Help needed with management....

Greetings! OK fellow birders...please advise. What is the best routine and preventative management techniques for overall health of your chickens? I understand they can get mites...what about worms? What to do, what to do...?

Overall health is a big picture.

Housing is part of the big picture. In my experience, crowded birds become nasty birds. Mixing too many breeds that are too diverse in their temperaments is a mistake, some are too meek and get picked on by the bullies. Too many roosters or sexually aggressive roosters can make life miserable for your hens. THen the hens stay indoors and don't get the feed they need. Then lack of feed knocks their laying down and you think your hens are no good when in fact, you need to get rid of your obnoxious rooster.

To truly know the health of your flock the best thing to do (in my opinion) is spend a lot of time observing them so you know how they look/act when they are well. That way you'll know when something is 'off'. Even learning the noises they make when they are happy versus when they feel threatened can help alert you to predators. Paying attention to the nuances in the social order and behaviour in your flock will be the FIRST line of defense when it comes to noticing problems.

As for worming...it is my opinion that birds will always have worms, what you should aim to do is keep the worms to a manageable level so they do not compromise the birds. There are different ways to achieve this and it depends on whether or not you are all natural or fine using chemicals...lots of people here will offer their experiences. But I think the biggest issue with a happy, healthy hen house is knowing when you have the right amount of birds and when you've crossed over into too many birds. Balance in all things.

Well hello there!! Firstly, thank you for taking the time to respond to my question! Makes it so nice to know that there are people out there willing to assist! I'm absolutely with you on overcrowding....my coops aren't big and therefore I don't keep that many chickens. Totally get that. I've seen picked on chickens from overcrowding and it can make anyone never want chickens!! Including my nieces who decided they actually wanted chickens after seeing my healthy, happy birds! One question I do have is, how often do you dust for mites? Is this something that is routinely done, even if there are no symptoms?

Oh and I'm not against using chemicals to treat.

I think it was Uno who talked about a few drops of Ivermec from an eye dropper under wings and on back of neck to get rid of mites and worms all at once, done 3 times? about a week apart? Please confirm, Uno. This is what I have been trying this spring. So far, so good.

Once at the auction I overheard a conversation between 2 people buying pigeons. The one told the other he puts a drop of Ivermec under each wing when he brings them home

I like to dust with that carbaryl? powder from Dominion Labs, in between other treatments (like Eprinex or Frontline) especially for hens with chicks as they are sitting ducks for mites I find!
I also dust the cats and dogs with that powder every month or so in the summer.
It is nasty to breathe in so a mask is recommended and rubber gloves to work the powder in to their feathers.
I think with any pest product it is good to change it up every so often to prevent resistance.
Good luck with your chicken keeping, I agree understocking your pens makes SO much difference!
More grass and less mess = happy birds and owner

Back when the kid was little I used to get her to hold the birds while I dusted them. When I realized what toxins I was exposing not just myself to, but her as well (!), I banished those powders from my hen house, forever. Besides, they were only ever a very temporary cure and miserable to deal with.

Eprinex (for dairy cattle and domestic deer) is what I use on my birds. Just like Sucellus says, I use an eye dropper and give each bird a squirt on the back of the neck. On the skin. Part the feathers. It is absorbed through the skin so you want it to make contact with their hide. You also want it in a spot the bird can't 'groom' off. Since a bird can get its own head under its wing, that is not where I'd put it. I go for high on the back of the neck.

Eprinex has the advantage (or Ivomec if you choose that product, similar, different brand names) of getting rid of internal worms as well as external creepers. It's a two fer. If you are facing a heavy infestation of lice/mites, you may need to repeat dose over a period of time. Why? Because lice lay eggs. The Eprinex will kill the adults, but will not kill the eggs. When those eggs hatch, they begin to suck blood and get busy laying even MORE eggs! Your goal is to keep your chicken's system toxic enough for long enough to kill the waves of hatchling lice BEFORE they lay more eggs. To accomplish this you dose your bird every 2-3 weeks for 3 times. This keeps their toxicity level high enough to kill emerging beasties.

Once you have battled your way through this...hang a NO PEST strip in your chicken house. This keeps the creepy crawlers AWAY. First, beat them back with Eprinex then bar the door with a No Pest strip. This approach has worked for me amazingly well.

Now that I know there are no skin creepers on my birds, I dose them once a year with piperazine for internal crawlers. This does not keep them 100% worm free, but worm free enough that they are not compromised. I use the piperazine because it goes in the water and does not require that I handle the birds...for me it's easier. But if I thought worms or crawlers were out of hand...I'd bring out the BIG guns, the Eprinex.

I never used to worm my mea tbirds, but since losing some to gut blowout due to a MASSIVE worm load, I now worm them about half way through their life (5-6 weeks). I use piperazine for this too.

When I am giving the birds piperazine, I DO NOT throw away the eggs. Piperazine is used to worm humans, thus it makes no sense (to me) to toss eggs. Eprinex was designed so that dairymen do NOT have to throw away milk of treated cows, and domestic deer can be slaughtered and eaten without a withdrawal time. In light of this, I have NOT thrown out eggs while my birds were being treated with Eprinex. BUT...I also did NOT sell any eggs to my egg customers during that time. I feel the food choices I make for myself are my business, but others might not want to eat eggs from treated birds, so I just don't allow that situation to happen. This decision is one you have to make for yourself.

Good point Uno about the iprenex(sp?)..and i will do some research....
i looked up ivermectin when we had a nasty bout of lice and mites...and found online that the recommended withdrawal time was 2-3 weeks. A vet recommended 3 weeks, so i threw out eggs for 3 wks! It would be good if there was something else effective without the withdrawal period.
We almost lost one of our dogs to ivermectin and related products..so i wasn't about to eat or sell any of the eggs laid during that time
thanks for the post

Bigrock, I have been wondering if the Ivermec could be used on the dogs. Please tell the story of what happened to your dog.

Big Rock, understand that while Eprinex was developed for the dairy industry, to NOT create wasted milk and the deer meat industry, as safe in slaughtered deer, Eprinex has NEVER been tested on chickens and my assumptions about egg safety are just that...assumptions.

There is NO data saying eggs are safe to eat. There is no data saying eggs are NOT safe to eat. There in no data, period.

I have been too lazy to research how Eprinex is metabolized in an animal and how much of it may or may not make its way into the egg production parts of a chicken. By the time it hits an egg, it may be inert. Or not. Who knows?

I see it this way: we all know the body views alcohol as a poison and the symptoms of drunkenness are in fact symptoms of poisoning. We know this. We drink anyway. So if I have glass or two of wine or cider, knowing that I am introducing poison into my body, am I really going to get jiggy over some bug juice I squirted on my chicken that might be in the egg, the egg I have just COOKED? Is cooked Eprinex still a threat? No, I don't sweat this considering it very well may be in my milk supply. However Ivo is another matter when it come to human consumption and its effects are known in beef and horses and thus its withdrawal times should be respected.

This information has been great, simply great. I am most certainly going to put it to good use. THANKS peeps!

SucellusFarms wrote:Bigrock, I have been wondering if the Ivermec could be used on the dogs.  Please tell the story of what happened to your dog.

I don't know what happened to Bigrock's dog but Ivomec can be used on dogs, have seem it used for mange that will not respond to other treatments BUT DO NOT USE ON COLLIES (or collie crosses)! Collies can have a sensitivity (apparently a gene mutation) that can cause them to die! I found this good article about collies and ivomec below.

http://www.awca.net/drug.htm

bigrock wrote:
We almost lost one of our dogs to ivermectin and related products..so i wasn't about to eat or sell any of the eggs laid during that time
thanks for the post

There's something about this product and border collies - it should NOT be used on them!! Lethal, as I'm assuming you discovered and then researched heavily??  Can you tell us what you found when you almost lost your dog?

ETA - sorry for the hijack. Bigrock, can you start a new thread? Could save someone else's dog!

started new post-sorry to hijack...

This is what I'm using for mights. You can get it at your hardware or Canadian Tire stores.


Permethrin

Permethrin, a pyrethroid insecticide, is a chlorinated, synthetic form of pyrethrum, an insecticide derived from chrysanthemum flowers. (Permethrin is longer acting than pyrethrum.) It has multiple uses, including head lice and scabies treatments, insect repellents, household insect foggers and sprays, tick and flea sprays for yards and pets, termite treatments, agricultural and livestock products, mosquito abatement, forestry and treatment of timber.

5.7% EC Spray -- Dilute 7 tsp/gal or 1 qt/25 gal for .05% solution
-- Dilute 4 1/2 Tbs per gallon for .1% solution

10% EC Spray -- Dilute 4 tsp/gal or 1 qt/50 gal for .05% solution
-- Dilute 2.5 Tbs/gal or 1 qt/25 gal for .1% solution

11% EC Spray -- Dilute 3.5 tsp/gal or 1 pt/25 gal for .05% solution
-- Dilute 7 tsp/gal or 1 qt/25 gal for .1% solution

25% WP -- 1.5 tsp/gal or 1 pt/30 gal for .05% solution
-- 1 Tbs/gal or 1 pt/15 gal for .1% solution

The .1% solution is applied to ceilings, walls, and suspended objects using a pressurized or power sprayer. This residual spray may remain effective for several weeks unless removed by washing or rain.

The .05% solution can be applied directly to the birds at the rate of 1 gallon per 75 adult chickens. The solution applied to the birds is effective for mites only. Pay particular attention to the vent area when spraying to insure complete spray penetration and coverage.

Concentrated long lasting livestock and premise spray that provides quick knockdown and effective broad spectrum control. Can be used on dairy and beef cattle, horses, sheep, goats, swine, and poultry. Use outdoors and in nonfood areas of dairies, cattles barns, horse barns, swine houses, and kennels. Kills horn flies, house flies, fleas, ticks, poultry lice, fowl mites, and more. Residual activity up to 28 days. Quart.

http://www.healthlinkbc.ca/kb/content/drugdetail/hw171407.html

Here is a video on Permethrin.
http://www.rei.com/rei/videos/Ooyala.jsp?embedCode=NzdjdvNDqwjIvnJI8rxCG0iiZTdTdvVo&autoplay=1#ooid=NzdjdvNDqwjIvnJI8rxCG0iiZTdTdvVo

http://www.amazon.ca/Gordon-9291082-Permethrin-10-Premise-Spray/dp/B000ZNWANM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350265262&sr=8-1

Permethrin is highly toxic to both freshwater and estuarine aquatic organisms.
Signs of toxicity
Exposure to even small quantities of permethrin can cause severe and fatal poisoning in cats. Common clinical signs of toxicity include: muscle tremors, twitching, seizures (see the video clip, right), salivation, incoordination, fever and dilated pupils. After exposure to permethrin, signs of toxicity usually develop within a few hours but in some cases can take one to two days to become apparent. Diagnosis is made based on a known exposure to permethrin and clinical signs of poisoning.

How do cats become exposed to permethrin?
Sadly, cats are usually exposed to permethrin when pet owners inadvertently apply permethrin-containing flea spot-on products, which are made for dogs, to cats. These products usually come in a small pipette and the liquid is applied onto the skin on the back of the neck. The liquid is then absorbed through the skin and into the body.

http://www.fabcats.org/owners/poisons/pemethrin/article.html

As Uno said "No Pest Insecticide Strip"
http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/2/OutdoorLiving/MosquitoPestControl/InsectControl/PRDOVR~0593601P/Ortho+Home+Defense+Max+No+Pest+Insecticide+Strip.jsp?locale=en

Permethrin-based formula, look for the concentrated bottle at your local garden center or Canadian Tire.
http://www.canadiantire.ca/browse/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524443304693&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=1408474396673076&bmUID=1372730983707

Also deadly to bees.

DecourseyD,

There are three things I keep on hand at all times: 1. electrolytes 2. antibiotics 3. coccidiosis medication.

I like to keep electrolytes on hand to mix in water during any time of extra stress. Also, I keep a good general antibiotic on hand as well as medication for coccidiosis. Coccidiosis is a parasite that is in the soil and can be easily picked up when birds are on the ground. Most generally older birds have built up a resistance to cocci but the younger ones can bleed quite badly from the parasite breaking loose from the intestine. Some can bleed to death. Though I feed medicated feed to my young chicks to help prevent cocci, I often see signs of it (bloody poop) after they chicks start going outside - especially during a wet, rainy spell. At the first sign of bloody poop, I put the cocci med in the drinking water. These three meds/additives can be purchased through your local feed store.