription if our chicks pick up a respiratory infection...but it would make people think twice about whether or not those antibiotics are really necessary, and help them choose the appropriate one to use.

But if intensive livestock operations were limited on the amount of antibiotics they were allowed to use, wouldn't that force them to change their practices? Wouldn't they have to become more conscious of things like overcrowding and be motivated to produce healthier, more naturally grown animals?

http://www.hawthornhillpoultry.com

4antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty Re: antibiotics, cure or cause? Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:16 pm

uno

uno
Golden Member
Golden Member

KathyS, I have pondered this topic many times, what would it take to change intense, factory farming and I just don't have an answer. I think the solution is multi-dimensional.

But before I even point a finger of blame at producers, I point the finger of blame at an ignorant (and by that I mean stupid and unknowing about the facts and reality) food buying public who are usually (forgive my bluntness) blithering idiots about where their food comes from and what is required to produce food.

Until the Canadian consumer is willing to pay what their food is worth, we will continue to have food producers who have divorced themselves from the well being of their livestock, in order to make a profit. When you can see a reasonalbe profit maybe producers will raise fewer animals and raise those few, better. I would hope.

I also think we need to cut out the middle man or change the way the middleman works. For example, a farmer sells his cow for x dollars per pound. But that cow is not sold to you for X per pound. Hell no! Some of that cow is ground beef at $5 a pound and some is prime rib at...sell a kidney to eat it. I think this is how farmers should be paid! If a 500 pound beed produces x pounds of primerib, farmer should be paid for that. And then the middle man can make an even across the board mark-up, but the middle man is making WAY TOO MUCH of the money in the current set up and I think it should be illegal. More farm gate sales and small outlets might leave more money in the hands of the farmer.

If these changes could happen, I HOPE the raising practices would change and the need for antibiotics, due to crowded, intensivley farmed animals, would ease up. But I am not convinced that restriction of antibiotics is the place to begin the correction...although I completely understand your thinking and do see merritt in forcing change from the producer end too. See...no easy answer here!

5antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty Re: antibiotics, cure or cause? Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:02 pm

BriarwoodPoultry

BriarwoodPoultry
Addicted Member
Addicted Member

Well! This answer is as easy as what came first, the chicken or the egg (yuk yuk yuk).

Antibiotics allow the disgusting, close quartered farming practices that are pretty normal on large scale farms. Without them, animals die. A huge contributing factor here is the whole concept of big pharma and how much they benefit from the use of antibiotic based farming.

You see, not only do they profit from selling antibiotics to farmers and feed companies, they also benefit from the evolution of superbugs that require the use of stronger, newer and more expensive antibiotics.

Super bugs (MRSA, etc) are a direct result (in my opinion) of the inappropriate use of antibiotics. They will continue to evolve as long as we inappropriately use antibiotics. What is improper use of antibiotics? Using them if you have not identified the bacteria you are trying to kill. Using them at the wrong dose, not using them the fully prescribed length, or otherwise not following directions.

A big part of the equation is as UNO said, due to people's lack of knowledge/care about where their food came from and how good or bad it is for them. Farming by these practices are businesses and have nothing to do with health of animals or humans, but only the bottom line and how much $$$ can we make.

Ahh, so much to say but I need to re-focus on my paper. It's due Friday you know! affraid

http://briarwoodpoultry.weebly.com

6antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty Re: antibiotics, cure or cause? Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:23 am

gubi


Member
Member

I would like to ad that most of the people on this site are guilty of using medicated feed too! Why do we need to feed medicated chick starter? This is no different then the commercial poultry farmer feeding medicated chick starter to his chicks!
There is people on these sites that import and use drugs from the US that aren't even approved in Canada.
If we are going to point fingers at the big bad factory farmers we might have to take a look at what we do ourselves first.
In Ontario on Dairy and Poultry farms every use of medication has to be documented and any medication that is used off label has to have a veterinary prescription.

7antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty Re: antibiotics, cure or cause? Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:19 am

coopslave

coopslave
Golden Member
Golden Member

Uno makes an interesting point about producers being paid better for their product. I think the problem is there is no incentive to do it right.

We are mainly a purebred operation raising bull calves for sale in the spring, but we do have commercial cattle as well.
Our commercial calves are born here on the ranch. We are very conscientious about antibiotics and they are used carefully here. The whole secret is space. Get the calves out of the muck and keep them dry and give them space.
We probably only have 60-80 commercial calves a year. They are grown on range, so lots of space there. Not cooped up in corrals and bucket fed. They travel with their mums for food and water.
We have a comprehensive vaccination program for both the cows and calves. I think this is were many small producers go wrong. I don't know how many times I have hear from people since we got back to Canada, that they do not vaccinate. That equals sickness and more drugs!
We do not use hormones and produce most of the fodder here for winter feed so we know what they are getting. The cows and growing calves get supplemented feed until they go to range.
We do not use herbicide or pesticides on the place either.

The reason for all this drivel is that when our calves go to auction we do not get a premium for caring how they are raised. They are sold with the calves that are not vaccinated, that maybe have had hormone implants, that are kept in less than ideal conditions. They are sold on weight. That is it. The bigger calves actually get less $ per pound than the smaller calves.

There really is no motivation to do it right. Our motivation is cause we know what right is and feel good about what we produce, but the buyers don't care. Some times the growers will start to look for your calves cause they know you do it right, but there is not monetary reward for it.

We are at the bottom of the production chain and that is the way it goes. It is frustrating sometimes, but it is the way it is.

I think antibiotics have to be available to producers. With almost 300 head, if we had to call the vet to come out every time we had a calf that needed treating we would not be producing food anymore. It is all about cost per head, but I think it has to be done responsibly.

I do feed medicated chick starter to my birds. The active ingredient in medicated feed is specific to cocci and I am ok with that. They only get it until they are 5-6 weeks and then they are on their own. I have never given my adult birds antibiotics. I house responsibly and cull for resistance. Survival of the fittest here.

Good topic. Just remember it is not just the big producers that are doing the wrong thing. Some of them are trying harder than others to do the right thing.

8antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty Re: antibiotics, cure or cause? Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:43 am

pfarms

pfarms
Full Time Member
Full Time Member

As per medicated chick starter, I do use it, why? I have no other choice here. No one in my area sales non medicated. I cant get it. I do grow and feed my own grains to my juvenile and adult birds. I grind it. However, having said that, my grinder is not fine enough to grind it to something that newly hatched chicks can eat with out choking. I have the choice of buying one or two bags of starter a year or a thousand I dont have for new disks (not even another grinder). Sometimes, it is not a matter of what we choose to feed, but have the ability to feed.

I will say that I do not think that super booster is given a bit much by some, but I do honestly believe it is because they do not fully understand the illness in their birds. I have given it once in the last two years and that was what my vet instructed after I had a bird attacked by a predator, but it survived. Said it would keep her from getting infection while she healed.

I do not use antibiotics on my animals if I dont have to and then only under a vet supervision, but that is my choice. I am not large scale either. Use of antibiotics on a large scale farm in my opinion is out of control. The cause? As Uno said, there are so many causes that contribute to the problem there is no one definite thing.

My husband works at a dairy part time to make ends meet. As soon as a cow calves they are given a shot, even if they show no signs of any illness. It is a mostly penicillin. It is a shot given and a uterine wash. Then when AI'd, the semen has penicillin with it too. These are normal practices. Apparently, this is one of the better and cleaner dairies. I have been there, it honestly scares me, I cant breath in that place. They have put down animals just because they dont want to take the time to heal a foot problem. So, would restricting antibiotics work? Probably not. More likely it would just lead to more breeding and more animals being put down instead of care properly for. Does there need to be a change? YES!!! There is no question, but that would take the whole community, not just a few that care.

http://dtfarm.webs.com/

9antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty Re: antibiotics, cure or cause? Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:12 am

HigginsRAT


Golden Member
Golden Member

.



Last edited by HigginsRAT on Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

http://www.wolven.ca/higgins/ratranch/

10antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty Re: antibiotics, cure or cause? Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:02 pm

uno

uno
Golden Member
Golden Member

When I rule the world..... Coopslave, in a perfect world, you would NOT take your finely and deliberately raised cattle to the same auction as the commoners. You would create and groom a market of customers who want YOUR beef for the fine and distinct way it is raised. You would develop PRIVATE buyers who would return, year after year, because they know the quality of your product and are willing to pay accordingly. I'm thinking that the differnce in price wouldn't even have to be that much more for you to see a pleasant profit (I might be wrong about that).

I would like to see the cultivation and development of auctions, for example, where only Ethically Raised animals can be run through and the prices start at a higher price. But you all have to vote for me to rule the world first. Queen Uno, Food Boss.

re: medicated chick starter. I used to use it because I was told my chicks would drop dead if I didn't. Then I quit using it because I ran out and guess what, no one dropped dead. I have even crunched up lay pellets so they are small enough for chicks, if I am out of starter. No one has died. Mind you, I raise very small batches in housing that allows them plenty of room. But I don't think a few weeks of medicated starter (I have NEVER used it more than a week) does any harm. It's when antibiotics are a common and regular part of your raising practices, its when your animals will DIE without them, that you have a problem. To my mind, antibiotics are a way to cure illness when it pops up, NOT to ward off death in animals that are constantly failing to thrive.

11antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty Re: antibiotics, cure or cause? Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:11 pm

HigginsRAT


Golden Member
Golden Member

.



Last edited by HigginsRAT on Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

http://www.wolven.ca/higgins/ratranch/

12antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty Re: antibiotics, cure or cause? Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:05 pm

coopslave

coopslave
Golden Member
Golden Member

pfarms wrote:

My husband works at a dairy part time to make ends meet. As soon as a cow calves they are given a shot, even if they show no signs of any illness. It is a mostly penicillin. It is a shot given and a uterine wash. Then when AI'd, the semen has penicillin with it too. These are normal practices.

That may be a common practise in the dairy industry, but I don't believe it is common in the beef industry. All our calves get 2 shots at birth. Both are vaccines for nasty things that can be very tough on calves and cause the overuse of antibiotics if they succumb to them.

We actually very rarely use penicillin here. There are other antibiotics that are much more effective. I don't understand giving antibiotics to a perfectly healthy animal. Keep em strong and keep em clean!

Thanks Uno, you have my vote for Queen of the World!! Very Happy

13antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty Re: antibiotics, cure or cause? Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:44 pm

pfarms

pfarms
Full Time Member
Full Time Member

I should have specified, that shot and uterine wash is all for the cow. Not the calves. The calves (to my knowledge) are only vaccinated.

http://dtfarm.webs.com/

14antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty Re: antibiotics, cure or cause? Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:17 pm

coopslave

coopslave
Golden Member
Golden Member

pfarms wrote:I should have specified, that shot and uterine wash is all for the cow. Not the calves. The calves (to my knowledge) are only vaccinated.

Oops, sorry, I must not have read that correctly. Our poor old girls don't get anything like that unless they get an infection from retained placenta.

15antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty Re: antibiotics, cure or cause? Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:04 am

CynthiaM

CynthiaM
Golden Member
Golden Member

As Coopslave said, yes, Uno, you be that Queen of the World (although some of your friends tease you as Princess, smiling).

Great topic. Something I would like to see a post on was the paper on the Mareks discussion about B type blood and chickens, someone know anything about this? It was in the article on Mareks. Beautiful days, CynthiaM.

There are certain 'B factors' contained in the blood of some chickens that make them resistant to Mareks. If you have access to a lab for 'B type' blood testing, 'B factor' birds are desirable for breeding for a 'Mareks-free' flock.

16antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty Re: antibiotics, cure or cause? Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:27 am

HigginsRAT


Golden Member
Golden Member

.



Last edited by HigginsRAT on Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

http://www.wolven.ca/higgins/ratranch/

17antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty Re: antibiotics, cure or cause? Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:00 pm

KathyS

KathyS
Golden Member
Golden Member

Wow, talk about timing! it's interesting that we have just been discussing this very thing on the forum this week, and now there is a CBC online article dealing with it:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

An estimated 80 per cent of all antibiotics sold in the U.S. wind up on animal farms. Neither industry nor the government tracks what percentage of those drugs are used to boost animal weight, but many experts believe the vast majority go toward non-medical uses.

The debate over antibiotics has long pitted the benefits for producing safe, low-cost meat against the risk of contributing to dangerous antibiotic-resistant bacteria that can infect humans.

Anyone interested in learning more about the study done by Marketplace on this subject should watch the episode online. It is a real eye opener!

http://www.hawthornhillpoultry.com

18antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty Re: antibiotics, cure or cause? Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:15 pm

KathyS

KathyS
Golden Member
Golden Member

gubi wrote:I would like to ad that most of the people on this site are guilty of using medicated feed too! Why do we need to feed medicated chick starter? This is no different then the commercial poultry farmer feeding medicated chick starter to his chicks!
There is people on these sites that import and use drugs from the US that aren't even approved in Canada.
If we are going to point fingers at the big bad factory farmers we might have to take a look at what we do ourselves first.
In Ontario on Dairy and Poultry farms every use of medication has to be documented and any medication that is used off label has to have a veterinary prescription.

gubi, I thought I should reply to this, as I have made no secret in the past of my preference for medicated chick starter. I have raised chicks both ways, (medicated and not) and luckily have not yet had a case of Cocci. I do agree that those of us raising small flocks need to make responsible choices, too.

But on this topic I want to be clear that my concern is with antibiotics, not the amprol that helps chicks develop an immunity to coccidiosis. I think of this more like responsible vaccination to help avoid illnesses. The antibiotics I'm concerned about are the same ones doctors prescribe to us and our children for infections...amoxicillin, tetracycline, erythromycin and ceftiofur to name a few. These important drugs are losing their effectiveness as bacteria become increasingly resistant to them.
It is something we all need to be educated about and concerned about.

http://www.hawthornhillpoultry.com

19antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty Re: antibiotics, cure or cause? Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:47 pm

uno

uno
Golden Member
Golden Member

I have a question (related to this topic) about coccidiosis and the use of medicated chick starter.

Exactly how prevalent is cocci and why? I have NEVER lost a chic to this. Almost lost a rabbit once, but never a bird. Are we being told the sky is falling when in fact, it is not?

It has been my experience in the distant past that chicks often drop dead for no known reason. Out of 100 chicks you can expect to lose a few, just cause. Can this all be blamed on coccidiosis? No. And yet, we act as if we are all being stalked by the big, bad wolf, we buy into this coccidiosis scare hook, line and sinker. I do not believe that coccidiisis is that big a threat and if it is, it's time to seriously reveiw and amend the living arrangements of our chicks, since I believe this is an environmental problem (present in the site).

I have not used medicated starter for years and I do not lose chicks. I put my newly hatched chicks on cedar (gasp of horror) with all the bad press that cedar gets, I have NEVER lost a chick (other than to gross birth defects). I no longer order meat birds by mail, I get them a 20 minute ride up the road. These non-stressed birds DO NOT DIE, they just live on! On cedar, without medicated starter. This tells me something. Either we believe too much poultry industry hype, or the chicks we have are very compromised genetically or physically or we need to change our chicken keeping practices. Is using medicated starter really helping healthy chicks, or propping up g weak birds who would not otherwise have survived?

I wish I could suss out the truth. The actual, real incidence of cocci death as opposed to the 'threat and worry' of chick mortality if we don't use medicated starter. I quit using it, braced for losses that simply never happened. We are being sold a bill of goods, in my opinion.

I am not against the use of medicated starter and do not feel it is a big deal. BUt I think the threat of coccidiosis is overblown and if someone has such high cocci deaths, I think the problems need to be fixed at the grass roots level and NOT with a bag of medicated feed.

20antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty Re: antibiotics, cure or cause? Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:20 am

Schipperkesue

Schipperkesue
Golden Member
Golden Member

Hmmm, Uno, perhaps by raising your chicks on cedar you are actually employing a natural antibiotic?

With the exception of chicks (yes, I use medicated starter) for me the quandary of antibiotic use is twofold. Firstly, there is a big difference between using antibiotics as a preventative and using them to actually treat a problem. With the exception of chicks I limit my use to treating problems rather than prevention. With chicks, their body mass is so small that by the time you see a problem it may be too late and a whole brooder may be lost, hence prevention in that case.

Secondly, people don't always follow directions.. I think a lot of antibiotic misuse is through improper adminisration on the drug. Too little, too much, stopping treatment too early all may render the antibiotic less effective.

21antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty Re: antibiotics, cure or cause? Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:51 am

BriarwoodPoultry

BriarwoodPoultry
Addicted Member
Addicted Member

Uno, I have lost chicks to Cocci. Last year I had the genius idea to use nonmedicated starter. I live in an area with higher humidity, and with the warmth of keeping the chicks warm I had a massive outbreak of cocci within a week. I lost 4 or 5 chicks every day for a week. I'm sure it was cocci, there was bloody poop, etc. I'm never again going to try unmedicated feed while I live in this humid area, and I know a friend of mine who raises poultry on the island has had a similar experience. The brooder was kept clean, chicks were all healthy heritage home hatched chicks. So to me the threat of cocci is very real and not worth the risk. Once you start loosing chicks there's nothing you can do to stop it, even using the antibiotics to treat didn't stop the dying of chicks, any that already had symptoms still died.

http://briarwoodpoultry.weebly.com

22antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty Re: antibiotics, cure or cause? Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:24 pm

uno

uno
Golden Member
Golden Member

Sue, interesting thought about the cedar being a natural antibitoic but from what I've experienced, cedar is more of an irritant. A cedar sliver is bad news! Cedar dust can be very irritating if you have a sensitivity to it (not everyone does). Maybe my chicks are so toughened by this they are like little street thugs? I can't say for sure.

Briarwood, I was wondering if coccidiosis is more prevalent in some areas or climates than others and perhaps the answer is yes. But because I rarely take anything at face value and tend to be skeptical, I would be wondering where it was coming from and what I could do to stop it, if there is anything to stop it!

I have posted elsewhere to see if I can get some hard facts on the actual losses due to cocci and what situations those losses occur in? I have not found out anything yet. Will share what I find out.

23antibiotics, cure or cause? Empty Re: antibiotics, cure or cause? Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:18 pm

BriarwoodPoultry

BriarwoodPoultry
Addicted Member
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It seems to be especially bad on the coast here, especially in late summer/early fall chicks the dampness in the brooder is disgusting despite open windows, heat and regular bedding changes. Don't know what else to do while I'm in this humid climate, have used bleach and virkon to clean and disinfect brooder and so far so good for this year, with the use of medicated starter!

http://briarwoodpoultry.weebly.com

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