Poisoned or...?

Tank is acting... off, and judging the severity is a little difficult, so I'll tell you why.

About a week ago, Bull had 2 days where his back end seemed 'drunk'. His one back leg seemed to wobble and shake a bit, and sometimes he'd rest it with his toes curled under. He's an older dog, he was running and playing, just a little drunken, and he has a tendency to get himself into spaces that usually end up with a limp. It was better the day after we noticed it and gone the day after that. No problem.

Bear, around the same time, decided to refuse to eat. He's in a lanky, slender stage, but not eating for 2 days and running and bouncing doesn't make keeping weight on easy. So I thought, maybe, from getting into that dead deer, he just doesn't want to eat kibble. Found a moose steak in the freezer, thawed it, cut it up and he ate it. The next day, he ate kibble as long as it had egg in it and has been eating since.

Yesterday, Tank only ate a few bites before walking away, and I just thought he'd gotten into something and filled himself up. He's also long and lanky right now, so any weight drop is noticeable, and fast. Yesterday, he seemed slow and tired. Then he refused food. And refused food with egg. This morning, his eyes are a little runny, he's still lethargic and he's drooling a bit. His gums are pink, his breathing is fine, he wags his tail and will come to you, but he does so slowly and without any umph. He drank a couple slurps of water but then stared at it for a while instead of drinking. He refused fresh goat milk last night.

He does not have diarrhea, is not vomitting, is not dehydrated or bloated, no blood in stool; these puppies had their shots (which I -hated- doing). The events, individually, seem meh at best, but putting them together, they seem odd. I'm wondering if a farmer has a poisoned carcass out to bait the coyotes since they're so bad this year, and that the puppies got into it?

What do you think?

Are you able to confine them and keep them home incase their is poison somewhere?

Poisoning 'usually' looks more extreme than what you describe, but then again it depends on the amount and kind of poison.

It might be as simple as loss of some teeth and arrival of new, which in human babies, puts them off, makes them feverish and miserable. Hurting teeth might explain avoidance of crunchy kibbles.

But if I saw in normally active pups the lethargy you describe, I would also be alarmed, try and keep them where you can see them and know what they might be eating. Hope it's just a phase.

Thanks Uno. We left Tank out today to roam the house instead of being down with the others. I suspect I'll come home to an accident or two, but then I'll be able to see if there's any change in his bowl movements and urine as well, and I can clean up whatever mess he makes anyway. We left him access to food and water this way as well, so he can eat if and when and however much he likes if he gets the gumption.

I considered bringing him to work today, but since we're a dog friendly work environment, I felt it best not to, in case it was parvo, which I'm not certain it is.

Lethargy, lack of weight gain and drooling are listed on the 'watch and wait' lists I've found online. I didn't think of teething either, they're 5 months and are losing the last of the baby teeth at this point, so that's probably a good point.

Will update when I can.

There are some poisons out there that do affect the central nervous system in animals , in large doses it will kill them as it shuts their body down. Possibly the dogs ate a gopher that was poisoned, this would cause them to be ill but not to die.
There are also organophosphates that farmers use on fields for weed control that can make animals have some of these symptoms.
We always confine our dogs for a couple days after the farmers around us spray for weeds.

It is also gopher season and many farmers are poisoning, we just caught the hutterite boys yesterday poisoning a field north of our farm right along our fence line, and they were using strychnine which is very deadly to our animals, and they were just dropping it outside the holes. Hubby made them come back and push it all down the holes later that night...Needless to say I was extremely upset by their actions of not caring.

Thank you Hidden;

I'll keep an eye on him. Unfortunately, if its poison or parvo, the best you can do is keep them hydrated and work them through it, is my understanding. I guess they'd put them on IV's at a vet, which we are considering, depending how it goes.

Lola, who has never left the yard, got spayed. About a week after being spayed, she started wandering. Then started taking the puppies out. We've had a lot of deer die off this year, so they've been carcass rummaging. We tied Lola up while the puppies are out which, until this week, stopped them from wandering. Of course, this week, farmers got in the fields so this makes sense too.

We'll just continue with what we are doing now -- when they're out, so are we, keeping them around and in check. I'll pick up some stuff to give them to fight off any secondary infection and flush their systems.

Thanks for the input everyone!

I was thinking gopher poison to Hidden. It should not be Parvo if they have been vaccinated.

I hope he pulls through.

What do they poison the gophers with?

It almost sounds like potential antifreeze injestion. Upon injestion they are ataxic ( drunk) then they get over it. A few days later the kidney failure sets in. I would get him checked and blood work done ASAP.

I'm also confused which dog is sick?

Gophers are done with stric 9, right?

I use the word 'drunk' because it was almost like a limp, but he'd lean the one side on the back leg when standing, kind of like a drunk person weaves. Bull doesn't wander, and there isn't antifreeze around where we're at right now. It's not Bull I'm worried about anywho, and he was the only one with that symptom, which is now gone and has been for almost a week.

Tank is the one that's sick, rather, the one that's concerning me right now, I was just listing the other 2 because it's coincidental, but put together it may not be such a coincidence.

I agree if they are vaccinated very unlikely it is parvo, parvo presents with severe vomiting and diarrhea and you said he doesn't have any of those signs.
We never used Strychnine on our gophers we used a product that was a two feeding product so that it wasn't so dangerous to our livestock and less likely to kill a secondary host if they did pick up a dead gopher, I cant remember what it was called but it was a nerve blocker like I described before. MOST farmers use the strychnine though because they do not required two feedings to kill them. Strychnine causes them to bleed out so pale gums, bloody stool, etc.

As of this morning he still had pink gums, so that's a good sign. How he is when we get home today determines where we go with how its treated. On the 'emergency care required' lists I found online, lethargy, drooling and loss of appetite is a 24-48 hour watch period.

How is his capillary refill time Sweetend? It is often a better gauge than just looking at the colour of the gums. Press your finger against his gum above his teeth. Hold for a few seconds and then let go. Count how long it takes to turn pink again. It should be 2-3 seconds or less. If not he is dealing with dehydration and/or circulatory issues. Dehydration can be caused by the symptoms you are seeing and also makes me think poisoning. Be very careful with it. Often if treated early, it can be reversible but if left, can kill them or cause permanent damage. Good luck. Keep us posted.

Sweetened, Please let us know how he is doing.
Thanks

I hope your problems are found out and the dog is well. This is for anyone that cares to listen. Even if dogs are vaccinated for parvo, they can still contract it. This is known fact, just like vaccines for marek's disease in chickens. If you suspect that parvo is the culprit the sooner you can force colloidal silver water down the animal's throat the better. I am not kidding, some think this is hokey pokey, but silver is known to kill all kinds of bacteria, stuff like that. We had a pitbull puppy that contracted parvo, bloody diahorrea, vomitting, loss of weight so fast. We gave him doses of colloidal silver water with a syringe (without a needle), forcing the silver water down his throat. I do not kid. Within a few hours the symptoms began to disappear and the dog recovered and was eating well in a couple of days. We all know that generally when parvo comes about, it is a sure-fired death warrant. Sometimes veterinary interjection can cure, but it is very, very costly and time to heal. Young puppies, old dogs, compromised immune system because of age. I do not profess that this will 100% cure every parvo case, but I surely know this dog of 11 years old now has lived to tell that tale. There are so many alternative medical helpers, we just need to learn and listen. Sweetened, my wishes and hopes for a recovery of what ever is ailing, and with that, find something to make you smile, look to your partner and your critters, CynthiaM.

Thanks guys. Miss Cynthia, this is why I was pissed about getting their shots done, but we thought they would find homes easier if they had them.

His symptoms are pretty much the same. Susan, his Capillary refill time is about 3.5 seconds, consistently between the 3 and 4 second mark. He is still lethargic and slow. He wants to be with you and move around, but tires easily. He also wants water, but sniffs it and will not drink. I bathed him tonight using some dawn. I figured if he had something on him, I could wash it off, maybe. I also thought vigorous scrubs would help his blood flow.

His heart is steady, beating like the other puppies, his breathing isn't laboured. He urinated earlier, but hasn't taken a bowl movement. He ate a little bit, but only a couple bites. He has not vomitted. If it's poison, we don't know what kind and don't have anything he may or may not have gotten into to test. If its parvo, distemper (both of which he's vaccinated against) or the like, all the vet can give him is pallative care and keep him hydrated, which I can do as well. They'll give him anti-biotics for a viral infection to treat a secondary infection, I have oregano oil for that.

Here are his current symptoms:

Lethargic
Lack of appetite (like Bear had)
No bowl movement (hasn't eaten much in 2.5 days now)
Weight loss (like Bear had)
Runny eyes
Slight, occasional cough (not dry, almost like he's trying to hork something up)
His back legs are weak and he is leaning (like Bull did). He has strength though, he was not interested in the bath.
Thick, stringy drool

I have given him AVJ to stimulate his digestive system and try to push this through. I am drenching him with a mixture of water (hydration), oregano oil (antibiotic and vitamins), eggs (hydration, vitamins, minerals, nutrients) and apple juice (hydration, vitamins, nutrients, sugars).

I'm going to go to bed with him curled up to me. At this point, we can just keep him hydrated and make a decision if need be.

check for ticks...this could also be a tick..had a dog like that. Found a tick and removed it and it very soon was back to normal. check between their pads, backbones, shoulders etc

This is so sad. I hope he pulls through. I don't know if it's helpful, but charcoal helps absorb some poisons. Not sure which though and maybe you have to get it in the dog very soon.

I keep a bottle of activated charcoal pills in the house. When Tums will no longer help Hub's terrible heartburn, activated charcoal does. It's a last gasp attempt and probably too late, but if you live in an area where people commonly place poison for rodents, a bottle of activated charcoal might buy you some time in a pinch.

Sleep tight with the pup. Fingers crossed.

Unfortunately uno charcoal would be too late as they need it within 6 hours of injestion. Also a large dog like that would need several bottles of those tablets to equal what we would give of the liquid stuff in hospital.
Sweetened oral rehydration in a large dog will be difficult as he would need 3 to 4 liters daily to correct his dehydration.

This if difficult for me because I see this all the time working in emergency veterinary medicine for last 8 years. You are guessing and not treating anything specific with out a proper diagnosis are potentially decreasing his chances of having a positive outcome. I know you have issues with human medicine but this creature can't make his own decisions on if he needs veterinary care or not.

Sorry of this steps on toes

bigrock, it's funny you should mention that as that was my first instinct. I rememeber hearing, years ago, about rocky mountain tick disease that shuts dogs and cats down from their back toes all the way up their neck. If you could just find the tick and pull it out, head and all, the symptoms reversed, but if it progressed to the heart and lungs the damage was irreversible. While bathing him, I did find a tick I had not found before and removed it carefully. It really couldnt have been more than a day old though due to size, but every little bit, right?

fuzzylittlefriend wrote:Unfortunately uno charcoal would be too late as they need it within 6 hours of injestion. Also a large dog like that would need several bottles of those tablets to equal what we would give of the liquid stuff in hospital.
Sweetened oral rehydration in a large dog will be difficult as he would need 3 to 4 liters daily to correct his dehydration.

This if difficult for me because I see this all the time working in emergency veterinary medicine for last 8 years. You are guessing and not treating anything specific with out a proper diagnosis are potentially decreasing his chances of having a positive outcome. I know you have issues with human medicine but this creature can't make his own decisions on if he needs veterinary care or not.

Sorry of this steps on toes

Fuzzy, I knew you'd answer this post, and I knew what would come with it when you did. You're a very smart individual who's experienced.

However, respectfully, there are 3 undaunted, unregulated cash cows in Canada, maybe the world, and those are taxes, death, and veterinarians. There are also 3 types of pet owners, those who don't care, if it dies, it dies, those who are willing to put an animal through every single treatment and 2nd mortgaging series of medications, and then there are those like me, who research and treat as best they can. No he can't make is own decisions, thats why, like a child, its my decision to make for him.

Forgive me, but the vets would also be guessing and treating without knowing that's up. We don't know what he would have been poisoned with, if its parvo or distemper (which he's vaccinated against, and that would absolutely prove my point with vaccines if he had either), they'll guess at the secondary infection and load him up on anti-biotics because you cannot treat a virus. In addition, I fail to see how taking a dog, who's somewhat stressed because he's ill, in a car when he's never left the farm, to a place he's never been, filled with the smell of death and panic and fear and strange animals he's never met, will assist him in his healing. If he becomes dehydrated (which I've done very well with so far), he will go to the vet for IV purposes until I can get the training to give IV's and drips myself.

Again, respectfully, I knew I'd be judged for the decision to treat at home, it was part of the risk I took by posting here. That said, I'm better than those who would not treat at all, and I treat using research I've done and my understanding of nutrition and natural treatments.



That said, Tank made it through the night. Around 1:30 he got restless so I put him in the living room. This morning, he's brought up some water, but it just looks like water, not the egg and whatnot that was pushed down his throat. If you pick him up, you can hear his stomach slosh. His capillary refill time has improved, and he had enough strength this morning to pull himself onto the couch, which he didn't last night. His drooling has slowed a bit and so has the weeping in his eyes. He seems a little more alert, but still very sluggish and lethargic. Slow progress is slow. Take the good with the bad.

Sweetened, no one is judging you for the route you chose to take, but when you post publicly you can expect all kinds of answers and suggestions. You asked and Fuzzy is sharing her knowledge. Vets do have the benefit of an education in this area and a good vet who uses their training well is worth their weight in gold and as rare as hens teeth. A simple blood test, xray or physiical exam could pinpoint your problem immediately.

That said, here is my two cents. I have never experienced poisoning in dogs so I have not responded until now, but upon reading your last couple posts, especially the symptoms, gastric torsion leaps to mind.

Keep in mind that although your other dogs have been sick this does not necessarily mean it has been from the same thing.

Now, I have only been raising dogs for 23 years, and am limited in my experience. If you want to talk to a very experienced dog person who has pretty much seen it all and done it all, and will be able to give you some suggestions that do not involve veterinary care, I would contact Arcticsun.

sorry, I guess I'm defensive and took it the wrong way.

thanks for your suggestion, I will look that up.

He is drinking water on his own as of 20 minutes ago and had a loooooong pee. he also walked around the yard with us this morning, sniffing and greeting his mom and bull

Oh glory days, sounds like pooch is on the mend, that is wonderful to hear. Something is working right. I am sure improvements will bound, as he has come a long ways since yesterday. Damn. Wonder what on earth it was. You will probably never know. Have an awesome day, CynthiaM.

Sick pets are tough and not knowing why is the worst. I hope Tank continues to improve and is back to his normal self soon...

Let's hope it is something simple, like that tick you found.