423 square cm - that's 67 square inches, or 9" x 7.5"

The following copied from [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

423 sq cm, or 67 sq inches, is the area that most hens spend their lives in. The EU has introduced legislation to change this; now the US. What about Canada? What can we do?

Cage ban bill introduced to US House of Representatives
//26 Jan 2012
Three members of the US House of Representatives have introduced a bill that, if made law, would improve the welfare of the 280 or million egg-laying hens by 2030.


The bill follows through on an agreement reached by the Humane Society of the United States and the United Egg Producers last year, a policy to establish, amongst other things, a national standard for cage sizes.

The two organizations, previously at odds, have set aside their differences in their aim to help establish a national standard, which would significantly reduce the costs for individual farmers of maintaining compliance with individual state laws, as well as improving the general welfare of the layers.

The bill, H.R. 3798, the Egg Products Inspection Act Amendments of 2012, if made into legislation, would
•require conventional cages to be replaced during an ample phase-in period with new, enriched colony housing systems that provide all egg-laying hens nearly double the amount of current space;
•require that, after a phase-in period, all egg-laying hens be provided with environmental enrichments, such as perches, nesting boxes and scratching areas, that will allow hens to express natural behaviors;
•require labeling on all egg cartons nationwide to inform consumers of the method used to produce the eggs—“eggs from caged hens,” “eggs from hens in enriched cages,” “eggs from cage-free hens” and “eggs from free-range hens”;
•prohibit feed- or water-withdrawal molting to extend the laying cycle, a practice already prohibited by the United Egg Producers Certified program;
•require standards approved by the American Veterinary Medical Association for euthanasia of egg-laying hens;
•prohibit excessive ammonia levels in henhouses; and
•prohibit the transport and sale of eggs and egg products nationwide that don’t meet these requirements.

Individual states have often-conflicting standards for egg production, which some have addressed through standardization.

If passed, the amendment bill would supersede those state laws and create a federal standard - something UEP says is the only solution in enhancing hen welfare and ensuring a sustainable future for America's family-owned egg farms.

"Eggs are a national commodity and egg producers should have a level playing field - not have different, costly rules in all 50 states," said Gene Gregory, president and chief executive of the UEP, which represents 88% of the nation's egg producers.

If enacted, the proposal would require egg producers to increase space per hen in a tiered phase-in, with the amount of space hens are given increasing, in intervals, over the next 15 to 18 years. Currently, the majority of hens are each provided 432 square centimetres of space, with up to 50 million receiving just 309 square centimetres. The proposed phase-in would culminate with a minimum of 800 square centimetres of space for white hens and 929 for brown hens nationwide.

This actually brought tears to my eyes, geez.

Very interesting. This sort of legislation must be difficult to draft and takes some careful reading.

Why for example will white hens get less space than brown hens?

The tension is always going to be between animal welfare and cheap food and I think every country and every age has a different tolerance for that. I hope we have gone to the extreme of cheap food and are moving back from it a bit.

I had no idea the poor beasts where squashed up so bad. Sigh. It seems it has been a steady race for the bottom, husbandry wise. We all want cheap food, stores squeeze suppliers who squeeze producers....who squeeze hens into a tiny space to get enough income to make it all worthwhile.

67! Wow!

For a 200 lb man that's only about 4.5 feet square.

THis brings to mind an ad currently on our television station about MacDonalds ( I THINK) and all the goodness in an egg that they put into their breakfast sandwhich. It'a a very pretty ad with picutres of people cooking eggs, boiling eggs, forgetting eggs at the grocery store. What is UTTERLY ABSENT is the film footage of thousands of hens jammed in agony in row upon row of dark, stinking battery cages. An egg that comes from the grocery store is one of the most ethically corrupt foods you can put in your face. The omission of truth in that ad is equal to an enormous and monsterous LIE! It was the MacDonalds and Wendy's of the world that started a move to improve slaughter house conduct in the U.S. when they came under enough public pressure. I wish that our cheapo cheapo food buying public would grow a set of ethics...but I don't hold out much hope. Being dumb as dirt and ignorant about the state of your food allows you the blissful freedom to not care, demand cheap food and spend the excess on...gel nails.

Good post, ipf.

uno wrote:THis brings to mind an ad currently on our television station about MacDonalds ( I THINK) and all the goodness in an egg that they put into their breakfast sandwhich. It'a a very pretty ad with picutres of people cooking eggs, boiling eggs, forgetting eggs at the grocery store. What is UTTERLY ABSENT is the film footage of thousands of hens jammed in agony in row upon row of dark, stinking battery cages. An egg that comes from the grocery store is one of the most ethically corrupt foods you can put in your face. The omission of truth in that ad is equal to an enormous and monsterous LIE! It was the MacDonalds and Wendy's of the world that started a move to improve slaughter house conduct in the U.S. when they came under enough public pressure. I wish that our cheapo cheapo food buying public would grow a set of ethics...but I don't hold out much hope. Being dumb as dirt and ignorant about the state of your food allows you the blissful freedom to not care, demand cheap food and spend the excess on...gel nails.

Good post, ipf.

Well said. I saw that same commercial and thought the same thing. It was disgusting really. I'm glad the US is doing something, though 15 to 18 years is still a lot of suffering for those poor birds. Even then, I can't imagine they will be living the good life..... Sigh

Susan wrote:

uno wrote:THis brings to mind an ad currently on our television station about MacDonalds ( I THINK) and all the goodness in an egg that they put into their breakfast sandwhich. It'a a very pretty ad with picutres of people cooking eggs, boiling eggs, forgetting eggs at the grocery store. What is UTTERLY ABSENT is the film footage of thousands of hens jammed in agony in row upon row of dark, stinking battery cages. An egg that comes from the grocery store is one of the most ethically corrupt foods you can put in your face. The omission of truth in that ad is equal to an enormous and monsterous LIE! It was the MacDonalds and Wendy's of the world that started a move to improve slaughter house conduct in the U.S. when they came under enough public pressure. I wish that our cheapo cheapo food buying public would grow a set of ethics...but I don't hold out much hope. Being dumb as dirt and ignorant about the state of your food allows you the blissful freedom to not care, demand cheap food and spend the excess on...gel nails.

Good post, ipf.

Well said. I saw that same commercial and thought the same thing. It was disgusting really. I'm glad the US is doing something, though 15 to 18 years is still a lot of suffering for those poor birds. Even then, I can't imagine they will be living the good life..... Sigh

I too agree,... buuuuut, Do those penned up laying machines know any better?! The same could be said for people who live in very small apartments in large cities.
I know it is a bit different but the birds don't know any better!
As a chick, they start their life in a "small" egg, then once hatched, they are brooded in a highly populated brooding facility without much room to move, then they go into a "small" cage again.
I agree more room is better. But if that is all they know to begin with, why is it such a bad thing?
It's not like putting a free run chicken from someones back yard into a small cage after it is used to having freedom!

Using Fowler's example, a 200 lb man would be affected by living in a 4.5 foot space regardless whether he grew up in it or not. He could not lie down, stretch, stand upright. The same goes for these birds. Regardless if you are accustomed to a certain environment or not, when basic needs are not met, there will be detrimental effects. And I think using your analogy DWD, the cramped, apartment style city living is what they are talking about as the improvements for the birds with this new bill

Like I already stated, I agree more room is better! However, these birds that are production cage birds were developed for that exact style of life! If it was such a "bad" thing, these birds wouldn't be very productive, would they?!?!
Most of us see how the effects of stress can result in low egg production in our back yard flocks! Now if it is true that the birds are so unhappy, then tell me why they lay so well?!?!
All I'm saying is, to us, the birds would seem much healthier and happier if they weren't penned up, but does it really matter to them? Commercial operations wouldn't be getting such high production of eggs if wasn't a good way to house the birds!
Just something to think about.

Before we starting the custom hatching and were forbidden from buying them, we used to buy some of those spent layers. They were a buck each and I thought even if they couldn't lay again, they would make good meals. As it turns out, they can lay again, and may live another 5 or 6 years in good health. However, when you get them, the feathers are all frayed and they don't know how to preen. They don't know how to stand with their heads up, or go to roost, and are unable to walk more than a short distance. Running is impossible. They are afraid of being touched, probably because they have so little room that one has to peck another to get her to do the shimmy to back up so the first one can drink. They don't flap their wings, or stretch, or spread out in a sunny spot. Their claws are very long and gnarled, and their foot pads are rough and sore looking....well, I could go on, but you get the idea. it hasn't been a good life to that point for them. What a difference a week makes! Two weeks on, and some can run a little bit, 4 weeks and some can get airborn a little...............

DWD, I think it's not an issue of what those birds know or don't know. It's what WE know that binds us to ethical standards. Just because an animal has a brain the size of a pea does not mean that it's pain or misery receptors aren't working just fine.

Those birds were developed to lay well, but not to live in misery. Their instincts, which are present in all birds, are still there. OTherwise they would not be birds but just big butts that have no legs or beaks and pop out eggs. BUt they are chickens and have all the same roost, scratch, dust bath, lay eggs in quiet privacy urges that their country brethern have.

About the city dweller stuck in one of those shoebox apartments, let us keep in mind that his misery is self inflicted. He can open the door and go to the park, the bar, the gym or a drive in the country anytime he wants. This is NOT the case for caged hens. If you want to lock yourself in a box, more power to you, but to inflict this suffering on something that has no power to fight for itself is oppression. While I may feel sorry for the type A city dweller in a suit, he is certainly no one's victim. He can leave the city anytime he changes his ethics and goals, morals and philosophy. That is not the case for a battery chicken.

It should also be pointed out that people who own thousands of birds also own quota. Around here it's like having gold in the bank. Guaranteed income. Quota holders around here also become land barrens since that guaranteed income allows them to purchase large pieces of land. It is sickening to me that those with the most and best land will deny the use of it to the very creatures who are their bread and butter! Locally a MASSIVE dairy was built, by out-of-towners on a HUGE and lovely piece of land and do those cows EVER set foot outside a barn? NEVER! They live and die under that big, ugly roof and the land is set aside for spreading manure. Vast quantities of manure, to the horror and misery of everyone around. This isn't the usual seasonal spraying, this is a grotesque abuse of both cows and land but boy oh boy, someone with quota is afforded the luxury of having no ethics. I stand by my view that animals should be allowed OUT OF DOORS and to do otherwise is ABUSE. (obviously within reason, room to debate the hows and ways)

The SPCA seizes dogs and cats locked in rooms where they are knee deep in cages and thier own waste. Why is it that chickens are exempt from the humane standards legally given to companion animals? It's because at our core we are all happy to enslave anyone or anything that profits us. If a hen's suffering means I get cheap eggs, then hey, I'm cool with that. And that is how most people roll.

Dark Wing Duck wrote:Like I already stated, I agree more room is better! However, these birds that are production cage birds were developed for that exact style of life! If it was such a "bad" thing, these birds wouldn't be very productive, would they?!?!
Most of us see how the effects of stress can result in low egg production in our back yard flocks! Now if it is true that the birds are so unhappy, then tell me why they lay so well?!?!
All I'm saying is, to us, the birds would seem much healthier and happier if they weren't penned up, but does it really matter to them? Commercial operations wouldn't be getting such high production of eggs if wasn't a good way to house the birds!
Just something to think about.

I paid my way through University working in pig barns. Same type of situation. Sows essentially spend their entire miserable existence unable to turn around. They still come into heat, breed and have large litters of healthy piglets. Does it mean that this is ethical? It certainly works. I worked on a couple of projects when I was in University on group housing sows and another on group housing laying hens. The problem in both situations is that giving the animals a little room made them fight. I don't know what the answer is, but I do agree that it will take a very docile kind of hen to live in a larger cage. Some thing to think about. Is fighting to death better than not being able to perch or scratch?

Oh~! One more quickie thought...

Recently there was a thread on the ALR and keeping or not keeping agricultural land for agricultural uses. I claim that many lands that are deemed ALR are in fact, crap land that would never support a cow unless it carried lunch with it everywhere it went. HOWEVER...chickens are quite happy to scratch and peck and dig on very marginal land. What would not support any grazing animal or grow any kind of crop still makes an adventurous chicken quite content.

There is no excuse in the world for condemning chickens to the life sentence of chicken misery when access to the very nastiest land would make them happy. There is no excusing what boils down to plain, pure, unadulterated greed. By the grower AND by the egg consuming public.

Bowker acres...animals in unnatural conditions act in unnatural ways. If pigs fight in a little room, then it is too litte. The roots of that problem are more complex and deserve more understanding, but the farmer takes the easy way out and goes back to the old way of doing things; lock them in little cells. Any farmer who does not understand the needs and nature of the animals he is raising and is not willing to work within those bounds should go live in a shoebox in Vancouver and be a stock broker.

Dark Wing Duck wrote:All I'm saying is, to us, the birds would seem much healthier and happier if they weren't penned up, but does it really matter to them?

I don't want to seem to attack you in particular, but since you asked this question, my answer to anyone is, "Obviously you have never seen a former battery hen get her beak on a mouse in the chicken yard and RUN LIKE HELL with it!!" Or enjoying a dust bath on a sunny afternoon, or scratching grain out of the sandy soil after I've thrown it.

I wonder if chickens dream?
Sorry. Off topic.

This becomes a topic of ones own beliefs and personal morals! Nothing else!
As I already stated, I agree more room is better!!!! However, this has nothing to do with what "I think" now does it?
"I think" it is not right for people with large dogs to be allowed to own them in the city. "I think" it is not right for people to have cats in the city unless they are kept inside (because they crap in everyone else's flower beds but their own)! However, "some people think" it's not right to keep cats locked up in a house so they let them roam! "I also think" its not right to allow your chickens to be kept in an unheated coop where their combs are allowed to get frost bite but we hear about it almost daily!!! "I also think" its unfair to raise fish in crowed pools / tanks like they do at fish farms! "Some people think it is unfair to keep Lucy the elephant in the Edmonton Zoo even though many, many specialists have said that moving her elsewhere isn't healthy! The list goes on and on...!!!
This is no more worthy of what "I think" is moral any more (or less) than what "you" or "anyone else thinks" is. As long as people are keeping (raising) the birds in accordance to the laws that are in place, who are we to judge? We can have our own opinions of the matter, but that is all they are!
All I was trying to say is that if the birds are healthy than that is why they are allowed to be kept in the size of cages that they are! I doubt they are miserable at all, because as already mentioned, they wouldn't lay eggs very well if they were! Infact, right now I happen to have a few commercial layers that are not laying too well because they are stressed out about being one roosters particular favourites! What do "you think" about that?

Dark Wing Duck wrote:Infact, right now I happen to have a few commercial layers that are not laying too well because they are stressed out about being one roosters particular favourites! What do "you think" about that?

Your point is well taken DWD. As for these hens, I think they're just "makin' hay while the shines"! Maybe they're not sure if the good times'll last and figure at least something's getting laid.

We had sows, first it was a sow & weaner operation, then a farrow to finish operation. With enough room, some hay to eat to keep them busy and penning with animals they already know, there is no fighting. We marketed 22 pigs per sow per year and had a very good feed conversion and days to market. Our rolling herd average was 130 days, birth to market. Some of this was attributed, by the provincial Vets, to having a low stress barn. The fact that we were SPF helped too, less germs for the pigs to deal with. Sane pigs do not cost more....at least not at 30 sows level.

I would 'quote' DWD, but once again, can't figure out how to do it, even though it's been explained to me.

DWD, you are very right that this comes down to an I think, you think debate. You state that if the birds are being kept in accordance to the laws...then so be it and we have no say.

Ah, but who do you think influences law? WE DO! We, the people. Our laws have changed over time because we the people have changed. Men are no longer allowed to abuse wife and children because the law allowed them to be beaten with a rod no larger around than your thumb (rule of thumb). Those laws were NOT good, and they are not laws any longer. Just because something is legal does not make it right. Is it legal to move a company off shore, pay chldren a few sheckles a day and sell your product here for a massive profit while perpetuating abuse of third world ignorance? Why yes it is legal! It is still sickening and legal or not I have the choice to boycott your product and tell others what a scumbag operation you run. (not meaning YOU personally, I mean you as in the collective sense) Ain't it great to be free? You can employ children in desperate countries because it is legal there..you can do other things to chldren in other countries because the law does not protect them. DOES THAT MAKE IT OKAY?Never.

No, chickens should not be allowed to run free like cats or none of us would be safe in our beds at night! And more room will defintely be better. BUt at this point in our humanity, doing a crap job of keeping animals because the law allows us to is a non-starter, in my opinion.

It would seem, according to ipf's post, that a movement is afoot and what was once law is going to not be law much longer. We might not be there yet, but I think change is acomin!

uno wrote:I would 'quote' DWD, but once again, can't figure out how to do it, even though it's been explained to me.

DWD, you are very right that this comes down to an I think, you think debate. You state that if the birds are being kept in accordance to the laws...then so be it and we have no say.

Ah, but who do you think influences law? WE DO! We, the people. Our laws have changed over time because we the people have changed. Men are no longer allowed to abuse wife and children because the law allowed them to be beaten with a rod no larger around than your thumb (rule of thumb). Those laws were NOT good, and they are not laws any longer. Just because something is legal does not make it right. Is it legal to move a company off shore, pay chldren a few sheckles a day and sell your product here for a massive profit while perpetuating abuse of third world ignorance? Why yes it is legal! It is still sickening and legal or not I have the choice to boycott your product and tell others what a scumbag operation you run. (not meaning YOU personally, I mean you as in the collective sense) Ain't it great to be free? You can employ children in desperate countries because it is legal there..you can do other things to chldren in other countries because the law does not protect them. DOES THAT MAKE IT OKAY?Never.

No, chickens should not be allowed to run free like cats or none of us would be safe in our beds at night! And more room will defintely be better. BUt at this point in our humanity, doing a crap job of keeping animals because the law allows us to is a non-starter, in my opinion.

It would seem, according to ipf's post, that a movement is afoot and what was once law is going to not be law much longer. We might not be there yet, but I think change is acomin!

You are correct Uno about the squeaky wheel getting the grease!

And just so I get it straight. We all agree more room in the cage is "nicer"! Right? How much more room do the birds require to be "happy", or at least not "miserable", as you previously stated? At what point does their cage space suffice all the critics who will still think their cages are "too small"? Should we ban all battery rearing for layers? Maybe!? I'm sure there are a few people that "think" it should not be allowed! Just like I'm sure there are a few people that think cattle feed lots should be done away with as well!

We have to fully understand why the commercial farms keep the birds the way they do. It is all about the logistics. Cage reared farms are way more efficient and cost effective over free run operations! That is why they have developed the hybrid, commercial layers they have in these facilities! These birds are designed to be cage reared. As much as we "think" it's unfair or inhumane, there has actually been some science considered in this form of farming!

As far as the child labour and domestic abuse comparisons go! This has absolutely nothing to do with how laying chickens are farmed! However, from what we see in the news everyday, some people perhaps, should be beaten and sentenced to hard labour!!!!!

With that said, this reminds me, it's my boys turn to help with the cleaning out of the coops this weekend if he expects to get his $5.00 allowance this week!

Come on!

Studys are all ready done here in canada! Acutally here in NS. they have studyed a lot of diffrent cage systems! They went across Canada doing presentions. I was invited to one. Very intersting.


Some places sell there eggs by the 7's

call ducks wrote:Come on!

Studys are all ready done here in canada! Acutally here in NS. they have studyed a lot of diffrent cage systems! They went across Canada doing presentions. I was invited to one. Very intersting.


Some places sell there eggs by the 7's

So... What are you saying? Sorry, but I don't understand. What does selling eggs in packages of 7 have to do with it? And what did the studies find?

Dark Wing Duck wrote:

call ducks wrote:Come on!

Studys are all ready done here in canada! Acutally here in NS. they have studyed a lot of diffrent cage systems! They went across Canada doing presentions. I was invited to one. Very intersting.


Some places sell there eggs by the 7's

So... What are you saying? Sorry, but I don't understand. What does selling eggs in packages of 7 have to do with it? And what did the studies find?

Ohh well i had posted from the conference in a few places, back then, not sure if i did.

The studys never "found" anything they were testing multiple cage systems to see what would fit best.

The eggs kind of go with it because in eurpope there is a coop type shapped like an octegon (oh heptagon not sure), and they sell them for one/day ie 7 days, because they go shopping and spend more of there income in europe on food (that part is more cultral)

Call Ducks...I am also confused about what your post is saying? Caged birds are good? Caged birds are bad?

DWD, I am going to have to disagree with you on this. No, laying birds were not 'designed' to live 4 or 5 or 6 to a cage. Never. Not even close. They were designed to lay a huge amount of eggs. Being designed to lay vast amounts of eggs DOES NOT AND HAS NOT removed the basic instincts of a chicken. Whether it lays 300 eggs a year or 12, a chicken is a chicken is a chicken. Not one single natural genetic instinct has been designed out! Selective breeding to discourage broodiness is NOT a bird that has no natural instincts. No chicken has ever been deisgned to live in a box with 4 other chickens. Not one. Unless you get it hot from the counter girl at KFC.

Just because some farmer, in the name of 'efficiency', has developed a system where one person manages 10,000 birds instead of hiring 20 people to manage 10,000 birds does not mean the birds were designed for that! What you call efficiency, some of us call exploitation! ALl sorts of things done in the name of efficiency turn out to be bad, bad, bad and are usually morally bankrupt. The easy way is often the wrong way.

Now if by efficiency you mean cheaply...then I agree with you. IT is cheaper to jam birds in cages and NOT hire 20 people but run the place yourself and so what if birds suffer? It's more money in your pocket. I realize that farmers need to make a living. BUt at some point (to me anyway) the ehtics of an animal's life and death DO matter!

I don't think this is about making chickens 'happy'. HOw can you tell if a chicken is happy, it's not like they smile or give each other high fives. BUt it is obvious to anyone when the innate urges of a chicken have been thwarted and denied in the name of efficiency. When a bird cannot roost because it is in a cage. WHen it cannot find a private spot to lay eggs because it is in a cage. When it cannot roll in the dirt because it is in a cage. A chicken cannot do in a cage all the things chickens naturally do. The provision of more room and CAGE FREE can provide these things. But eggs might be more expensive and the farmer might see a lower income. But it's time for a change. In my opinion anyway.