Poultry Guardian Dog or killer?

I have posted this on my Livestock Guardian Guru site, but all of them think chickens are stupid..and my chickens just couldn't help it...they are babies
Anyone here have experience with LGD and poultry. My LGD is a pup; only 10.5 months old, and has killed two chickens in the past few days, and one the week before. Two are just youngsters, and they probably squeaked through some panels in Luka's (the dog) pen. I have to fortify for babies now...
not eaten, just dead...the latest was in his straw bale house. Another was an adult that was left outside in the sheep night pen...we didn't do a head count that night and went out in the morning and she was dead.

I have been told my the group that they are not to be trusted around small livestock until they are at least 2 yrs old...and that they are still puppies until around that age, when they mellow and can be trusted. I have been told that i need to just keep his area chicken proofed...

anyone? He is a complete gem other than being a chicken killer- he loves my sheep, me..really a huge teddy bear..but he still tracks sideways when running like puppies do. he is so much still a puppy.

Don't have LGD but I never leave my GSD's in my chicken yard ever with the chickens, never ever ever. If the chicken moves, dogs will chase. And once they have a taste nothing good comes from that.

I have a friend who can trust her LGD's with chickens, but they are 6,7 and 8 years old. 2 pyrenese and a collie, all rescues. But I don't know that it's always been that way...

Good luck and hopefully someone with more experience gives you some helpful advice.

Bull is incredible around the chickens and, when alone, Lola does quite well but on occasion, will randomly pick one off. I've gotten back into the rhythm of trusting her, and it'll likely bite me.

The pups, on the other hand, play-with-until-dead birds-a-plenty, which was found out the hard way. I've been working with them one on one this past week I've been off, and as long as I am out there and they are away from the other puppies, the dogs will avoid the birds.

I think you have to be lucky, really. No matter what, it's a predator watching prey that's significantly smaller and weaker. They don't have the same instincts towards birds as they do things like sheep, goats, cows and so on as I don't think there has truly been a dog bred for protection of birds. Lola chases hawks and owls, and kills coyotes. Not much more I could ask for.

Have never dealt with a LGD, but have had many different dogs and chickens and never lost a single chicken to a dog.

The instinct to kill/hunt is present in all dogs and if we think it's not, we are fools. This is a dog, not a sheep.

To imagine that a LGD will 'grow out' of this instinct is utterly ridiculous. In fact, as he becomes a faster, stronger, more co-ordinated adult, his hunting skills should improve, not dwindle.

I think the advice to wait it out and he will one day spontaneously NOT be a chicken killer is very bad advice.

If you want to develop this dog into a useful member of your farm you start now, not later. It will take concentrated effort and time, not hope, for him to learn.

I know how I have handled my own dogs, but if you want the advice of a LGD owner, I cannot give it.

Lots of people here say they hold a chicken and pet it and then pet their dog while making cooing sounds, look at the nice chickee, what a good doggie, let's all be buddies. THIS IS NOT HOW I DO IT!

But there are many people here who do live with LGDs and I don't doubt there is plenty of wisdom out there.

I want to give you some feedback, but I don't have direct experience with livestock guardian dogs.
I do have a breed that is from the deep south and used for that in the old days and we also have high energy working dogs.
These dogs, both types, do not mature until two years old.  I am very careful with the chickens.  My female WEB (old style dog) is 3 now and excellent with the chooks.  She is my chook chore dog.  She is lose all day with them free range and she will be laying, sleeping with them pecking her tail.  We hang out with the chooks a lot.  
Having said that when I have to catch something and it flaps and frets, she is right there interested.  I am not sure if she would do anything, but I usually have a word to her.
I think it is important to desensitise them to the chickens and teach them that they are YOURS!  Any deviation from that has consequences.  Usually with smart dogs if you set rules and boundaries they are good with it.  I don't trust the other working dogs as much, but I haven't spent the time with them.  They know the chooks belong to me, but I would not trust them free range with them for long term.
They can kill without meaning to kill by playing with them.  Not an excuse just a fact.  Teach him he is not to play with them either.  Has he eaten them?  That changes it a bit I think.
I think if you are strong with him for a bit and spend lots of time, you won't have any trouble.  Very sharp learning curve at the age he is at, make sure he is learning the right stuff.

My German Shepherd killed about 3 chickens in the beginning. The first 2 accidentally got locked in her kennel when I went out. One was all wet and the other dead when I came back. We tied a dead chicken around her neck for about a week, then left it on top of her kennel for another week. I also spent time sitting in the yard with her, with the chickens walking loose, and every time she twitched a muscle in their direction I would firmly say 'leave it!' and put her on her side, lay on top of her, and stay there until she stopped struggling. This was when she was about 7 months old. After a couple of hours she was good. She is now turning 7 and has never hurt a chicken since then. You have to be careful never to chase your chickens, though, or she thinks we are playing 'chase the chickens', and she wants to play too. 'Leave it' became the phrase for everything I didn't want her to touch. She always backs off when I say it.

We got a 12 week old Maremma 3 years ago to protect the goats. It was a little more than 2 years before he could be trusted not to 'play' with them. Now we have chickens and goats living in his paddock and they are safe.

My pyr/st Bernard cross would maul the birds to death trying to bring them to me. He never ate them. I would take the dead bird put a string on it so it would "move" and wiggle it, when he focused in on the wiggling bird I would tap his nose and say "no mine". It only took a couple times with that. My pure pyr boy was a little more difficult to deal with as he came from a nasty situation and does not trust people at all, even us who have never bothered him!! With him he had an obsession with my lavender Muscovy hen. He left every other bird alone but just would not leave her. Being I could not be near him, I stood back and let her swim in a puddle. When he focused on her I threw a rock (which did not hit him) and yelled "no mine". I only had to do this twice. Both dogs were 6 months at the time and neither has bothered to touch a bird since. Tug, my pyr cross will still pick a hurt bird up very gently and bring it to me but has never mauled one again. If he can't pick it up he will come and whine near me. Tug is approx 20 months and Red is just one year old now. I did the same with Tug on the rabbits that were loose in my yard after he killed one. Now they can run all over the yard and neither dog will touch them!

I personally think if you found the chick in his bed, he was probably trying to "protect it" by taking it to his bed. When young they have troubled controlling the pressure they put on the bird with their mouth and feet! Once they have been "told" those are yours, and they have it understood, they seem to leave them be! But will protect them!! I found one other thing that also helps is to place the fog in a kennel chick safe in the middle if their pen for a couple days. They learn to ignore the chicks! I did this with an older dog I brought home. After 2 days he no longer had interest in the birds even when they flew around his head, but look out ravens and crows! He would jump and snag them out of the air when they swooped at my birds!

This is my experience with LGDs! Good luck with your boy!!

Basque, the great Pyr would play with chickens and ducks until they died when he was a youngster. It was not malicious. This continued until he met up with the flock of geese who cornered him and pulled out his fur until he cried. He would never look at a bird after that and hid behind me and cowered if they came by. Now he is 3 and doesn't bother with poultry.

when we got our lab it was the middle of winter. She was 6 months old, no training and was a wild as a lab can be. We had a lot of snow that year and it was perfect. Everytime she tried to chase a chicken I would pick her up and pin her in the snow. Tell her no chasing. I had to do it half a dozen times or so. I think the neighbour thought I must be crazy picking up the dog and tossing her into the snow. She learned pretty quick. Funny thing was the 1st few times I got new birds she thought it was fair game but she had learned. She is now a trusted member of the flock.

My black lab was managed to grab 4 chickens in the first months we had her. At ten months old, she killed 7 baby chicks when I was away from home. After that every time she even looked interested in a chicken I would say very loudly and firmly' No! my chickens'. If she was too interested I would throw her on her back and hold her down using the same exact words. I really didn't believe I could ever trust her. She is just over a year now. We have had 45 chicks hatch at all different times.They are all out on the property together and there have been no problems. She still sometimes gets a little interested, especially if I am trying to chase one into the yard. All I have to do is say 'my chickens' to her and she lays down and pretends they are not there.

Really, the key is having your dog's respect and then making clear that the chickens belong to you and he/she is not to touch them.

lgd are immature for a long time, given time and training they can be great with poultry. I had one that would break up a fight but would let mating happen.When they are young they want to play all the time so poultry are very tempting. Don't let them watch you butcher the birds. All the training advise is good. You need to be the pack leader but they are instinct dogs so they go if they think there is trouble regardless of what you say.

I can't trust any of my dogs with the birds...Not even for a second!

Tug my pyr/st bernard brought me a chick that momma duck hatched and kicked out today!! I swear that poor chick will be traumatized for life!! Just picture it, a poor little fluff ball fully inside my boys mouth, drenched in slobber, then dropped into my unsuspecting hand. The poor little thing was slimed and then covered in dirt as I thought Tug had brought me a mouse at first and I dropped it!! He/she is now happily chirping with the rest of my chicks!! I still can't believe my 1.5 yr old dog did not swollow that little critter!!

thanks everyone
indeed, all very good advise..will start the "mine...all mine" and see how he takes it. So far, babies have been kept locked up so they can't squeeze through his fencing and into his pen, and is of course under supervision at all times when he is out with birds. I have to do some doctoring tonight on a crooked toe and we will see how he responds.
Personally...i think i am going to like saying
"Mine....ALL mine"

smokyriver wrote:Tug my pyr/st bernard brought me a chick that momma duck hatched and kicked out today!!  I swear that poor chick will be traumatized for life!!  Just picture it, a poor little fluff ball fully inside my boys mouth, drenched in slobber, then dropped into my unsuspecting hand. The poor little thing was slimed and then covered in dirt as I thought Tug had brought me a mouse at first and I dropped it!!  He/she is now happily chirping with the rest of my chicks!! I still can't believe my 1.5 yr old dog did not swollow that little critter!!

  . thank goodness that poultry don't imprint like ducks do, smiling. He would surely have thought that Tug was the mamma   . I remember my Niece absconded with several of my Muscovy ducklings just after they were hatched (I encouraged her to do this) and boy, those ducklings for the longest time thought that she was the mother. Have a most wonderful day, CynthiaM.