Chantecler breeders and the cushion comb

An interesting read. Some of you may have already seen this, but I came across it again and found it useful to reread.

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Thanks for posting this coopslave. I read it in the Chantecler Fancier and it was good to read it again. Plenty of incorrect combs showing up in my flock and most of them seem to be on the best birds, but I guess they'll stay until I get the type where I want it or I get some better birds to work with.

Reneggaide I notice you say your 'boys' show incorrect combs. Interesting, its mostly my males too. I wonder why that would be?

I read that too in the feather fancier when it came out. Mine have the little spiky needle-like feathers at the top, and the odd one has the indented 1/3s, mostly females. Reneggaide, you are right, it``s not like we eat the comb...eeew We had got the female odd comb with a leader like a wyandotte but the rest not as fat or bumpy with the Robyln Eyrie line.

My 14 partridge Chantceler chicks that the chanty brooded and hatched are fledged, yesterday morning she announced she wanted nothing more to do with them. They are about 6 weeks and feathered out, gregarious and free ranging. And looks like I am going to get a nice dark rooster from one of them (nice barring as well). They really vary in colour, they are Blehms moms (both v friendly) and Chickees Moms smaller crisply marked roo is the dad. Looks like I have some lighter bleached out females (probably had the beige speckled faces), a couple of nice tall mahogany closely barred females and a few chestnut feathered males. They all looked different from day one.

I have to respond to this only by saying "no you do not eat the comb" but the comb is part of what defines the breed. Start accepting and being comfortable with letting this and that go because I don't eat it has become the demise of many breeds, as from there it goes to well it's 1 lb underweight and so on and so forth. This thinking which is why so many of our Large Fowl breeds will never be what they were, small and not even resembling what they should look like. I have large fowl that are eaten and they actually have all the attributes of what there breed should look like including the comb. So if you think you are saving the chantecler by not worrying about the things that make it what it is because it is easier not to worry about it and put the work in, I would respectfully have to disagree.

Heather

I would have to agree with Heather on this subject. Although we don't eat the comb on any of out chickens what is a Chantecler if it has a single comb and large wattles? Or what about a Dominique with a single comb... is it a Barred Rock then? These trait have taken many years to select and maintain and if they are not properly managed you will no longer have the breed that it once was.

I believe that is why so many heritage poultry breeds are struggling as the latest years of breeding we as breeders have been letting the traits of our birds slid and it is a slippery slow...

Another reason some breeds are in decline is insufficient genetic diversity. If you select too intensively in a breed with very limited numbers, you'll reduce that diversity further.

I am glad this has turned into a discussion.
What brought this back up for me is that I have a young cockerel that is showing everything that I want (so far) except the comb I want. I have to admit the other young guys are just not as nice in colour or type. This has me in a dilema as I feel pretty strongly about the proper comb as well.
I think Heather makes a great point about becoming to accepting of faults in breeding and just starting to accept little things that will come back and bite you later. That is something I hate to do and irritates me, but in the case I am looking at, I may use this cockerel with a couple of my nicer combed hens next year and see what I get. I will know that they will genetically not be what I am striving for, but I think I can manage them if I am careful.
I think that is what we have to do. Make the tough choices and then step in with eyes wide open. If I had more cockerels that were better to chose from, I don`t think I would be looking (staring everyday actually! ) at this fellow at all.
I think it is tough to make these decisions sometimes and then do clean up for years after. I have to admit that they are not really Chanteclers to me without the cushion comb, but I have a fellow now that I have to view as a breeding tool and live with my choices later. I think this is what is so tough about a breed that we still get such variation on.
I feel this is why the pencilling in the partridge is bad as well. People have just decided that it kinda has the right shape and kinda has the right comb and kinda has some pencilling, lets just say it is a Partridge Chantecler. They are a tough breed to get right, but when you do they are a beautiful bird! Remember they are not going to all be perfect show birds, but can be amazing for the breeding pen.
SLF these are your boys. They are growing really well, but all are chesnut but this one fellow and one other that is undecided about himself! Really intersting when the pullets are so nice!

A really interesting read I hadn't seen before and I appreciate all your comments. If only one bird had all the right points and the wrong birds none of them!

Ah the comb 'thing'! I just went through this with my beautiful BLRW who was indeed an awesome roo in many ways but that inverted comb. It was a very difficult decision but given that I can not have the diversity of many roos on my property he had to be replaced with a better roo. Also I felt I didn't want to be responsible for any BLRWs carrying that genetic fault due to my roo. Why keep introducing a known fault when I can nip it in the butt now. Just my 2 cents worth!

XOX Monika

We eat all our wrong combed boys and certainly don't breed or sell them. I sell females that either do or don't (and are not ideally coloured) have the wrong combs as layers. I was referring to what was thrown from normally combed parents with the Roblyn Birds and they were very wyandotty and what we started with, all we could get 4 years ago.

For now we eat the smaller lighter coloured roos and keep the larger darker ones. That;s the great thing about chanteclers, the tasty birds. I meant when you are eating them, the comb doesn't matter on that bird. If you want to propagate more and share them, the responsibility is on you to do it as well as you can, IMO, reading and learning as much as you can.

It seems the Blehms roos are very light males and the hens lovely and dark, we saw that last year too with the bought chicks. I'll take some more pics of the chicks as I think they are beautiful, but have a tons of feathers to go through and growing to do before I can be sure who I am keeping. I\ll start a new thread Coopslave.

It is frustrating not having perfect birds, of course we would all love them to look like the books, but it is a process. Having nice heavy APA breed standard birds is not an overnight achievement unless you buy them like that. It is an amazing achievement Heather, as 99% of us aren't close, but 4 years for us isn't long when you have to try a few out to see what you like and then start to get serious, all the time learning about genetics and raising lots of birds.

krl, we found the Dominique way more laid back and timid than the Barred rocks but I understand your point By definition the breed is only the breed if x, y, and z are met. And I totally agree.

Ipf I agree, especially when number are limited of some of the rare breeds, how do you know what you had hidden in the mix when it's gone. Great thread Coopslave.

Sorry if I sounded grumpy the AM, I agree that you need diverisity within a breed, and I agree there are no perfect birds espically not in my flocks, but what I am trying to get across is that if you start dimissing the small things, they just go on to be major problems within a breed and while you are dismissing these little things like combs, because you don't eat that part of the bird, most people don't have any problem selling or giving these birds on to others to base there breeding programs on.

Have, I ever used a bird that had a breed problem, yes, but not without giving it a lot of thought and getting a plan, so but you must do it, do it responsibly like Coopslave is going to do with her cockerel. It's about accountability to your breed to maintain all the things that make it the breed it is and accountabilty to the people who get birds from you.

And if you don't care about the things that make a breed a breed and just want birds to eat perhaps you should just have "meaties" as you are doing a disservice to breeds that are struggling to survive in their true form. Diversity dons't just come from throwing whatever together with no regard as to what makes it a breed, and I don't get why there seems to be this thinking that people who show don't have good genetic diversity. Look around folks the people that show are the ones holding these breeds to some sort of standard and keeping them going as best we can.

Heather

It's not that I am permissive with comb type, I also think it is a very important part of the breed's character. But in most of my cockerels the choice is between good size and pea comb or acceptable comb with a light build. So I plan to do as coopslave is and use them as a breeding tool to achieve size first, then work on the combs. I believe this is the best I can do with the birds and knowledge I have. I have no experience as yet. Any tips are appreciated.

Samwise, that is how you go about it learning as you go and remembering to always be thinking ahead and approaching each and every breeding season with thought. Everyone is about saving and having heritage breeds these days but no point if they don't look like what they were meant to be. I learned as I went along and am still learning today. I like to get breeds that I havn't had just to try and improve them and excersise my brain and when I think I have improved them I like to pass them on to someone else who has a real interest in that particular breed.

Heather

I want to say here, for the record, that I have every intention of not letting anything slip. It is the work that I enjoy. This has been one of the most interesting endeavors I've ever taken on. I want it all, perfection, long way off though.
The question, what is a chantecler with strait comb is a good question. It would be too easy for me to say it's a chicken, so I have to ask what is the most important thing which defines the breed? I'm thinking it's the ability to thrive in the Canadian environment, providing quality eggs/meat through the year. Very interested in all of your opinions.
Also, I'm curious how do you resolve the conflict between virility and perfect comb type? It seems there is nothing simple about any of these issues, very confusing for me. Just when I think I know which path to take... "when I come to a fork in the road I take it". (??)

reneggaide wrote:
The question, what is a chantecler with strait comb is a good question. It would be too easy for me to say it's a chicken, so I have to ask what is the most important thing which defines the breed? I'm thinking it's the ability to thrive in the Canadian environment, providing quality eggs/meat through the year. Very interested in all of your opinions.
(??)

I think that you have to look at each breed as a whole. As in the chicken world there are no pedigrees and the bird is judged on what it is by its visual characteristics. So a single combed Partridge Chantecler would then be viewed as a Partridge Plymouth Rock or something similar.

Many breeds are known for their winter hardiness and dual purpose traits so the comb type, body shape, plumage colour, eye and leg colour, even the egg colour are traits that define what a breed is.

Working with Rare heritage breeds with limited genetics or flock size does make things interesting and yes we sometimes have to sacrifice a trait to improve the flock as a whole. But we also need to be able to correct that trait lost as soon as possible.

Is there any way you can bring in a new rooster from somewhere not too far that may be stronger for breeding from. Sometimes we forget that we don't always have to breed from just what we raised that year.

I have been trying to obtain some nice Partridge Chanteclers and this year only managed to hatch out 8 chicks from the eggs I got.

Of the 4 cockerels one has big wattles, rose comb, poor colour and poor type, another is nicely coloured and type but way to small, the next one has poor colour, okay comb but not is too narrow and upright, the last cockerel has the greatest size very nice colouring and comb but has a crazy amount of feather stubs on his legs. So not one of them is making it into the breeding pen. All of them into the freezer. I am on the hint for a nice Partridge male.

Nicely put krl. Wish I could help with a cockerel, but as you read, I am having troubles of my own!

Ahh! all the problems of breeders striving to produce the best they can. Sometimes I find with a breed that I too am at a fork in the road not having the stock to make that next step, so I will either take a year off if you have females that are young enough to do that with ans srearch hard for that male or will make that the year I might try a male that 'I normally won't, say one a bit bigger or smaller or narrower in body and I will then only maybe mate that male with say 2 special picked females to compliement his weak spots , all the young will be identifed by toe punch or the like. You might be surprised what you get in the young stock or you might not get anything and all the young can be eliminmated from the program easily if the breeding dosn't work, perhaps better than losing a year. But don't use birds with disqualifying faults for this type of thing.

Remembering and reminding ones self that you will not get perfection but oh, the fun trying to get there. Happy breeding my friends

Heather

edited to insert the word "not"

What excellent advice, Heather. It is nice to hear that kind of advice from someone with your experience. Thanks

This is a great thread about cushion combs with lots of pictures!

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coopslave wrote:This is a great thread about cushion combs with lots of pictures!

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Well that was just excellent! Thank you for another great link, coopslave! The author put lots of time and effort into this. All those photos really help to illustrate the comb differences being discussed.
I was surprised to learn that one of those roosters with an especially odd, lumpy comb was still being used for breeding. I have to say that I would have passed over that rooster without another thought, regardless of his other fine attributes. I guess that is one aspect of breeding I'm not quite comfortable with yet. I'll be needing more experience and confidence before deciding to breed a bird with an obvious fault like a weird-looking lumpy comb.

That is an awesome thread, thanks for sharing it Coopslave. I can't get tired of looking at any chanteclers, but when there's a lesson in each pic it's great!

Lots of good pictures to look at. Thanks coopslave. I call that comb on that male comb a mess.

Heather