A simple question that many ask.

A simple question that many ask about breeding was answered so well on another forum I really would like to post a link to it. I think you can view it as a guest. I hope this isn`t against the `rules`, it is not about hijacking, just about information. I don`t want to take this other person`s words, so I would like everyone to read it as posted.
I will be saving it myself to go back over next spring when I put my pens together. It is worth a read and reread I think.
Make sure you go down as far as macl27`s post.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Nice find Coopslave! Thanks so much for sharing. I've already copy and pasted macl27's post to a Word document so I'll have it for handy reference.

WOO, I love this site.

Great information, will try and figure out how to keep it.

Information overload.....

AWESOME.... thanks for sharing this link.

DO note these two points from Macl27's post:

"First, “an inbreeder must breed only from his most vigorous… specimens” (Tan Bark, Game Chickens, 1964, p. 28). Second, they culled ruthlessly."

This is too often ignored. Inbreeding without culling is a bad idea, and selling your rejects to unsuspecting newbies is . . . well, not a good thing to do.

If you aren't prepared to cull, don't inbreed.

I will not forget ipf. “Breed only the best, cull the rest” shall be my breeding motto. At the very least we’ll always have a full freezer.

ipf, you raise this point often when these discussions come up, and I am glad you do because people must know that you have to do it.
I think what people often forget though is if you are outcrossing and wanting to breed purebreds that even come close to having a chance to meet the standard, you will have to cull just as ruthlessly. Culling is not something that has to happen to get good birds from inbreeding, it is just as important, if not more so when outcrossing!!!
We have been having some posts about purebreds that are showing chick down that is not quite right for the breed. That is what can happen when you outcross as you are adding genes that will pop up. Outcrossing always gives some surprises that a properly run line/inbreeding program will not give you.
It is all about education and doing your homework. Making choices for the right reasons and learning from the mistakes that happen. That is all part of the fun!

"Breed the best, cull the rest"

Words that should have broader applications than just chickens.

Now Fowler, that wouldn’t be very politically correct.

coopslave wrote:
It is all about education and doing your homework. Making choices for the right reasons and learning from the mistakes that happen. That is all part of the fun!

I couldn't agree more. Fun, fun!

There are a multitude of goals in breeding chickens. One is to have healthy productive vigorous birds. Another is to breed “perfect” birds, i.e. birds that meet the standard of perfection. These two goals are quite distinct, and the methods to achieve them are necessarily different. Furthermore, they are largely incompatible.

Breeding to standard, I can see, necessitates inbreeding. Inbreeding invariably results, on average, in reduced vigour, productivity, size, fertility – the list goes on. A little inbreeding affects these traits a little; a high level of inbreeding can have a large effect. The only way to reduce the effects of inbreeding is to cull heavily. This means killing large numbers of chicks and young birds. It also means not allowing the parents of defective chicks to mate again, since they have proven to both carry a defective gene.

Heavy culling may also be important when outcrossing if your objective is the “perfect” bird, but for very different reasons. And the culls from an outcrossing are likely to be perfectly nice healthy productive birds that could add colour and diversity to someone’s backyard flock, even if their down colour or leg feathering don’t conform to someone’s idea of “perfection”.

Back to inbreeding. Inbreeding is, quite simply, mating among relatives. The progeny are then referred to as inbred. Non-inbred individuals are referred to as outcrossed.

All animals carry a number of deleterious recessive alleles at a number of gene loci. A deleterious recessive allele is a gene that, if an animal has two copies of it, will be expressed and show a negative (sometimes lethal) trait. If an animal has only one copy, there will be no visible effect.

Inbreeding is a continuum, and the level of inbreeding is calculated as the inbreeding coefficient, F, which is the probability that the two alleles at a locus are identical by decent (IBD). Inbreeding increases the probability of offspring carrying two IBD alleles at any given locus. F ranges from 0 (outcrossed; from the mating of two unrelated birds) to 1 (where every gene locus carries identical alleles on each of the two paired chromosomes). Mating of birds that are not only inbred but related to each other increases the value of F (and accentuates the effects of inbreeding). In practice of course F is never truly 0, because all chooks are related way back there, and it’s never going to be 1, either. But it’s the concept that matters. The calculation of the inbreeding coefficient is rather mathematical.

Inbreeding WILL result in the expression of deleterious alleles, at a higher rate than outcrossing. This is why inbreeding gets bad press, and is not generally recommended, in people. Even Christianity reflects this in its ban on marrying close relatives. Think about all those bad “cousin” jokes.

The expression of deleterious alleles is either good, if you see it as a way of identifying birds that carry deleterious alleles so that you can remove the carriers from the gene pool, or bad, if you expect most of your chicks to grow up to be normal productive chickens (as some “breeders” do, and then sell them to unsuspecting purchasers). Culls from inbreeding programs should not be foisted on the unsuspecting public.

Having said all that, with a methodical, intensive, and long term breeding program, including test matings and horrifyingly heavy culling levels, these deleterious genes can be removed from the breeding population, one by one. Once you’ve got them out, you can, in theory, inbreed to your heart’s content.

This process is not for the faint of heart however, and probably not for anyone who thinks that all life is worthy of consideration and respect.

If you don’t follow this process, then inbreeding will eventually bring woes.

Apparently someone is breeding lavender orpingtons out this way. I recently visited a woman who proudly showed me her lavender orp. The bird was, admittedly, a beautiful colour. But the poor thing could barely walk; and had multiple physical defects. I am 99% certain the bird was highly inbred, and that the breeder hadn’t culled heavily in the breeding program.

Anyhow, don’t take my word for any of this stuff; read the literature. And I don’t mean laymen’s writings on poultry sites, I mean scientific, peer-reviewed research. The inescapable conclusion is that inbreeding, on its own, has bad consequences.

This is so weird, that link doesn't work for me at all, no idea why. Weirder still, I can't even get into [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] or forum.backyardpoultry.com
Any techie people here who would have any idea why I can't get into this website?

ipf we seem to flog this dead horse often. You do state a lot of mathematical statistics about the effects of inbreeding, but have you ever done it with chickens? If you haven't I can tell you that I have. Closed flock for 10 years and know other breeders that have had closed flock for many more.

I have said this before, I have never had the problems you talk of because I always choose vigorous birds. I don't hatch from pullet eggs, not because of the size of the egg, but because the bird has not proven herself yet. I have never had to cull heavily, ever and my culling has always been finding new homes for birds that do not meet the standard because of markings or type, not chopping the heads off of grotesque birds. I do not hatch from birds that do not prove to be resistant to disease, I had a Mareks resistant line of a breed notorious to be susceptible to it. I don't like to vaccinate so I choose to breed this way if I can. It I start with a line that appears to me to be inbred, I have one at the moment, I begin the breedings usually with an outcross and then work my way back to what I want.

It sounds to me like you have seen birds that have been inbred from people that are very careless about the methods that they use. If done properly there are not lots of rejects and especially not because of physical or production problems. Brood stock is of utmost importance to be successful.
So instead of pushing the evils of it, is it not best to show how it can be done successfully, without the issues you mention. There are some of us that do want a breed to look like it should. I don't show, but I do take pride in my birds and want them to be beautiful, vigorous, productive specimens and look like the breed they are supposed to represent. To do this I use inbreeding, and not to get out recessives as you often state, but to solidify the vigorous traits I want in my birds. I use outcrossing as well, but very little and with caution.

I often feel that I am forced to defend inbreeding when this comes up and I don't like having to do that. I think it is just a tool and if people want to use it, they should educate themselves on how to do it successfully. I grow tired of repeating myself and I am sure people grow tired of reading about it. I will probably post more information about how to do it if I come across anything that sounds good, but I have decided not to personally defend it again. Make your own decisions and don't just take my word or anybody elses about it and breed carefully, for vigour and fertility and enjoy the beautiful chickens you produce, no matter the method you choose.

I agree, I too am getting tired of this topic, and apologise to those who have read too many of my posts about it. I'm not against inbreeding, I'm just trying to present the (too seldom heard, IMO) other side of it, to discourage the uninformed from practicing it for the sake of convenience.

I wish it were a dead horse, but I still see a lot of questions, interest and ingnorance around the subject, so if you and I can educate through polite argument, I think it is perhaps still useful.

Clearly once a population or species hads gone through a tight genetic bottleneck, many/most deleterious alleles have been purged - witness cheetahs, for example. And this can happen with chickens too, with a lot of hard work.

I've spent my whole working life as a geneticist, and admit freely that I'm interested in the theory behind it.

I agree, it is "best to show how it can be done successfully"; but along with that I think it is important to point out the risks.

I think that you spent many years in Australia, where new bird imports are virtually impossible, is that correct? So you would of course have had to figure out how to do it right. I've been very impressed at the depth of genetic knowledge in Australian poultry breeders.

I have to say that I always appreciate these threads. I've been a keeper of chickens for a number of years but a pretty green breeder. I did a lot of research before I even mated up a pair but that doesn't account for much and I can't add much to these threads except for this. I can imagine that it feels to both of you that you keep flogging the dead horse but to me and other newbies to breeding or to keeping chickens altogether, it's important information and repetition is not necessarily a bad thing nor is presenting different perspectives. I think a lot of people are like water, take the easy way, so reminders of the pros and cons are good. Already too many people putting brother & sister together with no thought or idea of proper selection, and/or no proper culling. Well I don't want to start a large debate really. I just wanted to say from my perspective, I learn a lot from these threads, so I hope they don't stop. Lots of newbies coming on board with lots to learn. Oh and also, I appreciate the respect I hear in this thread, for each other and to each other despite the different perspectives.

^Big honking DITTO.

I appreciate the “breeding threads” more than I can express tonight and hope everyone will continue to respectfully discuss (and even debate) the different techniques, etc for a long time to come.

Lilfarm, did you ever get the link to work?

Make your own decisions and don't just take my word or anybody elses about it and breed carefully, for vigour and fertility and enjoy the beautiful chickens you produce, no matter the method you choose.

^ Great advice for the novice and experienced breeder alike.

Flicker Chick wrote:Lilfarm, did you ever get the link to work?

No I didn't and I can't figure out why not. I thought maybe a setting on my personal computer so tried from my Itouch but no go there either. Weird eh. I'll bug my husband tomorrow see if he can figure it out. He got home late from work today and I didn't want the first thing popping out of my mouth to be "Honey, can you see if you can figure out why I can't log on to this Australian chicken forum?" I'm dying to read it though.

.

For anyone that the link doesn`t work for, if you are interested I can try sending you the single post in the word document that I saved it to. Sorry it is not working for everyone.

I also apologise for my last post. I sounded a bit grumpy in it. It is haying season, so I will use that as an excuse. I do enjoy debate and differences of opinons, but I don`t want everyone getting tired of ipf and I going round and round. I respect the research and education involved, but there are ways of doing things that work better than others. I am glad people are getting something out of the posts and not just thinking `here they go again!`

I probably should stay out of this as linebreeding and inbreeding and all that are part of a great issue, that i am perhaps too passionate about.
A few things that often fail to get mentioned are definitions of inbreeding and how breeds were/are formed.
Inbreeding in a very simple definition is breeding within a breed. So therefore any matings of a bird to another bird of the same breed, means you are inbreeding.
Breeds, other than some which are almost always created continually, because they aren't actually breeds (unable to breed true to their breed, mostly factory type birds), are basically created by selection of a small genetic base and doing matings until a type/function is fixed and breeds relatively true. It is virtually impossible to do this without inbreeding, otherwise you would just be creating crossbreds.
So to make it simple, if you are breeding a breed, you are inbreeding. What confuses most, is the fact that way too many people confuse linebreeding and inbreeding. Inbreeding is just mating within a breed. Linebreeding is mating within a line. In almost all cases, linebreeding starts with a superior (in at least one persons opinion) individual, and then you try to increase the frequency of that individuals genetics in a population (flock or even portion of a flock).
Risks and benefits of linebreeding. Well, the benefits are that you can fx certain characteristics, to a degree which is normally very difficut to do, with simply crossing lines. Simply put, it is the quickest way to fix good traits. On the other hand, it can be the quickest way to fix bad traits. Now for what irks me the most, the assumption that linebreeding creates or is the only way to get, the really bad genetic things. This is so wrong. It is just the same as fixing traits,it is the fastest way to expose the really bad genetic defects. Simply put, they have to be there before you start, for them to show up. And since it is one persons choice of which individuals they use to start linebreeding, does it mean that every person would choose the same individuals. No, and it sure doesn't mean that every linebred population has a serious defect hidden within.
Now as IPF pointed out( although misepresented as inbred), things like fertility can be issues within linebred populations. But they can also be issues in non linebred populations.
As is always the case, the breeder is the one responsible for the culling. So as long as a breeder culls and watches things, like fertility, then things are fine. the biggest problem is that most people try to work with too small of a population and have strong tendencies to become overly narrow in their focus, ie: showring type.

And just a note, for anyone who wishes to use humans as an example and beieves in Christianity, please do your homework and reread the bible, before using it as your basis for argument. True belief in the bible would mean all clean animals are at a inbreeding coefficient of .50.

I raise purebred poultry and rabbits, where the rabbits (Flemish Giants in two color varieties) still have the priority. I only out cross when I absolutely have to, that is when I need something in my herd that is missing/lacking, like body length for instance. You can select for vigor and fertility also and if I need new blood, I seldom go with a new male animal. A new hen bred to my best proven rooster, or a new doe with my best proven buck is a safer way of bringing in new blood in my opinion. I only carry on with animals that are equal to or better then the parents. It is also very important to hold on to your old animals that have proven themselves. Good health, vigor and fertility should be your first and foremost selection criteria, no matter what kind of animals you are breeding.

Piet

Thanks Coyote Acres, I have always called it line breeding, but I had found here in Canada people seem to prefer to call it inbreeding so I was just trying to go with the flow. I still have trouble calling things the right names sometimes, I suppose that is what you get when you have lived in 2 different hemispheres! I don`t want to sound like more of and idiot than I already do sometimes!!!

One of hubby`s favourite sayings about cattle is `line breeding when it works, in breeding when it doesn`t!`

What you have said is pretty much what I think as well. A person does not just enhance the bad stuff when they breed close, you enhance the good stuff too. It is all about balance. I think ipf is just trying to build caution and understanding into the whole process and breeders experienced in this process already have that, but new people may not. When we first started all this I thought there was a real `do not do this` out there, but I think I begun to understand it is more a `please proceed with caution` message. I would like people to do it the right way for sure, for the health and longevity of you birds.

I see this as a long term hobby and I think that is why it is important to me. I can see myself still working on my lines in 20 years time, so I have to be very careful. That is why it is a good idea to try to find a breeder to start with if you want to be serious. Fly by nighters into the fast buck just don`t give a sh*t and only want your money. If I know I am starting with a line that has been bred pretty tight for a few years, I will do an outcross of some sort right away and then work back to what I want. I want to develop my own lines anyways, not just clone someone elses. Even now when people ask me for eggs I am hesitant as I don`t know what I will be producing and want to be sure before I sell eggs. It is all about personal preference and what direction you want to go.

I am so glad that others are sharing their experiences with breeding. It is how we learn what works. I seem to `tweek` my ideas all the time and try things that work and others that don`t.

These posts are so helpful to read. It is very important to consider culling when contemplating breeding of any type of animal, however perhaps it is easier in animals such as dogs - placement in pet homes on spay/neuter contracts is a lot more reliable then selling "cull" hens or roosters to someone else to perhaps use for their own 'breeding program'.

I approach things from a moderately different angle... alot of what I do is based on availability. I have some neat breeds that aren't very easy to come by and sometimes all there are available is siblings, so we line breed mostly. This year I have had very good fertility with most of my breeds, excellent health and vigour of the chicks and only one case where one chick developed a crossed beak as a juvenille.

At the moment, we have quite a few different breeds/varieties. Well, mostly 3 breeds - marans, orpingtons and sussex, but a few different color variations. I haven't exactly decided what I like the best yet, and when I was out "chicken shopping" there were so many wonderful options I couldn't pick just one. Perhaps some people think that I am not dedicated or irresponsible because I don't have "just one" breed of chicken to focus on, but I assure you many, many hours go into assessing my breeding stock before I put together a breeding pen. This spring I culled half of my black copper flock to create a breeding pen I was happy with.

Ideally, I would be able to work with my poultry more before I sold hatching eggs or chicks so that I can develop my flocks more before selling the offspring. But, at the time I am a student in university paying for it on my own without student loans, etc. So, if I want to keep chickens, I do need them to help pay for themselves, and selling eating eggs alone doesn't cut it with the crazy price of feed. So, I sell chicks and eggs to help them pay for themselves so that I can continue to enjoy my hobby. I don't thing it's wrong to sell hatching eggs and chicks to help get to where you need to be, so long as you are responsible about it.


I am very lucky to have the help and support of my parents as far as chores and building pens go, and we are very thrifty and recycle alot to build our pens.

I suppose I'm just posting to bring into light that although people such as myself want to 'do the right thing' and follow a stringent breeding plan, it doesn't always work out that way. I cull my birds by putting roo's in the freezer and hens in the laying flock, and I don't use very slow growing birds, poor layers, or aggressive roosters for breeding. But, could I put every single bird I breed in a show and win first place or have my heritage bird out lay or out "meat" the hybrid birds? Probably not. That's something to work towards.

Thanks, IPF and Coopslave, for bringing up things to think about and reasons for and how and why.

Honestly, I am leaning more towards the idea of "closed flocks" as I am very leery of bringing in poultry that is any older then day old chicks based on past experiences where I have purchased poultry from seemingly healthy flocks, only to have bad things happen.

Anyways, thanks and keep it up!

Just one comment/clarification - the definition of inbreeding is "mating between relatives", not "mating within a breed". Mating within a breed will always be inbreeding (sometimes very mild inbreeding, though). But one can also inbreed without mating within a bereed, for example mating a brother and sister resulting from a cross between an Ameraucana and a leghorn. That's not mating within a breed, but it is most definitely inbreeding.

Also, linebreeding IS inbreeding, since the two birds are related.

Again, don't take my word for it; google "inbreeding".

Am I the only one who finds the terms inbreeding/line breeding and the different ways they’re used rather confusing at times?

Okay, what I’ve gathered from the posts above (thank you all for sharing btw!) and various reading is:

Inbreeding is breeding within a breed of birds.
Line breeding is breeding within a line (or family) of related birds.
So therefore both are technically inbreeding when you cut right to the chase. I guess it just depends how technical and in depth you want to get...

I'm like you Coopslave. I see this being a life-long hobby (as I'm sure others do too) and want to do the best I can by my birds. I don't doubt I will make mistakes and have setbacks, but I do plan to use inbreeding/line breeding as a tool to get me to where I want to go. Proceeding with utmost caution of course.

Hmm, I hope that made sense. It sounded better in my head.

ANY instance of mating between relatives is inbreeding.
"Mating within a breed" is inbreeding.
Linebreeding is also inbreeding.