Is it the Process...or the Product?

When I was in University we were told that when teaching art to elementary students, it is the process, not the product that is the most satisfying to children. In other words, in the children's minds, the act of creating art is far more important than the piece of art they produce.

So how does this transfer over into the breeding of chickens and other livestock? What is more important to you? Do you gain more fulfillment from the challange of breeding and creating, or from owning a top quality animal?

I guess I was not a textbook child. I was never any good at art, and hated it because I am a visionary. If I could not creat what I was envisioning, I was mad. For me, it is about the end result. I am selfish that way. I hope there are others that enjoy the process more.

i love the process when it comes to chickens! for me, it is alot of fun and fulfilling to get a breed that is rare and work on trying to improve it, and get it back up to the standered! im just speaking for my self, it would have been cool to have started with really good birds from a breeder but i don't think i would have had as much fun if i got perfect birds right at the start! but thats just me though!

The process is fine if you believe you are getting somewhere and will eventually make progress....its the in-between, doubting yourself and your stock stuff that sucks!

It is the breeding and creating that does it for me. I agree with Steve.

The end result is never good enough for me and even great birds are not perfect so there is always a challenge. I drive myself crazy with breeding sometimes, but I really like the journey it takes me on. Even if I went out and bought really good birds from someone, I would want to tweek them.

I always pick tough breeds and colours, I guess I am just a sucker for punishment!

Good Question...

I think both are very important to me. I am not sure I can have one with out the other. The Process of starting with less than ideal birds and seeing what can be done is very exciting, but in the same breath I also know that I am always striving to see more improvement in my birds. They were historically kept for this purpose and to be stunning to look at... so I continue to work for improvement.

I seem to like a good challenge so I am not sure starting with the perfect Product would be as rewarding. As the blood sweat and tears put into a breeding project make it something that you truly have worked to recreate. Also I believe that we who have had to struggle to improve our flocks seem to have a better hand on the breed than someone who may be handed the perfect product.

I know my birds are far from perfect, but I know they have came along way from some of my original birds. I am proud of my flock, so I guess I might be in the Process stage right now..?

Definitely the process that keeps me involved. Of course, I am looking to improve the product as I go but I just enjoy the whole process of breeding and selecting etc.

Ha Sue, you sneak! This is a trick question, isn't it? Because breeding chickens and creating a finger painting are, in no way, remotely related.

With finger painting (art) your energy, your movements, your choice of colour, your choice of painted surface, when you stop, when you start, if you add more colour, if you wipe some off, is all up to you. You are in control of the whole process.

When you toss two birds together in a breeding pen that is the ONLY thing you are in control of and what comes out is the genetic work of two birds and how they develop and what lurks in their heritage and it is all OUT OF YOUR HANDS. So making art is a creative process that is personally directed. Breeding chickens is gambling, tossing the dice, waiting to see what comes out. But it is not nearly as influenced by your energies as by the enrgies of the animals involved. Art and breeding chickens are not the same thing. If you took mud, sticks, duct tape and glue and made a chicken from scratch...THAT would be creating a chicken.

As for the final result, to look upon your finger painting and think, 'euww, that isn't so great', is to judge yourself and your own efforts and that is fine, judge away, you are your own best or worst critic. BUt to look upon the work of nature, the effort of two living creatures to create more living creatures and judge them not good enough based on some arbitrary idea or standard, is, in my opinion, to walk where angels fear to tread.

So from what everyone is saying so far, it is the learning curve in creating the breed, developing the breed and improving the breed that you find most satisfying.

Is this to say that if someone wanted to trade your current imperfect stock of "Silver Spangled Swartzhaubens" for a perfect pair of "Silver Spangled Swartzhaubens" and you knew the best you could do was to attempt to maintain the quality... in fact it would be likely that your continued breeding of this perfect pair would likely result in less than perfect chicks and there was no way you would ever improve- you would turn down this offer of birds that would guarantee you top wins in any show you entered?

Uno, I am only using the art analogy to illustrate the meaning of the term, "process or product". In only a few ways is breeding similar to painting and that was not the point I wanted to make.

However, is you head spinning with my last scenario?

My head IS spinning. Man, my hair looks REALLY bad!

The process is always fun, the different steps and high hopes for wanted results.
Even when working with an almost finished product, there is still always something to improve no matter how perfect. And in the meantime, you want something that appeals to you even if you are just starting up with new birds. You cannot make chicken soup from chickenshit is what I want to say:) To keep them as good or make them better is the goal and just as much fun is watching them, hatching eggs and raising the chicks.

Start off with stock that you absolutely love, then take good care of it and hope for good hatches. Add your own imagination when selecting breed pens for the next generation and watch the birds in the green pasture when fully developed in the sunlight...YEAH!!

Sue I am not saying that I wouldn't take them up on the offer of the trade, but I have learned that I would keep some of my original breeding for backup and possibly infusion of new blood. Just because they are wrapped in a beautiful package doesn't mean they are vigorous, fertile, or productive.

I would be doubtful that a runway supermodel would be able to do some of the tasks that a strong farm gal could...

k.r.l wrote:
I would be doubtful that a runway supermodel would be able to do some of the tasks that a strong farm gal could...

Hear, hear, k.r.l, hear, hear!!

UNO ~passes uno a hat~ This will have to work till you can get that hair fixed.
I sort of see what you are saying but don't entirely agree. When we place creatures together to mate, we are in fact manipulating the genetic palate. Both beast and bird are allowed to freely choose a mate they usually pick the strongest and the ones which appeal to them.
When we manipulative humans play goddess, we pick are breeders for traits we want mirrored in their offspring. The genes can still play boss as anyone who breeds knows, putting A to B doesn't me C is going to look like it should.

SUE~ While I do enjoy the end product and showing it off for people to be inspired by it, I also like the small things that going into creating a finished product. The taking of raw element and seeing within it the promise of what it can be. I also enjoy the one element you can't control in the creating process - when something not meant to happen does. That wonderful mistake not intended. When it happens and it's good - isn't it wonderous. It makes me feel special that I got to see something that really should not have and yet there it is baby.

Hahaha, Kyle! Supermodel!

I have discovered that 'hold them back' trick myself with many species of animals and it has saved my a$$ several times!

He he ....

I think that the process is fun, rewarding, entertaining, calming, soothing but also frustrating, infuriating, stinky, poopy and hard sometimes. I'm a perfectionist so to me the product is also rewarding, when I see I've made good decisions/pairings and have nice offspring.


Now, in another twist to how one might read this question............

The process of preparing the bird for the oven, the herbs, spices, white wine and roasting of the bird is NOTHING compared to the delicious, moist, flavorful product... mwa ha ha

It is all about the process for me....the journey.

But I think most people will be on that journey with their birds forever no mater where they start!

In some ways it is more rewarding to start with birds where you can see lots of room for improvement. It is even better when you can see most of the traits you want in your birds, you just lack a single bird that has the whole package. So one has good size and type but the other has better feather quality and color....put them together and you might get offspring that are better than the parents!

Since there is no such thing as a perfect bird (that's why they draw those pictures in the SOP instead of having photos!) there is always room for improvement. Maybe it is just less obvious where the faults are.

And then there is the art of conditioning and grooming your bird for the show on top of it all. Perhaps some people find that the most rewarding (it is still a process....).

So Kyle is right....the supermodel silver spangled whatevers may LOOK perfect...until you need to make breakfast!

Fun question Sue.

[quote="Schipperkesue"]When I was in University we were told that when teaching art to elementary students, it is the process, not the product that is the most satisfying to children. In other words, in the children's minds, the act of creating art is far more important than the piece of art they produce.
quote]

I started my Ed degree at the same university at about the same time. We were also told that if you were an interesting teacher with fun lessons, then you did not need classroom management skills.

HORSE FEATHERS!... to both. I believe that it about payoff..

I think that to some people the product is all important, however the product might not be the "best" animal. To them it is not the proud ownership of great animals, but the accolades, admiration and awards they afford. It is more important to get the attention.That is the end product. This type of person is regularly seen in horse, dog and even cat shows. They buy the best, have a pro handler take them to Number one, then move onto the next "winner" dog. With others the professed love of process is actually the goal of product, but not in having the best end result birds, but in having cute of chicks or large flocks of adults, or quantities of eggs. This would be the quantity over quality type, although this does not exclude a sincere effort towards quality.

I think that others who seem to "get lost in the process" are actually receiving their payoff through the various aspects of the process, they enjoy the steps and small payoffs along the way.

So, as for process being more important than product, I think that the process is terminally unrewarding if there is no payoff in the product. If painting is fun The process of any action is enjoyable as long as the payoff is relatively greater than something else. The process and can BE the product, the product being bright colours to look at, or the feeling of fingepaint. Diminishing returns keeps most from going too far with any specific process. A person may enjoy the first few chocolates, but subsequent ones become less relatively enjoyable and eventually may become a negative experience. Generally people will stop early on, when the enjoyment level starts to diminish. If a child is painting and has a goal in mind but is unable to acheive the goal (product) then frustration (diminishing returns) eventually makes the process less important than the product.

I think it is this way for most people. Most people have a goal in mind, be it the best birds, or lots of chicks, or improving a breed/line, or producing eggs, the sence of wellbeing/calm/relaxation from watching/tending the flock, or a combination of the aforementioned etc. If the process does not have a reward then there is no incentive to continue the process.


A child who does not like art because they have no natural proclivity or inate tallent can come to enjoy art class if they learn a technique that has a payoff for them before frustrations ets in. Once that is acheived they will often be more willing to extend thier effort to acheive the payoff. The child that enjoys art and has a natural proclivity or inate tallent can be easily put off if there is no end reward or product/payoff.

I dont think that one is more important than the other, they are both important, and the degree to which is more important is variable.

Well, in the case of my art work, the finished product is definitely not the driving factor. many eons ago I used to do a bit of oil painting, and I could lose myself for hours working on that canvas. But the finished result was never something I could feel proud to put on display. Those old paintings are tucked away in a box in the basement hoping no one will find them!!

However I would feel quite proud to display an original Robert Bateman in my living room...

So does that equate to a chicken addiction? Well,I feel proud to be the owner one truly outstanding rooster (maybe equivalent in some ways to owning a Robert Bateman painting?) but I can't claim any responsibility for producing him. As much as I enjoy my chickens just for the sake of having chickens, I would also love to breed and raise my own show-champion some day. So that goal keeps me striving to do my best. When you are passionate about something, whatever it might be...the arts, acting, sports, business... whatever your passion is, to be recognized for excellence in that field has got to be an incredibly gratifying experience.

For me because i am a logical thinker i could never get in to art. I have to have a certan way to do things and if i don't have it that way it screws me over. I can see the big picture but can not fit smaller pictures to make a big picture. So it's the product i am welling to take years to achive my big picture one step at the time. Even if it's not the way some one else would.

I like takeing pictures because i get that end product right then and there!

Let me add one more twist.

I would also say the process and the product are forever joined. You cannot be satisfied without success in both. For eksample I have seen many people come and go in the dog show world.

Some continue the process of attempting to breed a winning dog without ever eksperiencing the product of producing one. Sometimes they last for years breeding mediocre dogs before fading away, or continue, never achieving their goal.

Some buy a quality dog and immediately begin winning without understanding why. These people never last as long as the first group. They can never achieve their initial success and lose interest fast.

A child who does not like art because they have no natural proclivity or inate tallent can come to enjoy art class if they learn a technique that has a payoff for them before frustrations ets in. Once that is acheived they will often be more willing to extend thier effort to acheive the payoff. The child that enjoys art and has a natural proclivity or inate tallent can be easily put off if there is no end reward or product/payoff.

I dont think that one is more important than the other, they are both important, and the degree to which is more important is variable.

Do teachers still award Gold Star stickers for doing well? I know in grade school [classes 1, 2 and 3] treachers would use gold stars or stickers to students for their work. It would drive our little butts to achieve good marks just so we could get a colored star, the gold one being the best you could do.

Oh no ono... it is not a little gold star for good performance, now you have to hand out a sticker for bringing thier agenda, for doing thier class work, for putting thier shoes away, for not interupting, for being focused for more than 5 min, for smiling instead of glaring, etc etc. You have to give them stickers, and GOOD oneses, non of that cheap gold star stuff, they want holograms and sparkles, for EVERYTHING! Ther are classes I work in that you give the kids CANDY for behaving.

Kids get "class bucks" for behaving in class. They then cash them in for toys and candy later.
Kids have cards that they collect stickers on, for the smallest things, that they cash in later.

Ms de Bruin refuses to PAY a child to behave his/herself and do what the child is supposed to do. I have one music class I covr that the kids argued with me that they should all be given a gum after class because they behaved and that is what Mrs H does. (she does, Im actualy a good friend of hers). They have learned that I will pint out and thnak good behaviour, but I will not pay to get it.

I wish that the little gold star still ment something. It sure ment something to me.

Getting back to the pedagog of all this, if you work harder to get the gold star, then the PRODUCT (gold star) is more important than the progess.

I do use rewards, just not a system. It varies. One thing I make sure of though is that when I give a reward, they know they got it, they know why they got it. SOmetimes it is quiet and just between us, and sometimes it is made public. Depends on the kid, the situation, the behaviour or success I am trying to reinforce.

I need more coffee, sigh.... long day....

Articsun, you have made me think of my past a bit. It is only in the last 2 years that I have been full time on the ranch, before this I have been a Teaching Assistant (not sure what they are called in Canada now) or in the office of Elementary and High Schools since 1989.

I know lots of teachers and others in the schools give things. I never really went that route. I usually had a quiet word with a student that had an achievement or did really well. Sometimes out loud in class but I would try to gauge it to the student. Some were uncomfortable with the attention, some loved it.

I really like to inspire intrinsic motivation as much as possible. It was so great to see the smile or the pride when they were told of a job well done. They liked that I noticed that they had tried extra hard, even if maybe the mark was not the best in the class.

Maybe this was my method because the gold stars didn't mean much to me in school, but the feelings of a job well done or someone noticing I was really trying even if I wasn't quite getting it right ment more to me.

I guess that is why I like the process of things and the feelings of pride when it pans out even if it is not quite right......yet.

Maybe the whole process or product question is about whether we are more driven by intrinsic or extrinsic motivation.

This has been a very interesting discussion.