Encouraging Heritage Breeders

Imagine a world where nobody was interested in heritage breeds anymore, and content to allow factories raise our food. Or maybe you have the most perfect specimen of a breed, but there are no shows to take it to, no sales to talk about it or sell it at, no forums interested in what you have to say, and nobody interested in what you are even doing.

Unless new people are encouraged and supported all across the fancy, whether it be chickens, cows, pigs, waterfowl or even heritage seeds, all that hard work is liable to be buried with you when you go. And unfortunately so many are so wrapped up in their own birds, their own ideals that they deliberately try to squash new people out of the fancy they are involved in. They have such an opportunity to help guide, shape and inspire and instead they are so discouraging.

The saddest thing is that often these people who belittle others do often have good specimens, but are so abrasive that they discourage anyone from dealing with them. And the only comments they make are when the opportunity arises to make a negative one, or where their knowledge is used in a negative way instead of positive.

I get there will always be politics and negativity in anything. But what good is it to intentionally drive away the very people that you need in order for your breed/variety/type, or what ever it is you have, to succeed. Or maybe your variety is different, and being positive could draw someone to your variety.  What's the sense in breeding for perfection if the line dies with you, you have nothing to compare it too, or your flock is sold to a hatchery.

So why not encourage new people instead of jumping all over them? Different people have different reasons for what they do. I for one believe so much focus has been on feathers that in many breeds, we have lost the dual purpose which is supposed to be the purpose of heritage chickens. Good eggs and lots of them. Edible and decent carcasses. I'll take both of those first before and above anything else. But you'd have to ask before you'd know the answer to that question. And that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I was inspired to go more this route after meeting a lady last year at a Qualicum Beach sale, who had the most impressive chicken, in my mind- a HUGE barred rock rooster. He was big, beefy and absolutely impressive. So much bigger than anything there. And after speaking with me for a while, I was inspired to also focus on utility traits first and feathers last. Ideally both, but if forced to choose, I choose the meaty carcass and eggs first.

Here's a real scenario. I am new to the Ossabaw pig. I have two gilts and a boar. I have been searching and have found 4 other people who also have Ossabaws and are interested in preserving the breed. I have inspired another newbie in the breed and they are on the waiting list for piggies. I have found the original importer of Ossabaws to Canada, and he seems to be a wealth of knowledge. I'm not an expert in Ossabaws, but as I find info I can share it with the other 4 plus 1, and if we all work together hopefully keeping them inspired also inspiring others, then maybe in 20 years when all our borders are shut down to importing, if we worked together we still might have Ossabaws in Canada.

I could go the other way too...look at the other four as competition and not share info, not be helpful, hoard the info I am finding, make them feel stupid  and discourage them at any turn. Now which scenario will result in the longevity of the breed. I think the answer is pretty simple. Unfortunately so many people would choose the latter.

And to be clear, I understand that sometimes debate can lead to good education. An example is Higgins Rats post on wyandottes. Im guessing that post was inspired by another recent thread. She put a lot of work into her own post, and I'm sure that people will be referencing it for a long time to come.  Helpful information to people who want to breed to the SOP for specific feather traits, in the right place. And i dont have to agree with everything in it either, but thats my choice. And I know that people are still referencing Coopslaves posts on Barnevlders on a forum from her previous country...I found many, many of the posts from years back, and they are still being referenced and talked about, and referenced enough they show on google searches. Good information in the right place.

But there is a time and place, and when the time or place is not appropriate, it is nothing but discouraging.

I'm working hard at my Barnevlders, and am pretty pleased with my progress, good size and weights AND some pretty laced birds to boot. Pretty excited. I won't know about laying till late next year.   Will I post pics - probably not as there are too many people ready to jump all over someone else's hard work. Constructive critisim is good when asked for, and when it is constructive. But critisim can also be extremely harsh, destructive and mean. And I don't think I'm up to it right now.

I'm here, I'm not going anywhere, but just saying. When was the last time you encouraged someone new to your breed (s)?

You go girl!:-)

I am one of those people who are new to chickens, and to heritage breeds.

Know what? I WANT to hear what's wrong with my birds. I want the nitty gritty abrasive comments - because they're truthful. I am a big girl, not a five year old who needs someone to hold my hand and make sure my feelings aren't hurt.

I am INSPIRED by criticism, not the other way around. I want to breed the best birds I possibly can. I learn more from someone saying "the waddles are too big, tail set too low, legs not yellow enough, head too narrow" than someone saying, "nice bird. Good luck with it."

I have had some wonderful people on this forum give me incredible advice about how to proceed with my breeding goals. I appreciate things that are not sugar coated.

I have not had anyone discourage me from breeding the same breeds as them - quite the opposite, in fact.

This forum is small, but has a great group of people. The knowledge here, from serious breeders and poultry exhibitors, is outstanding. And if it's not wrapped up in a pretty little package and presented with a hug and a cookie, I am more than fine with that.

Excellent Post, Island Lady!

I have long thought about running an 'awareness' booth at Agribition. Working with the show every year for the past 3 years (on the internal media standpoint), I have come to know pricing for booth rental and so on, and, really, it is NOT pricey at all when you consider the exposure you will get.

I thought a booth for Rare Breeds Canada with some live specimens and their breeders would be excellent, along with a booth for "Small acreage solutions" for livestock including heritage breeds and so on would be a wonderful way to forge awareness. If 5+ people got together with some critters, created a display and worked together on the information for a year, splitting whatever costs evenly, it wouldn't be a costly venture at all, really. You could even form a non-profit society for heritage awareness or whatever.

I'd love to expose the convenience of Guineas for pest control and the versitility of heritage breeds.

I posted this over at ACE. I will repost it here too as I know some are not over there. I am just copy and pasting as I am to lazy to do another long original. I do like to normally post each forum separately as usually the people are a little different from one to the other. I apologise for my 'form letter' type approach here....

I agree with many things you have said here and you have said them well.
I think I have an idea where this has come from.
I also think it is important to encourage people new to the fancy or a breed as well. Part of that encouragement is help them identify possible hurdles in the breed they have chosen. The good and the pitfalls. Every breed has them for sure.
I am on the fence where you said if an opinion isn't asked for, don't give it. In some ways I understand this, in others I kind of want new people going into something with their eyes wide open. Not everyone is lucky enough to have a mentor to bounce questions off of. Some things are tougher to correct with breeding than others and if new people get into something they cant fix it often discourages them and they get out of the fancy. There are no perfect bird, all of us breeding them know that, but people new to breeding don't always understand what exactly they are getting into. I have to say for me that is part of the challenge and the fun of a new breed, but many find it frustrating.

I for one believe so much focus has been on feathers that in many breeds, we have lost the dual purpose which is supposed to be the purpose of heritage chickens. Good eggs and lots of them. Edible and decent carcasses. I'll take both of those first before and above anything else. But you'd have to ask before you'd know the answer to that question.

Without the shape and feather it in not a breed. I agree, some have lost the dual purpose they were bred for, but not all breeds were bred for dual purpose. Some were for egg production, some for carcass, some for survivability in their climate, some for egg colour and some just to be a pretty, fancy bird to look at and some for fighting. The history behind every breed is different. If you only want carcass and eggs you are best to go with the commercial hybrids as they give you most bang for your buck.
I struggle with this a bit as well. I have chosen a dual purpose breed as my main focus. I think on a whole the breed lacks the dual purpose it was once used for. Having said that, I also chose it for its shape and colour because those appeal to me. I think these have suffered just as much as the production has in this breed. So if I just chose for production I would definitely lose the shape of the bird because it is already in trouble. With out the shape or outline of the breed, it is not that breed, period. This is so important to understand. A white bird with yellow legs could be a Leghorn, white Rock, white Wyandotte, Rhode Island white, it is the shape of the bird that tells us which it is.
Then there is the feather. Many don't believe the feather is that important, and I think they should concentrate on solid coloured birds. The feather is so important in breeds that are laced, pencilled, spangled, mottled etc as that is what shows the variety. Quality of the feather can be the toughest part of these varieties for sure, but it must always be paid attention to as it is always very difficult to keep consistent. A balancing act every breeding season.

I have birds in my pens that are all over the shop but that is part of breeding to make them better. You have to keep juggling all the components you want to keep in your breed present and accessible. I try to be very open and honest with people about what I sell and will tell them the things they will encounter if they choose the breed and variety I have. I try to give them a good start to work with and then tell them what pitfalls to look for when the chicks start to come. I also sell some just as layers. They are good, productive birds, but would only cause someone strife in the breeding pen and I try to be open about that too, but even that is only my opinion. I have had people say the ones I have sold as layers are better than any they can get in their area and would be happy to use them as a start. That always makes me cringe a bit and offer them better birds the next season to give them a better start.

I am sorry you saw what happened as politics and negative, I can assure you that my part in it was not intended as that. I actually thought long and hard before posting. Hummed and hawed. How do you inform new people without stepping on toes. It is a tough line to walk. When I was new, I was grateful for all the information I got, but I was very lucky to have a couple of mentors in my early stages that were amazing and really protected me from things, or even encouraged me to experiment and make mistakes to learn from in some cases. Not all people are lucky enough to have that experience.

I think it is great what you are doing with the pigs. They are very cool and worth saving. You have used them as an example so I will too. If they were the wrong size, shape and colour or have the cute, hairy ridge, would you still call them Ossabaws? I think you mentioned that this pig breed has had some crosses possibly in the past (sorry if my memory is not correct on this) to keep it alive (which has to happen with rare breeds often) if you got piglets that looked more like the introduced breed, would you sell them on as Ossabaws? I bet you wouldn't because you want the new people in the breed to have good experiences with them. You have a passion for them and want new people to have a passion too. You don't strike me as being in it for the money as much as the pleasure. And I think you would take pride in passing on good representations of the breed to the new people you have introduced to it. I may be making to many assumptions here, but I have read your other posts and this is the feeling I get. If you saw someone purchasing an Ossabaw that didn't look like one, would you speak up?

Anyways, the production vs appearance is an ongoing discussion that is always around in the chicken world. It is a tough balance because things can pop up in many varieties that make you say 'what!'

I hope this has not offended or seemed politically fueled. Sometimes it is tough to share knowledge with people. Do I only share it when it is asked for? A true dilemma for me personally, I can say.

I understand how criticism feels.  It can seem like those negative comments are aimed at you personally.  It might seems as though people are purposely trying to shut you out of ‘their’ hobby instead of supporting newcomers.  But really, its not meant to be taken that way.
 
I had to grow a thick skin when I started into exhibition poultry, and I think anyone who goes that route needs to do the same thing.  Not so long ago I was told by someone very knowledgeable that my beautiful Cochin rooster was seriously lacking Cochin type, and should not even really be called a Cochin by exhibition standards.  Well that wasn’t what I wanted to hear.  I was annoyed and offended.  But later I took a long serious look at that bird I knew the assessment was right.  So instead of feeling hurt and unsupported I got my back up and became even more motivated to make better birds.
People new to the hobby need to understand something.  Remarks that sound negative and harsh are most often made by people who are the most passionate about the breed and want very much to see new people be successful. Those crusty, sometimes rude, long time breeders have the most valuable advice to offer. They have gained their knowledge through years, sometimes decades of trial and error. They have seen it all, tried it all and still persevere with their breed.

They have such an opportunity to help guide, shape and inspire and instead they are so discouraging.”  

The feedback they provide is only discouraging if you allow it to be, and if you take it as a personal insult.

People who are passionate and dedicated to a breed are often more concerned about preserving the integrity of the breed than preserving a person’s feelings.   I think the forums provide an excellent opportunity for educating, sharing information and promoting the pure breeds.  But only if people who know the breed keep offering their opinions.  Its unfortunate that you felt like you were ‘jumped on’.  It was seen as an opportunity to educate, and I think it led to an excellent discussion that probably has helped many readers of the forum with similar challenges.
I recently saw a post on another forum (in another province) where someone was proudly showing his new trio of White Chanteclers. He was new to the breed and just didn’t know much about what he had purchased.  The responses he got were so encouraging and kind…”oh, they are lovely!” and another person said, “I can’t wait until you have eggs for sale!” Then he responded, "thank you, yes!  I should have eggs for sale soon!  It was all so happy and comfortable, but I just had to chime in with a dose of reality because the rooster looked more like a little Wyandotte with a short u-shaped back and high tail.  Not something I would ever want to see in a breeding pen.    I hope that dose of reality has made a positive influence to the breed as a whole, even if it wasn’t what the person posting wanted to hear.  I think if you have studied and worked with a breed for a number of years you start to feel a responsibility to share what you have learned for the good of the whole.

Another point I would like to make is in regards to that “HUGE barred rock rooster. He was big, beefy and absolutely impressive. So much bigger than anything there.”    
Where do you think good breeding stock like this comes from?  It is by and large the show breeders who have worked year after year to preserved and improve their breeds and keep good representations available.  Its important to respect that hard work and not assume that show breeders are only interested in feather patterns.

anyway, I’m glad to hear you are continuing with your birds.  I think you will find lots of great advice and helpful people willing to support you on your journey.  Hang in there!

Ignorance may be bliss, but I've never observed it to be a meaningful state of being.

If I'm going to take the time to offer advice, it will be what I believe people need, not what they want.

Being Nazi about some SoP doesn't always mean being for what's best for the animal. We got these breeds because people bred them that way. A German shepherd that can walk normally and work a herd isn't any less of a shepherd if it doesn't have that intensely slanted back and the inability to walk without wobbly back legs. JUST because that version of the dog wins awards, doesn't mean it has a good, productive, useful life.

My mutts to just fine, and my Chanties will be pushed in the direction I want them to be, weather I breed them to other breeds for traits or not.

Sweetened wrote:Being Nazi about some SoP doesn't always mean being for what's best for the animal.  We got these breeds because people bred them that way.  A German shepherd that can walk normally and work a herd isn't any less of a shepherd if it doesn't have that intensely slanted back and the inability to walk without wobbly back legs.  JUST because that version of the dog wins awards, doesn't mean it has a good, productive, useful life.

My mutts to just fine, and my Chanties will be pushed in the direction I want them to be, weather I breed them to other breeds for traits or not.

That is great, each to his own. But if you decide you need an infusion of new Chantecler blood, you'll be glad that there are people who do breed to standard.
Also, I personally would not be encouraging traits that are not consistent with good overall health of the animal. That would be unethical, in my opinion.

KathyS wrote:That is great, each to his own.  But if you decide you need an infusion of new Chantecler blood, you'll be glad that there are people who do breed to standard.

And I am totally greatful for that. I can tell you, however, from my initial stock that, there are many people who breed for the look itself, and not the meat quality. I purchased a rooster from Chantecler Eh, and my other roo cannot even compare. Though the other rooster meets the majority of standard (minus a slightly slanted back), he barely hits the weight qualifier. Al, the roo from CE, is heavy, bulky, thick and powerful. He is just as striking to look at, but ever more so to feel him.

A breed is still a breed, whether it meets the exact SOP or not. If all the other characteristics of that bird are Chantecler but he has a slanted back, he is no less Chantecler, imho, he is just not SOP Chant. He's no less a chicken.

I dunno, I'm not anti-crossing, especially with heritage breeds. Sticking with foundation breeds is ideal and I think could really improve them and increase the gene pool. But, what do I know? Not much book learnin' really, just understanding nature.

coopslave wrote:I agree with many things you have said here and you have said them well.
I think I have an idea where this has come from.  
I also think it is important to encourage people new to the fancy or a breed as well.  Part of that encouragement is help them identify possible hurdles in the breed they have chosen.  The good and the pitfalls.  Every breed has them for sure.  
I am on the fence where you said if an opinion isn't asked for, don't give it.  In some ways I understand this, in others I kind of want new people going into something with their eyes wide open.  Not everyone is lucky enough to have a mentor to bounce questions off of.  Some things are tougher to correct with breeding than others and if new people get into something they cant fix it often discourages them and they get out of the fancy.  There are no perfect bird, all of us breeding them know that, but people new to breeding don't always understand what exactly they are getting into.  I have to say for me that is part of the challenge and the fun of a new breed, but many find it frustrating.

I for one believe so much focus has been on feathers that in many breeds, we have lost the dual purpose which is supposed to be the purpose of heritage chickens. Good eggs and lots of them. Edible and decent carcasses. I'll take both of those first before and above anything else. But you'd have to ask before you'd know the answer to that question.

Without the shape and feather it in not a breed.  I agree, some have lost the dual purpose they were bred for, but not all breeds were bred for dual purpose. Some were for egg production, some for carcass, some for survivability in their climate, some for egg colour and some just to be a pretty, fancy bird to look at and some for fighting.  The history behind every breed is different.  If you only want carcass and eggs you are best to go with the commercial hybrids as they give you most bang for your buck.
I struggle with this a bit as well.  I have chosen a dual purpose breed as my main focus.  I think on a whole the breed lacks the dual purpose it was once used for.  Having said that, I also chose it for its shape and colour because those appeal to me.  I think these have suffered just as much as the production has in this breed.  So if I just chose for production I would definitely lose the shape of the bird because it is already in trouble.  With out the shape or outline of the breed, it is not that breed, period.  This is so important to understand.  A white bird with yellow legs could be a Leghorn, white Rock, white Wyandotte, Rhode Island white, it is the shape of the bird that tells us which it is.  
Then there is the feather.  Many don't believe the feather is that important, and I think they should concentrate on solid coloured birds.  The feather is so important in breeds that are laced, pencilled, spangled, mottled etc as that is what shows the variety.  Quality of the feather can be the toughest part of these varieties for sure, but it must always be paid attention to as it is always very difficult to keep consistent.  A balancing act every breeding season.  

I have birds in my pens that are all over the shop but that is part of breeding to make them better.  You have to keep juggling all the components you want to keep in your breed present and accessible.  I try to be very open and honest with people about what I sell and will tell them the things they will encounter if they choose the breed and variety I have.  I try to give them a good start to work with and then tell them what pitfalls to look for when the chicks start to come.  I also sell some just as layers.  They are good, productive birds, but would only cause someone strife in the breeding pen and I try to be open about that too, but even that is only my opinion.  I have had people say the ones I have sold as layers are better than any they can get in their area and would be happy to use them as a start.  That always makes me cringe a bit and offer them better birds the next season to give them a better start.

I am sorry you saw what happened as politics and negative, I can assure you that my part in it was not intended as that.  I actually thought long and hard before posting.  Hummed and hawed.  How do you inform new people without stepping on toes.  It is a tough line to walk.  When I was new, I was grateful for all the information I got, but I was very lucky to have a couple of mentors in my early stages that were amazing and really protected me from things, or even encouraged me to experiment and make mistakes to learn from in some cases. Not all people are lucky enough to have that experience.

I think it is great what you are doing with the pigs.  They are very cool and worth saving.  You have used them as an example so I will too.  If they were the wrong size, shape and colour or have the cute, hairy ridge, would you still call them Ossabaws?  I think you mentioned that this pig breed has had some crosses possibly in the past (sorry if my memory is not correct on this) to keep it alive (which has to happen with rare breeds often) if you got piglets that looked more like the introduced breed, would you sell them on as Ossabaws?  I bet you wouldn't because you want the new people in the breed to have good experiences with them.  You have a passion for them and want new people to have a passion too.  You don't strike me as being in it for the money as much as the pleasure.  And I think you would take pride in passing on good representations of the breed to the new people you have introduced to it.  I may be making to many assumptions here, but I have read your other posts and this is the feeling I get.  If you saw someone purchasing an Ossabaw that didn't look like one, would you speak up?

Anyways, the production vs appearance is an ongoing discussion that is always around in the chicken world.  It is a tough balance because things can pop up in many varieties that make you say 'what!'

I hope this has not offended or seemed politically fueled.  Sometimes it is tough to share knowledge with people.  Do I only share it when it is asked for?  A true dilemma for me personally, I can say.

Coopslave, thank you for responding (cut and pasting also!).  I was kinda hoping you would - because you have been incredibly supportive in helping me to determine directions to go with regards to breeding. Your feedback is constructive, thought provoking and has helped me to decide what road to take.  The other part that is very important is that you have shared a lot of information on Barnevelders when you were breeding barnies across the pond. Your information was helpful then, and is still helpful as it is timeless and still available.  I suspect some of the genes were slightly different, and I'm basing that on the down colour of the chicks from over there vs here so may be wrong, but the end result was pretty much the same and the information on selection and breeding is still valuable to many by the responses those older threads get.  So because of your help in the past, and your help you don't even know about (For those that don't know, Coopslave posted so much info on Barnevelders she could write a book!!!) when you do comment I do listen. And your feedback when I have asked for critiques is always helpful and constructive and I value your input very much.  Others like Dan have also provided this helpful and constructive feedback, and he's been very available to my PM's with questions and queries.

But there are others in the poultry world, and they may have the best flocks in a region or country, but I don't know that because they don't share, and they don't share information about their breed or birds, don't help newbies (yes, like me) but they do expect a favorable response when jumping in with information.  

We don't know people on the forums, and only know them based on their online personality and the information they put out there. And if the information they put out there is not in an appropriate place, and only to make negative comments, how is that supportive or encouraging to new people.  When I know I'm dealing with an expert, I sit up and listen - but most people on forums we don't know, so who are the experts?  I consider Coopslave one, and even though she doesn't breed Barnevelders anymore, they still talk about her amazing lines across the pond and people are still working with the lines she created, the information she shared is still available and she's open with sharing that information.  I also consider Dan in that group, he is approachable, his information is helpful and I feel like I can drop him a note anytime with a question and I'm really proud to have his birds in my 'line' as they still possess those utility traits I so desire.  

It's when this feedback is neither constructive (not saying positive here, constructive - it doesn't have to be positive to be constructive) nor in the right place, I do tend to take offence because it makes me question the purpose - is it to provide information or are they trolling, baiting...what is the purpose? I don't actually know them from Jack. If they share and help people, put some good information out there about themselves and what they are doing, then I have a better idea where they are coming from.  Instead I don't know them from a hole in the wall other then the negative nellie who likes to say bad things, and only bad things, about other peoples birds so it does feel like being targeted.  Asking for a public critique is one thing, yes you hit the send button cringing with every fibre of your body - although I know for me I've had a pretty decent awareness of what the good and negative are already and have not been terribly surprised when the comments come - I know I've got lots of work to do.  But it just seems some criticize for the sake of criticizing.  Sometimes the most helpful feedback starts with "where are you starting from and what are your goals".  

Coopslave,  I think it was also you who said a while back to me that you have to start with what you have.  If we all had a chance to get our hands on 300 hatching eggs from really good birds and narrow it down to a handful, or buy SOP birds from a breeder who was willing to let them go, how amazing would that be?  I can't think of anyone one here who could even supply a buyer with that many hatching eggs in a year!   And we don't have access to some of the amazing lines across the border due to the border restrictions.  And I haven't had either option, so had to start with what I have.  I thought I had a chance to buy a 'retired' rooster from a really incredible welsummer breeder this spring, I was SO excited, (I haven't seen his birds, but hear they are outstanding), it wasn't going to be cheap but it would have helped propel me in the right direction.  Unfortunately he changed his mind.  So I'm back to working with what I have.  It's hard to get your hands on the 'good stuff', so for the rest of us we work with what we have. Wrong or right, if we don't work with what we have, then we don't work on it at all and go to something else.  

There was a comment "over there" about people not staying past five years. IMO constructive critiism is very valuable, unsolicited criticism, baiting, trolling and all those other things are not.  How do you know that people will leave, or are people shoveled so much crap that they feel forced to leave?  Why push them out the door before they even get started?  Maybe supporting those people for 5 years then will help them to stay.  What if just one out of 10 of those 5 year people would have stayed and maybe gone on to do great things, but found the politics and lack of support overwhelming and chose something else where they felt supported.  Almost everyone in the world wants to feel connected or to feel a part of something.  Supporting people with constructive criticism in the right place and the right time is helpful and encouraging.  Lambasting people for not having perfect birds, and not in the appropriate place, nor the appropriate time, what's the purpose?  Sometimes PM's or emails are more appropriate.  

I am proud to say I'm a newbie, and I'm here to stay.  I know I'm looking at a good 10 years before I start to approach real headway and the proper balance in some of my own goals in Barnevelders which will be my number one focus breed, and 20 years before I will consider myself any sort of an authority on them if I ever do. I know I have lots more to learn, and this will be lifelong learning.  I will be listening and learning from people who know, people who share, people who walk the walk.  I know I'm not going to hear everything I like.  But along the way, why not inspire and bring some other newbies along for the ride, why not share enthusiasm and encourage others to participate.  Even they only tag along for 5 years?  They will appreciate heritage birds more, will buy heritage eggs, maybe even buy meaty heritage meat birds instead of frankenbirds from the store...why kick them before they even get going?  What if that little bit of support and mentorship launches them to become one of the best breeders of their breed.  But what if that one negative and out of place comment was enough to break the camels back and push them over the edge to quitting?

All I'm saying is there is a place and a time for constructive feedback, there is never a time for destructive feedback, and if the time is out of place it may not be that constructive even if that was what was intended.  A judge at a show is providing constructive feedback, you've asked them to do that by placing the bird in the show. I don't believe in sugar coating, fluffing or poofing up info.  And if something isn't perfect, I don't mind hearing about it - in the right place. When I ask for a critque, I ask for a critique, if I post a photo of a bird in a 'show-off category', and someone doesn't like it - send me a PM, lets talk about it.  I'm happy with my bird at that moment, why rain on my parade?  You don't know if I intend to breed it, or if I'm posting it for my kid or just because I think it's fun.  I don't know your motivations, you don't know mine.  But a discussion where there is an exchange is good. And deliberately trying to stop a sale, and a sale where nothing was misrepresented? To me I don't see the purpose.

KathyS wrote:The feedback they provide is only discouraging if you allow it to be, and if you take it as a personal insult.

YES. THIS.

Everybody put on your big girl/boy undies, because no one else can MAKE you feel anything - only YOU can decide how you feel.

.

Thank you for the compliments, I am blushing.....

islandgirl99 wrote:Coopslave, I think it was also you who said a while back to me that you have to start with what you have.

I do believe this is true, but it is also being aware of what you do actually have and are starting with. The good, bad and ugly. The point should be you try to start with as much of the good as possible so the journey doesn't seem impossible. The only way to know how much good you start with is to really know and study your breed, if you are choosing that direction.
If you just want to breed mutts, or a landrace that suits you, all the power to you. That is what is so great about chickens, we can do what we like.
I am a huge, self proclaimed chicken snob but I have 2 breeding pens that are not SOP birds. I am breeding for my own amusement and to gain more knowledge and use some of the skills I already know. The difference is that they will not be sold on as heritage breeds. They are my own creations to meet my own personal needs and wants, if others enjoy them too, all the better.
I hatched around 100 PChant chicks this year. So far I have kept 3 cockerels and 6 possibly 7 pullets (I am on the fence on 1 but she will probably stay). Who knows how many of them will actually make it to the 2 year old breeding pen. I am already frowning at one of the cockerels. I have others growing, maybe one of them will surprise me.

I will agree with KathyS, sometimes the things we need to hear are not the things we like to hear. Especially when we are working hard and are passionate about things.

RatHiggins wrote:Piet is a man that knows what, five languages, so be aware that English is not his first tongue.

Yes, please remember this.

RatHiggins wrote:Piet is a good man trying to understand a difficult topic and he is no nonsense and very much why many of us love him and his contributions so much...If you look fat in that outfit, count on Piet to tell you, on a mega phone in the middle of the meeting in perfect English and without a shred of realization that the one being told they are looking fat is mortified and so going to hunt him down and box his ears for him. Piet simply has no harsh bones in his body, not that I have ever seen. He continued to post to the thread as he had no inkling of ill will and was trying his best to understand; he was looking for answers and not getting results. He is curious and interested in poultry and always willing to learn new things.

My perception as well.

RatHiggins wrote:There are times were I almost feel compelled but figure, "Nah...that's OK...I don't want to ruffle feathers today!"

Yep

I don't believe any malice was intended. Knowing when to say something and when not to is a tough skill. Not a skill I am very effective at. I know I can be abrupt and abrasive and I try very hard not to be but it seems to be my nature. I try to remember others may have the same issues I do.

"Why push them out the door before they even get started?"

It's about testing your backbone. The only thing that comes from coddling is apathy. Universities don't coddle, especially not in the first two years. They weed out those that don't have the backbone to do well in the chosen field. At least this was the case in the Biology program.

I saw the same thing with our poultry club. It was run by an old gal that had started the club and been running it since the 80s. She ran a good club with strong well attended work parties. When I first started, she tested me as she does all newbies. For me it was water off a duck's back, I liked her spunk and she reminded me of an old Grandma I admired. Over the years I observed many new members come, some with all the energy in the world. But they bruised easy and and didn't stick. Many wanted to make changes to the club before taking the time to understand the culture of the club. There is a good reason to expect people to "pay their dues".

Then a few years ago, the overly sensitive PC types finally got a chance to lead the club as they felt it should be run when the old gal decided it was time to step back. The soft approach has resulted in reduced membership and even more troubling, poorly attended work parties. This year the apathy is so bad that they have cancelled their shows. Yep, the hobby is really benefiting from the coddling.  




As for the comments regarding SOP birds, the comments reflect a profound lack of understanding of the SOP. Birds that have been bred to put food on the table have dominated the Island shows this year. A bronze turkey line has gone undefeated in the Tukey class, has won Reserve Landfowl on one occasion and Best Bird in show on another. This line was bred for efficient food production, not show and definately not newbie fanciers looking for plug and play entertainment. A black Ameraucana line (over a decade in development) that has been bred for the table (true dual purpose) took AOSB points at all three shows and was Champion Largefowl at two of the shows. A Pekin (also a table bird) was waterfowl Champion at all three shows, was show champion once and reserve show twice. A Khaki Campbell line being maintained purely for profitable food production was Reserve Waterfowl Champion twice and Reserve Show once. It takes more than a pretty bird to win here.

When I started, the champions were predominately bantams. I guess I could have taken the lazy slacker route and blamed the SOP for the discrimination, but instead I decided to be honest. The large breeds being shown were simply not of champion quality.

If someone has a meaty Chanteclair line that can't beat a skinny Chanteclair line in a sanctioned show, the problem isn't the standard, it is the quality of the meaty line. It is most likely not a true representative of the breed, and is in fact just a meaty bird being labelled Chanteclair. Each heritage breed has a distinct outline. With many of the utility breeds, there is functional importance to the outline, this I learned from my turkeys. I breed from the skeleton out because each breed has a unique skeleton profile. Combining the right shape with the breed's intended function requires a certain skeletal profile. Forcing breed characteristics onto the wrong skeletal profile can easily result in birds that lack balance, or even worse, health, production and/or reproductive problems.

If a person working with a breed such as the Chanteclair isn't bringing the breed closer to the standard with each generation, and thus making it more competitive at the shows, then the person really does not understand the breed as well as they would like to think. Each and every time I've improved the productivity of a breed, I've also improved it's showability.

Well said Omega!

Like Coopslave, I am just going to copy this here;

Certainly the knowledge and experience of seasoned breeders can be very useful, but the delivery must be well thought out.

Adapted from the joke that I think we've all seen;

TRY SAYING: Is that your best bird?
INSTEAD OF: You've got to be sh**ting me!

TRY SAYING: Of course, you can choose your breeding stock as you see fit.
INSTEAD OF: I don't f***ing care.

TRY SAYING: That's a nice bird.
INSTEAD OF: What the f***?

TRY SAYING: I'm not sure your breeding plan will work.
INSTEAD OF: BAH HA HA HA HA!

TRY SAYING: You might want to consult the Standard of Perfection.
INSTEAD OF: Pull your head out of your a**.

TRY SAYING: But you can ignore my advice, if you wish.
INSTEAD OF: Kiss my a**.

TRY SAYING: I think you need to do more research.
INSTEAD OF: You don't know what the f*** you're doing.

TRY SAYING: Breeding that line looks like a challenge.
INSTEAD OF: Kill every bird you own, burn your coop and start over.

an effective school is run by the teachers,

not the students.

There is a danger to be had in being not direct enough, though ... forgive me as I modify!

YOU SAY: Is that your best bird?
THEY HEAR: That's the best bird I've ever seen!

YOU SAY: Of course, you can choose your breeding stock as you see fit.
THEY HEAR: You are a genius at choosing breeding stock, and clearly you do not need advice.

YOU SAY: That's a nice bird.
THEY HEAR: You should definitely breed that bird and go into business selling eggs and chicks to newbies.

YOU SAY: I'm not sure your breeding plan will work.
THEY HEAR: You should breed MORE.

YOU SAY: You might want to consult the Standard of Perfection.
THEY HEAR: You should ask for the opinions of backyard poultry enthusiasts on an anonymous internet forum.

YOU SAY: But you can ignore my advice, if you wish.
THEY HEAR: You already know better than I do.

YOU SAY: I think you need to do more research.
THEY HEAR: You should ask for the opinions of backyard poultry enthusiasts on an anonymous internet forum.

YOU SAY: Breeding that line looks like a challenge.
THEY HEAR: You seem to be the person to take on the challenge. You should definitely breed that bird and go into business selling eggs and chicks to newbies.

I'm with fowler on this one. Mockery and meanness are not needed to get a point across. When I ASK for constructive criticism I'm all ears, but people don't have to be a bully about it. And have asked for critiques abd dont expect puffed up poofyness. If people take time to be nice, more people will stay.

Why does someone have to pass the backbone meter to be permitted and allowed into the poultry clique, why is it assumed that everyone will respond to hard### comments?

I deal with 9 staff in a work day, and 2000 or more clients in a day. If I took the hard### backbone approach to anything I do in my work day, I'd be fired in an instant. Why would I take this same hard### approach in something where the fate of what we do in the long run is affected by the involvement of others?. Why drive them away because in your opinion they don't have backbone?

I did three years of pre med in university, and it was commitment, planning and organizing that got people through. My classmates were not mocked, and some were pretty meek and mild. Could do pre-med but probably wouldn't have the desire to stay in a place where they were subject to mockery and destructive criticism.

I really don't get this beat people down and it's ok attitude in the poultry world. Why not build people up?

islandgal99 wrote:I really don't get this beat people down and it's ok attitude in the poultry world.

I have never noticed this attitude in the poultry world. No one has ever been nasty to me about my birds nor been too harsh with their criticism. I only wish there were more people with poultry expertise willing to comment, compare and criticize my birds. Unfortunately they seem very hesitant to share their thoughts. I wonder why...

The first time I proudly showed some Houdans and Cornish to Rico he said, "Your Houdan is duckfooted and should not be bred. The two Cornish are just ok but the third is a cross and should be excluded from your breeding program." It was a shock but it was the truth. I did not feel beaten down in the least. Disappointed, yes, but I am both tough and determined and marshaled my resources to make improvements. I feel that when you receive criticism by a knowledgeable person you are receiving a gift. How you take and use that gift is up to you.

islandgal99 wrote:I really don't get this beat people down and it's ok attitude in the poultry world. Why not build people up?

Personally, I see this "build people up" and "foster self esteem" thing to be a major problem in society. It's lead to the current generation of completely useless teens and young adults. Hey, who cares if they have no employable skills - they have GREAT self esteem! Let's not give them a ZERO when they fail to turn in their homework for no good reason, let's give them unlimited chances to make it up instead! Let's not FAIL them - we'll just pass them along and handle them with kid gloves so we don't hurt their precious self-esteem! We can't FIRE anyone because they come to work drunk and/or high - let's pay to put them through drug and alcohol counselling instead, so they can learn that their poor choices have no consequences!

It's crap, in my opinion. The fear of failure is motivation to succeed. Success builds self esteem. Success, and self esteem, has to be EARNED.

Schipperkesue wrote:I have never noticed this attitude in the poultry world.

Me, either. Chicken people are pretty awesome - with a few exceptions, of course. However, I appreciate blatant honesty and straight talk. I have no patience for political correctness and BS.

It's all in the delivery, and people who say it's not were the people that bullied others in school.  I take offense to the statement that those who are weeded (or weed themselves) out of school are those without backbone because I have backbone.

You can build people up while being critical.  For example, to a person who sleeps around when drunk too much: "Listen you drunk floozy, stop humping everything you see."  They are going to get up in arms, shut down and ignore you, go get drunk and do the nasty with every person that'll sleep with them.  If you say "Hello friend, I think we should talk about something, and just hear me out.  I think you have a problem, and I'm not sure if you realize how you are when you get drunk and what it might be doing to your life.  I'd hate to see ______________ or ______________ happen to you because I think you're a great person."

Now, if that person doesn't take advice and acts like an idiot, then you can move on from that delivery and call them a floozy because, well, they'll take it the same way.  However you're far less likely to have someone shut down, become unresponsive and discouraged, resulting in a spiral downwards.

People who don't get encouragement and constructive criticism will not excel.  I agree, children need to be told 'no', people must understand that no, this or that is NOT within their capabilities, but they need to be told why so that the principle is clear, rather than some vicious attack.  I was bullied my entire school life and I can tell you, to this day I have no idea what I did to attract the attention.  If someone had said: "You're a jerk because your Mom gets beat on by her boyfriends," then I could have made the correlation that because my Mom was considered substandard by those in her life that I would be too.  Instead, I'm still dumbfounded at the idiocy and clueless as to why I have deep rooted issues that I can't flush out.

The problem with this world isn't people being pansied, it's people not being told WHY and being attacked.  This world is violent, vicious, ruthless, and every man for themselves, and THAT's the issue.  No one has the TIME to take TIME and explain why, they just beat someone down to a level they feel is significantly lower than them and stand on the remains like some member of Royalty who controls its subjects, loyal or otherwise.