Gone to the Dogs...Puppy Dogs!!

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you have gotta be kidding -- you kept those kind of records, wow. Ya, must be the accountant in you, accounting for everything, good. What a ride you were on for years and years. I would love to hear responses to what you have asked, yes, you how helps everyone, now needs a little payback for surely. Wait, the day is yet young, there will be lots of answers to your query I am sure. Beautiful days, CynthiaM.

Great Post Tara
It is a subject That I really dont want to post much on as I can get pretty Heated on the Subject LOL
I raise and show Dogs and have for over 40 years.
As for what a Person should as for a Pup of their breeding is a real touchy subject. And I dont deal well with some people LOL
I will not say what you should ask for them as it would be pretty high.
Just like I have 2 Chihuahua pups here right now they are 3 wks old Champion Sired and the dam is pointed that is imported from the states if I was to offer them for sale for what they are worth I get all kinds of people contacting me saying am I crazy they can buy a Chihuahua for a 1/4 of that and my responce is go ahead and buy it then but tell me what guarantees come with it and what kind of Registration papers come with it
It will be interesting to see what people say and I will post more later
oh and by the way one of my chi pups is going to New Hampshire to a show Kennel in the states

Not to take away from what has been essentially a labour of love (and money)for you Tara, (you love your dogs and that is awesome to see!) but I really dont think we can charge a cost for puppies or any other stock to cover what we put into them when we invest that kind of time and money

I know for sure when I sell my pullets at $10 each I am NOT covering my costs, but it is just my way of being able to raise lots of birds to select from for my own personal satisfaction of building and improving my flock each year

Tara, you forgot to factor in the enjoyment factor.

Puppy breath on your face. Puppy noises in your ear as you cuddle them. Being at the bottom of a puppy pile as they play themselves out and look for a place to crash!

Hours and hours of wasted time spending with them as they grow and change so fast. The facination of how quick they learn the things they need to and even the simple rules I have like, no feet in the food dish.

We only breed a litter when we want a pup of a particular line for ourselves. Often our dogs are not purebreds, but good dogs that have had a work life and will breed useful pups. I supose because of that our costs are not the same as the fancy purebreds but I can tell you the time spent planning the breedings and caring for the pups is the same.

As much as I love them, I am happy to see them find new homes at 8 weeks or so. They are a lot of work and when there is a big litter, they start to get tiring when they are bigger.

Interesting post about your puppy journey. We have had litters for 2 years now and I said to hubby last night, no puppies next year!!!!

I'm not a breeder, so perhapse my response is of limited value. I am, however a buyer. And the answer to me, really depends on why you planned such a litter. If it was strictly for profet, your wonderfull records make the asking price pretty clear.

I'm not terribly familiar with ACD (I just call them Heelers so I'm not aware how prevalent hearing, eye and hip issues are in the breed. I know German Shepherds have a terrible time with hip displaysia, so if indeed Heelers have the same issues, yes, I would pay for the testing on my pup. If its not terribly prevalent, personally I wouldnt bother, unless there was a suspected issue. Were the pups "marketed" for show, pet or working homes?

I think the final asking price depends a lot on what kind of home your aiming for. A show home, with a committed exhibitor might be willing to pay $3000 a pup, but that seems high to me for an unproven dog. I'd go about... $1700? Pet homes are likely going to be considerably less, though there are occasional enthusiasts out there with the money to pay $1600 for a pup. Average pet home would be in the $500-$1000 range at my best guess. Working home, given that they have some herding titles you could probably ask around $700 for them. Reason I peg working homes lower is because the dogs value in its working home is based largely on ability. Sure they have future potential, but a working home would pay a lot more for a "broke" dog.

It also depends on how long you want to hold onto the pups. If your willing to wait, and possibly deal with the headache of export, you may be able to find buyers willing to pay the $3000, but you may incure more expenses depending on how long you have to look to find those buyers.

I paid $450 for a eight week old Kelpie pup. Parents both working on the home ranch, no titles, no papers, supposedly imported from Australia (may have very well been, I just cant verify). Gin was de-wormed just before I got her, and thats it. No health garuntee, no vet check. Colour can also affect price, her litter mates who were of rarer colouring were $100 more. I had never bought a dog before (we've always had "free" mutt dogs from local farmers). I was willing to pay (what to me is a lot of money!) for her because
1. Kelpies are rare in Canada, the likelyhood of me finding a purebred for adoption is pretty much zero.
2. Location: Driving four hours to pick her up beats paying to have a pup flown in from Australia!
3.Despite only having pictures to go on, I liked the look of her sire and dam. Both looked conformationally correct, and seemed to have good, bidable personalities. Gin is mostly a pet, so I wasn't too concerned with a strong working instinct.

So there ya go. My 2 cents

the legit breeders (people carefully breeding for a purpose, not for making BINGO money or too lazy to get a job) have a saying...
If you are doing it right... you are not making a profit.
LOL!

Arcticsun wrote:the legit breeders (people carefully breeding for a purpose, not for making BINGO money or too lazy to get a job) have a saying...
If you are doing it right... you are not making a profit.
LOL!

So true Arctic

What Gets me the worse is some of these breeders (cough) that want outstanding prices for their Dogs
My Chihuahua pups Champion sired I ask 1500.00 and up for and that is to a show home and to a real show home I have gone lower or even traded or given
on a spay Nueter I sell lower and once the proof from the vet is given to me I even do a rebate on some
Oh well I dont breed very much and out of the 2 pups I have the boy is already sold and the female if she stays will be shown and run around the living room like the rest

Its like the old saying I became a Millionaire Raising Horses
SOme one ask how they did that and they say
Because out of the 2 Million I started with I still have a Million Left

Arcticsun wrote:the legit breeders (people carefully breeding for a purpose, not for making BINGO money or too lazy to get a job) have a saying...
If you are doing it right... you are not making a profit.
LOL!

Exactly I have a friend that shows, breeds and raises dobermans. It is NOT a moneymaking business!

But, let me tell you, I am so happy with my dobie from a breeder that knows the health status of their dogs, I know she isn't going to get hip displaysia, she doesn't have the bleeding disorder (von willebrand's), and her parents DNA tested clear for cardio. So, glad I spent the extra on a dog from a breeder that can give me those kinds of assurances I am so thankful that there are such wonderful breeders around

Back in 2000 I bought a show potential ACD for $800 from one of the top Canadian kennels. That was a lot on money for an ACD back then.. Since then prices of everything have increased leaps and bounds. Back then we were not even breaking even on our dogs. I can't even imagine how much our hobby costs us now.

Schipperkesue wrote:Back in 2000 I bought a show potential ACD for $800 from one of the top Canadian kennels. That was a lot on money for an ACD back then.. Since then prices of everything have increased leaps and bounds. Back then we were not even breaking even on our dogs. I can't even imagine how much our hobby costs us now.

I am always afraid to add it up Darwin is always asking for a spread sheet on it and I keep putting it off
Sure glad my Memory is getting bad

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As some are aware, co-ownerships are absolute nightmares. A dog/pup I sold and still had a co-ownership in could be a huge liability for us. I can't be responsible for the actions of a dog that I feel I have no right to oversee. So we had no want to enter one of those agreements when selling pups yet did not want to unethically toss pups/dogs out into the world for breeding

Dont even get me started on Co-ownerships LOL
Been in alot of them but will never do it again even after talking with a lawyer a co-ownership aggrement is not even worth the paper it is written on it can be enforced dont get me wrong but to do that will also cost alot of fees layer and court been there done that. in fact I have a friend that has flown to Belgium last week to try and get a dog back that they sold on a co-ownership.
Also now people dont seem to care about a non breeding agreement they will still breed them and sell the pups as purebred unregistered even tho The Animal pedigree act states that it is against the law to sell a animal as purebred with out the registration papers
But people dont care they do it any way and the animal pedigree act does not inforce it.
I only breed when I am wanting a new dog to show or need to bring in new blood
I am thankful that Chihuahua's only have a couple pups Of course I am really starting to fall in Love with SkiperkeeSues dogs and if I dont stop twisting my arm I might get in trouble LOL
Well I will stop for now and wait for more post
Joe

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Co-ownerships....a delight or a disaster. I have been involved in many and all have been positive. I would never enter in to one with someone I did not know very, very well. I currently co own a dog of my own breeding with a lady in the states. She is campaigning and breeding the dog down there. I know her by reputation and experience and have placed a great deal of trust in her that she is not abusing. As a result, we will both benefit.

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There IS a business end to my current coownership, but it is more than that. There is a respect between the parties involved that encompasses the betterment of the breed. A cooperation that will result in mutual improvement of both our lines and the breed in general. Together we can contribute to the improvement of schipperkes in general, and leave a lasting mark on the history of the breed.

Schipperkesue wrote:There IS a business end to my current coownership, but it is more than that. There is a respect between the parties involved that encompasses the betterment of the breed. A cooperation that will result in mutual improvement of both our lines and the breed in general. Together we can contribute to the improvement of schipperkes in general, and leave a lasting mark on the history of the breed.

Sue I think that is great and yes some co-ownerships do work
I have just had bad experiences with them
and what you are doing is a great thing for the breed
Joe

I have bred a number of litters of German Shepherds, and have put considerable expense into them for registrations, OFA, health checks and titles. I think a dog is worth what you ask, there is always someone who feels the dog has the same value, those who don't value my puppies the same don't go home with a puppy. My newest two dogs were purchased for particular lines, the parents being well titled, OFA'd, and health checked with the breeder having a good reputation. Some think I'm nuts for purchasing them for the price I did but it's worth it to me. I have had many co-ownerships and yes though the paper may be worth more than the agreement, it generally scares off those less honest - I have had no problems. I also sell my puppies on extensive contracts and have only had one person blatantly disregard it - and that was sad as the puppy died because of it (when it jumped out of the back of the pickup truck it WASN'T supposed to be in in the first place and strangled...very sad). The rest of the puppies ended up in long term happy homes with happy families.

So with a puppy being worth what you ask, it's up to the asker to ask what they feel the value is. And that value may be different to everyone based on cost, time, bloodlines, rarity, etc. There are labradoodles, doodlelabras, and cocker doodles listed in our area for sale for over $2000 at times, and I presume people end up paying that - cause they agree that the dog is worth it to them.

Well said, Islandgal You are exactly right. Though I have a very hard time understanding how a person will pay 2,000 for a labradoodle that may or may not be hypoallergenic when they can buy a high quality puppy from health tested parents, from breeders that know what they are doing, for closer to half that. I totally understand when a person such as coopslave decides to breed a cross of breeds, and her dogs are serving a purpose for utility, but the whole labradoodle craze is beyond me That being said, we DO have a cheweenie on the farm, but we never would have paid more then the $300 adoption fee from a local rescue for him, and he came fully house trained, kennel trained, neutered, teeth cleaned and microchipped! He is a califorina boy, but hey that's a whole other story!

Tara - thanks so much for your kind comments about my girl. Sometimes I do look at her and think I need to pinch myself because she is so darn pretty. She has a lot going on up in that beautiful head of hers, I've never had such a smart dog in my life, and frankly I don't mind if it's a little while before I have another that is so smart, it's lots of work. She does it all, obedience, agility, schutzhund, water retrieval (of sticks mostly, I'm not much for hunting ducks). All that aside, she is what she was bred for, and has shown me that she will protect me from harm. Jeez, I love that dog

And - on the note of co-ownership, I bought my girl on a co-ownership as I couldn't find a dobie breeder who would sell me one outright. It seems to be the norm for show dogs, maybe that's in the doberman world? I'm not too sure. If I had bought her on a spay/neuter pet contract she would have been mine outright, but I wanted to explore the world of conformation (it was a no-go for either of us). My co-ownership worked pretty well and she is now signed off on as mine, and has been spayed for 3 years.

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value is in the eye of the beholder. worth is only what you can get for it.
i have paid huge amounts for dogs over the years and most likely will again. some were crap, some were exactly what i wanted. i have also been given dogs or gotten them for a song with the same results, some crap, some over the top. the dollar figure does nothing to determine the quality, nor should the dollar figure represent quality.
i give or place or sell for cheap to people who i want to have one of my dogs (usually with long-term self-serving motives in mind). i sell the rest for a price that hopefully offsets the expense of the whole venture. the idea that gets suggested that a breeder is a good breeder because they lose money in the process of breeding dogs is crazy. i hope one year to come out in the black. some litters have come out ahead, some behind. who cares. the quality of the dogs being produced is what matters. if someone can produce a high quality litter and come out ahead financially on it, good for them.
the cost put into breeding stock cannot factor into the cost of the pups. it's not relevant. purchase, upkeep, testing, campaigning, training, whatever. those are costs of having dogs. parents who test well, show well, etc, etc can still produce crap stock. the idea is that the process is bettering the odds, but frankly in a scatter bred program, you lose most potential benefit from the selection anyways.
if testing makes such a huge difference, why do we have to keep doing it? if the test determined that the tested parents would only produce as good or better off-spring, we would only ever have to test the base stock in a breed and every specimen bred off those dogs would be clear. doesn't work that way.
i think people should test their dogs. it's one of the best ways to know what you have whether you intend to breed or just feed. any off-spring cannot be guaranteed to be clear of most conditions tested for simply because of heritage.
there are exceptions of course. some testing does determine whether a particular trait or condition will be passed on.
the value of the pups being produced, should be very high.... to you. hopefully to some other people. this value should be represented by the pup's quality. those pups should be of better quality than the parents. breeding isn't something you do with two dogs, or a yard full of dogs. breeding is a way to keep yourself and others in dogs better than the dogs you have now 25 years from now.
every dog is worth what is paid for it. that is the definition of worth.
if you can't get people to give you $100 for a pup no matter what you have invested, your pups aren't worth anything. if you can sell pups for $3000, that's what they are worth and good for you. it's when the $, whatever it is, takes priority over the value of the pups being produced that things can take a turn south.
let's not forget that some of the top producers of show dogs, field dogs, service dogs etc etc come from commercial kennels. "for profit" kennels do not by definition produce low quality dogs.
set your price compared to what is being sold (not listed, sold. there is a difference sometimes) in the working world of your breed. these are representatives that are valued for what they are meant to be and a going-rate is usually obvious. then you know that what matters in the breed is being appreciated and you can see what people can or will pay for.