Members please read.

There have been some good comments put on here and I agree with what KathyS has said about posting pictures of the parents and now I need to take the time to put pictures on with the adds for chicks or eggs that I post. Not every one is concerned about how close to the standard that a bird is but if they can see what the parents look like then they will have an idea of what the chicks may become and what to expect. I also think that on the most part people are honest and don't intend to decieve but there are always some that are not honest and will intentionally mislead or decieve. There are people on this site who have boughten very dark non purebred hatcheing eggs for a reduced price because they were not pure and then as I was watching all spring, summer and fall, the buyer of those eggs never did advertize any cross chicks for sale at all although they often advertized Black Copper Marans chicks for sale. Pure Black Copper Marans hens were the mothers of those crossed eggs. Maybe the buyer sold all those cross bred chicks to someone locally and that is why they never advertized them on these forums and maybe they were totally honest in their dispersing of those crossed chicks but there are people who we need to be aware of. I am neither the buyer or the seller of those eggs but I am just wondering what happened to those crossed chicks. I really dislike dishonesty in any way and I hope that we all try very hard to be totally up front when selling anything.

Or maybe after the buyer found out the truth after buying the eggs they were never hatched and they were destroyed

I have so much I want to say on this and am struggling with being concise and not wanting to be misunderstood, as can happen via this form of communication.

First of all, for those members that have issues with one another I challenge you to take the higher road and not only leave your issues in private but don't even step into the ring in the first place by commenting on the person's post that you have ongoing issues with, no matter how neutral or benign your comment, for your relationship with one another is now at a point where everything said by the other is received in a negative light, well intentioned or not. You have both created a dynamic that is difficult to let go of long term. ANd I am referring to any members that feel they have a constant bone to pick with another member. It lowers the bar on the quality of this forum and its members.

Secondly and getting back on topic, being new to poultry keeping, I fully appreciate the idea of having some kind of policy on WCPS for those that wish to advertise their birds for sale on this forum. I am not suggesting the policy be that one's birds have to be even close to the standard of perfection but if sellers are going to advertise their birds as being one thing and expect those that know differently to sit back and not say anything when they know they're NOT what the seller is advertising them to be, then they need to reconsider advertising on WCPS. Perhaps the policy can be including photos of parent stock when requested and understanding that if the bird is obviously not what the seller is saying it is, those that know better should have the right to point that out......respectfully and kindly and not by people who have issues with the seller. If I was selling a breed on here and it was pointed out to me that it was not what I believed it was, I would definitely be embarrassed but also humbled by my enthusiastic naivety and would correct the situation......not be defensive. I don't want to sell birds giving the impression they are something they're not and if I did, it would be an error based on lack of knowledge only, along with an opportunity to learn and do it differently.

Also, I don't think buyers who are new to poultry keeping know what questions to ask. In my case I just thought I had to buy from what I thought were reputable breeders and pay a price that reflected that. Last year I bought, what I was told, to be a dozen pure Blue Wheaten Ameraucana chicks for $15 each from a what I thought was a reputable breeder's daughter (I went through the breeder to get them) and once they grew out and I was encouraged by a member on this forum to post some pics so I could learn the difference between a Blue Wheaten, Wheaten and Splash I also learned that 7 out of 12 of them were a mixed breed. Now I didn't expect them to be up to Standard but I did expect all 12 to be a pure variety, not crossed variety and especially not mixed with a totally separate breed involved. So I say, if you want to advertise on the forum, please do, as there are awesome breeders here, along with new breeders who can learn so much. And know that photos may be requested and if so, a respectful space needs to be given to call a spade a spade.......not something different than what is obvious in the photo. And ultimately, it just comes down to humility (being humbled).....if it turns out you don't have what you think you have to offer, humble yourself, apologize and correct it and move on........and learn from it. Really I feel like we're just asking everyone to be honest and if we make a mistake, just correct it. Don't be defensive.

So much for being concise.

My take on this is that there are different reasons for selling and buying eggs. If eggs are advertized as pure bred, they should look like the breed in question, but unless the photo of the parents is enclosed, they might not be true to type. Even two true to type birds will not produce all the chicks to grow up and also be true to type, so the buyers have to recognize that too. If the buyer is looking for a start in that breed, and has no other stock, the seller should enclose some eggs from unrelated birds, even if they are not as typy. A strain that is just about run out due to inbreeding is not as much of a start for a new person, even if the percent of typy birds is high. A little back and forth before the deal is finalized goes a long way. You want araucanas(I have araucanas), OK, which is more important, egg colour or type? Do you have any other araucanas? Need a second line, so you can cross lines? Do you know about the lethal properties of the tufted gene? Two tufted birds mated together will produce about a quarter of the eggs that don't hatch...aware of that? Would you be happier with a tufted to clean headed mating, so as to get some with tufts, but enough chicks overall to make the postage worth it? Those questions before eggs are sold go such a long way. I'm sure the marans folks could go on about egg colour too, and any breeds with hard to perfect markings could be included in the discussion. If we really don't know what we have, bought some eggs last year and just love our new breed to bits...can't wait to get some in everybody's hands.........then the rest of us have to be tactfull if the much loved birds are seen through rosey glasses.

Nice way of putting it Jocelyn.

I totally agree with what else has been said it was mostly the comments that were very jaded and uncalled for that really bugged me.

The personal beefs need to be left behind. Some of the comments on some of the threads just left me feeling awful and wondering how I would feel if that had been me on the recieving end. And has heather said the chest thumping was very uncalled for and that was not the 1st time that has happened on here.
\It was really just sad to read on a normally very friendly site.

Jocelyn what goes on between a buyer and seller is not my business and if one choses to purchase eggs that's also not my business. But I think as a APA/ABA licensed judge who is somewhat active on this forum as are other knowledgeable breeders and judges if someone advertises purebred whatever for sale and then posts a picture of the parent stock that is not even close to decent breed type (and believe me I give alot of leaway as I have seen some birds that make me shutter with very obvious DQ's and way questionable breed type)and said parent stock is showing some trait that is almost surely indicative of other blood then I think it is someone's place not to see everything though those rose colored glasses and to ask a question, respectfully.

By doing this we not only educate the sellers but the potential purchasers, it's a win win for everyone as long as it is done in a respectful manner. This site should not just be about everyone flogging eggs and chicks every spring but hopefully a site where people can learn and improve their stock because having hertiage breeds that don't even resemble what they should look like does no breed any good. Just my take on things. Have a good day and thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts.

Heather

Lots of good points here.

Kudos to you, Hidden, for your stance.

As a not very active member from the east, I wanted to add my comments as i think the topic is important.

One of the primary reasons that I read this site daily( even if I don't post ) is the quality of the posts and the knowledge on the site. I love it when Heather gives pointers on a breed or when HigginsRat talks genetics ( even when it requires reading and rereading to understand it). I love the fact that the people on the site are SERIOUS about their birds. Most people seem to take a discussion of their bird's attributes or lack thereof really well. The great thing is that I am learning along with them.

I love it that people are unafraid to start a contraversial thread.

I am so glad that Hidden has taken the stance that she has. Most of us can respect the boundaries and continue to learn from all the members.

Wow I was busy for a couple days and looks like I'm a little out of the loop so I can only speak for what I've read on this post.

As a newbie I would appreciate finding out if things aren't quite as advertised. Yes it is buyer beware and we should be careful and do our research but when you are new there is a lot to learn and it all is impossible. This is a friendly site where we look for information and should act like friendly neighbours asking questions in a friendly manner and in turn answering questions in a humble and honest way. I personally don't see a problem with mutts and a couple of our best hens are mutts.
Everyone should post pics of the actual parent birds and if they are being sold as breeder birds then they should be open to discussion on their good and bad points (in a respectful manner).
Personally we're not interested in breeding chickens and so some pretty birds that aren't up to breed standards would be fine in our coop as we practice chicken birth control by enjoying all the yummy eggs However, If I happened to really want a specific breed in future when my son decides to pick his 4-H project then I'd be looking for breeder/show birds and in that case I'd appreciate having someone let me know whether the parent birds are the proper colours, shapes etc for the breed. I think people should very clear in their ad about the type of bird they have for sale so buyers can make an informed decision when buying.
I think Hidden has made the right decision