Halal slaughter

I was wondering if anyone else was gong to bring this up. Hoping is more like it. BUt since I see an empty spot where I think this discussion should be, I guess I'll open my big mouth and insert my snowboot.

Did any of you see that article (I saw it on some internet site) that people in Quebec are up in arms over beef being sluaghtered according to the laws/customs of Halal? Now, don't quote me, my facts could be way off, but I beleive in this Islamic culture, they will not eat meat that is unconscious at time of death. They insist that their animals be fully awake and conscious as their thraots are slit and they bleed to death. I have read this before, actually.

IN Quebec, the mandate of the slaughter houses is that an animal is to be rendered senseless BEFORE it is bled. I am unclear whether a stun gun to the head actually causes death or just unconsciousness, but either way, the aim of the slaughter house is to conduct slaughter in the most humane way possible (whether or not they acheive this is a different debate). It seems the Quebec public is mad that this Halal slaughter flies in the face of what they, as a culture, have decided is the proper way to kill an animal...with the animal NOT AWARE of what is happening.

I have read that some ethnic groups like to eat a spring lamb and there is quite a market for sheep farmers for this special occassion. But some farmers refused to sell live lambs after witnessing their throats being cut in the parking lot. Others are not bothered by having their lambs being killed in this manner.

I have been struggling with how I feel about this. I have been trying to figure out how the fact that we chop the heads off a chicken squares with my approval or disapproval of Halal slaughter. I am struggling with where a country draws its lines on political/cultural/religious freedoms. Is there any point squawking about slaughter house practices when there is a segment of the population who insist on slaughter in the way many of us consider completely unacceptable? (awake and aware of a slow bleed and a cut throat?)

Would it make a difference to you when selling your livestock if you knew this was the way they would die? Would you refuse sale? Or do you think this isn't such a bad method of death? I have not done this, but anyone with high speed could youtube Halal slaughter, I'm sure there is stuff out there. Personally, I don't want to see it.

So, thoughts anyone?

Oh Uno, you sure know how to stir the pot, don't you!

The animal rights people are all over this one I will bet.

I used to work in an area with many Muslim children so I asked them about how it was done.

They said that the animal had it's throat slit with a very sharp knife. Apparently it is through the jugular and windpipe. They said that proper prayers had to be said to thank God for the life of the animal.

I guess the problem lies if you believe an animal suffers as it is bled out. My take on it is no, properly done the animal bleeds out and dies of lack of blood to the brain very quickly. When we kill rabbits this way death happens in an instant. I just don't thank God for the rabbit's life. Perhaps I should.

I think the stun and kill laws were created for ease of killing in large numbers and for control of the animal to be killed as well as to make the public think the slaughter is less barbaric.

Is it less painful? I don't know. I have not been slaughtered using either method so I have no comparison.

I do know that Halal meat is very tasty and of all the food my Muslim children brought for me to try over the years, convinced me their parents used high quality ingredients and were topnotch cooks!

"Since animals cannot communicate, it is impossible to completely rule out the possibility that a correctly made incision may cause some unpleasant sensation. However, one can definitely conclude that poor cutting methods and stressful restraint methods are not acceptablet methods are not acceptable." Temple Grandin.

Ach...attempted to cut and paste from a Temple Grandin research paper on ritual slaughter. It didn't work.

I would strongly suggest anyone inteested in this from an non-emotional point of view Google Temple Grandin Halal slaughter and read what you find. She says, basically, if all criteria are met, this can be an acceptable way for animals to die.

And there's the kicker! I am absolutely willing to bet that in 99.9% of the cases, here in Canada, NONE of the criteria are being met. That animals are being hoisted by a hind leg and hacked in the neck which according to Grandin, is most defintely NOT acceptable slaughter! There is a right way and wrong way to do this and hacks with knives and chained or shackled animals is THE WRONG WAY.

ALL slaughter in this country needs to shape up! Being cloaked in the untouchable robes of religious freedom DOES NOT AND SHOULD NEVER excuse anyone from inflicting needless suffering on an animal. Religious reasons are not, in my view, an excuse of any sort for sadistic ignorance of how to do something right.

Uno, I must take the opposite thought. I am willing to bet that the animals are slaughtered humanely. Most Muslem people I know are very serious about their beliefs. There is an additional ekspectation that the animals face in a certain direction and the bleed out is swift so the meat has no pooling or clots in it. Hoisting by a leg would not show the respect to the animal that the prayers imply.

Now as you can tell, I tend to be very pro-Muslim in my beliefs and I take a fair bit of crap for it. There is a huge amount of misinformation gleefully shared out there by the general public about this religion and the culture it encompasses. Unfortunately too much press is given to the negative activities that some Muslims engage in. These people seem to be a small minority but of course, it is the outrageous that sells papers.

The children I taught and the families that participated in our school activities, that invited me for supper, cried during parent teacher interviews, overwhelmed with happiness to be in Canada and to have the opportunity to give their children an education that they would not have at home. They were open, friendly, God fearing, people like so many immigrants before them, including my father and my mother's parents who immigrated to Canada years ago from
Germany and England for precisely the same reasons.

Oh dear, I am getting a little preachy now. Stepping off my soap bocks. Thanks Uno!

Even if all of the criteria are met, who is this person to say that it is an acceptable method of killing. Like Sue says only the animal knows for sure. I personally don't think hoisting an animal upside down is cause for concern. I have been hoisted upside down and it didn't hurt at all. A quick slice with a sharp knife will probably feel something like a paper cut and then as the blood volumn and pressure is reduced the animal will feel faint and then pass out. I am one who believes in God and believe that he has put animals on the Earth for our enjoyment and use as well as food and clothing. I do not condone unneccesary pain, suffering or stress on an animal but the quickest most painless method would be what I would think was acceptable. Personally a gun shot to the temple would be quick and the animal would not suffer long. I am not sure that the current method of shocking prior to the leathal cut or blow is any less painful. In fact I would think that an electrical shock would be just as scary and more painful than a quick slice with a sharp knife. I have had a severe electrical shock to the point that it caused the inside of the roof of my mouth to bleed and it was way more painful than any paper cut or even when I cut my thumb off with a drywall knife which was not near as painful as the electrical shock. Just my thoughts.

I do know that they have strick rules to the slaughter methods and it has to do with there beliefs .I'm having a problem understanding why this would be a issue ? We all have our own beliefs and most of us don't really care to much as to what they are ? Those that find people who are on the same page as it were get along , yet we claim to be a non judgemental society yet we sure are quick to point the finger .The animal rights people just need another excuse to stir the pot as it were and maybe it's time that people thought long and hard about what is really being said .Freedom of Speech and expression are what we all have , doesn't mean we have to agree ,and if you don't then look away .I will not judge another person for what they do , it's there choice !!

This is a heavy topic and thank you for even entering the fray...many will shy away.

Prairie Dog, I think looking away is what allows abuse on many levels. It's called turning a blind eye. In some cases that is fine, in other cases, it isn't. Knowing the difference is the beginning of wisdom. In our criminal system if you know something pertinent and do nothing, you can be considered an accessroy. Guilt by association. At some point NOT speaking up IS a crime. If that is the case here...good question.

Dan, are you asking who Temple Grandin is? If you have not heard of her, you should find out. She is a very fascinating woman who has designed 50% of the slaughter facilites in the US. She works for humane killing. I just watched a movie about her and I would recommend it to everyone!(I have also read her books) If you are asking in the general sense, 'who is to say what's right or wrong', let me answer that. Me. I say. I rule the world! Darn right it's our job to judge! If not, we're all a bunch of mindless, opinionless sheep to the slaughter...and let's hope it's humane slaughter! Being hoisted by the leg as a 200 pound man and being hoisted by the leg as a 1000 pound beef are in no way related. You knew you were likley to be let down at some point and perhaps you were upside down by two cahined ankles as opposed to one. An upside down cow is a PANICKING cow, of that we are certain! (slaughter houseworkers get injured by upside down flailing cows, they are a hazard!)

Sue, whether god fearing, grateful or not, that is not the topic at issue. You can be as wonderful as all get out, but if you beat your wife, kids, or starve your animals, your veneer of 'the good guy' goes right out the window. And for me, that includes how animals die for your consumption. I am not convinced that Halal animals are being slaughtered correctly. I am not saying that I am against Halal slaughter...I am against it done WRONG when we know there is a correct way to do it! This news item might be the work of extremists...but maybe not. Maybe where there's smoke, there's fire. I think it is reasonable to say to a culture , fine, if this is a big deal to you, proceed as long as it meets our criteria for humane, panic free slaughter. I think this issue is worthy of further investigation...our own slaughter facilites are worthy of further investigation!

uno wrote: I am not convinced that Halal animals are being slaughtered correctly.

Sorry to take such a small part of your thoughtful post, Uno. At the risk of disrepecting such a long thought out and well eksplained response, I am a cut-to-the-chase kinda gal. Why don't you contact a local group that slaughters animals to the Halal standard and find out for yourself. I have always believed strongly in first-hand information.

I would also like to add a definition of Halal slaughter to this discussion, which is correctly called Dihabiha. Here is what Wikipedia says:

"This method of slaughtering animals consists of using a well sharpened knife to make a swift, deep incision that cuts the front of the throat, the carotid artery, wind pipe and jugular veins but leaves the spinal cord intact. The animal is then hung upside-down and left to exsanguinate."

As a comparison to this, here is a Wikipedia description of Kosher slaughter as done by people of the Jewish faith:

"These strict guidelines require the animal be killed by a single cut across the throat to a precise depth, severing both carotid arteries, both jugular veins, both vagus nerves, the trachea and the esophagus, no higher than the epiglottis and no lower than where cilia begin inside the trachea, causing the animal to bleed to death."

I find it very interesting that in the news Muslim practices are being questioned while Jewish practices are not. This leads me to believe that this whole issue is not about animal welfare at all but perhaps about something else.

Guess I will add a small part also.
We use to sell lambs and Goat kids
to the Muslim alot and they would come to our place and hold them down say a prayer or what ever they said and then they would cut their throat and bleed them out,
The animals were always calm when they did it and did not thrash around.
so I guess they were doing something right.
as for saying a prayer I always say a prayer of thanks to the grandmothers and the grandfathers for providing us with this offer of food.
Dont know if it helps but I guess it is the Native influences I have around me all the time
sorry I guess it was more than a little bit
Joe

That is interesting Joe. The lady I bought my goats from said she was selling them because she was tired of the Muslims phoning her up and wanting to 'sacrifice' the animals on her property. She said it with disgust and likened it to witchcraft or devil worship.

Schipperkesue wrote:That is interesting Joe. The lady I bought my goats from said she was selling them because she was tired of the Muslims phoning her up and wanting to 'sacrifice' the animals on her property. She said it with disgust and likened it to witchcraft or devil worship.

I dont understand that as they were always Kind and polite and never mentioned sacrifice and I never thought of it be any kindd of witchcraft or devil worship.
I guess I better be careful when I kill anything for food or people will start talking about me
I always cut when I butcher it is fast and they bleed out fast and the meat always seems tender. But if that is how she felt I guess thats her opinion But I wonder if she would have asked them why they did it the way they did they would have explained it to her.
Glad you got the goats cant wait to hear about your Babies when they are born and if you want I have some good recipes

OK, here we go!

Uno I respect you very much, but this one I feel you might have to just let go of!

Religion, in my opinion, is a topic that ALWAYS brings controversy in one way or another. So, because of that, I will not get into anything about what I do believe in or do not believe in because I'm sure no one really cares any ways! I will however make a comment or two about how people on this site have described how they butcher chickens. First off though, before everyone starts responding back with there technique on how they butcher a chicken I would like to suggest you start yet "another" thread about "How Do You Butcher Your Chickens?" , because frankly I couldn't care less how any one does it!

We have heard how many people like to swing an axe. We have heard how some people like to attempt pithing. We have also heard before how many people prefer to do the bleeding out thing. I'm sure I might have left out a few other ways but it doesn't matter much. My point is because the worlds majority, and yes the Muslim religion is the most practiced religion in the world, believes in bleeding out an animal in the name of god, we now have a problem with it?!?! Good Grief!!! I am willing to bet that the companies that actually practice the Halal method of slaughter are much better at it and have less FUBAR's than the axe waving Backyardigans!!!

Actually what I meant was if it offends you then look away , or maybe a better way of saying it would be ...........Mind Your Own Business , someone might take offence to what you do ?? I never implied that you shouldn't take some action if it is against the law ,rather like I said , we're quick to judge because "" we don't think "" it is the way WE think it should be ,case in point .....I used to live with a buddy and his wife who was Ukranian and when it came to the fall slaughter I said I'd help .Most of what they did was normal in my views ,but when it came to doing the turkey I really had a hard time with it .They hung the turkey upside down by a rope attached to it's legs and then the pulled the neck out staright and inserted a very slim long shaft knife down it's throat and twisted it around so that the bird bleed till it died ! Normal for them , not for most of us .....but I didn't judge them for it ,rather I learned that they had a different way then we did !

prairie dog wrote:Most of what they did was normal in my views ,but when it came to doing the turkey I really had a hard time with it .They hung the turkey upside down by a rope attached to it's legs and then the pulled the neck out staright and inserted a very slim long shaft knife down it's throat and twisted it around so that the bird bleed till it died ! Normal for them , not for most of us .....but I didn't judge them for it ,rather I learned that they had a different way then we did !

What they were probably doing is pithing. It is when you cut the base of the brain free from the spinal cord. If done properly (it takes a bit of practice) it is very effective and aids in plucking!

I know nothing of Muslim culture.
I do not affliate myself with any religion.
I guess I do side with animal rights on some issues.
Finally, I eat meat.

I watched a documentary called "Workingmans Death" and one of the segments showed an open slaughterhouse in a Nigerian city. It showed, very graphically, how livestock sold there have their throats slit and die by being bled out. After the throat is slit, the animal is basically left to fall and die. There is nothing wonderful about seeing an animal thrash around with its life blood gushing about.

We here in the western world believe we are more humane because we choose to stun our livestock before killing it. The only difference here as opposed to say a Nigerian market is the killing floor can here is sanitary in that the blood can be hosed away.
It has been proven that while we use a humane method, such as an electric bath for poultry, doesn't mean that all birds going through the bath are properly stunned. NOt to mention that animals in transport are often injured and killed while on route or while be unloaded.

Is the Halal way any more or less painless than how we slaughter by redering an animal unconscious first? Take a person who is alive and conscious and has their throat slit. It is said when done correctly, blood will fill the throat almost instantaneously and the person will choke quickly to death. Compare this to a person who is put under for an operation and dies on the table. Having had operations myself, I can tell you that I would rather die being put under because you don't feel anything. I'm not so sure I would want to die just having my throat slit and to be left aware as my life slips.

Is an animal aware of pain and of its dying? A biology teacher once told me of an experiment involving amoeba which is as basic a lifeform as you can have. When an electric shock was given to the amoeba, it recoiled. Now an amoeba may not be able to read or write but, as my bio teach told me, if it didn't have any concept of pain why then would it move away from stimuli that caused it pain?

I do think rendering an animal unconscious first, if done properly, is more humane than just slitting its throat and allowing it to bleed out.

I am not against Halal, and I have nothing against muslims for saying so. But I disagree that their practice of ritualistic slaughter doesn't cause the animal any pain. But let's not pat ourselves on the back either cause our Western Method with the lack of respect for livestock in general, lack of government enforcement of laws & codes, along with Big AGs unwillingness to change how it does business, the killing floor is the same color no matter how the deed is done.

Schipperkesue wrote:I would also like to add a definition of Halal slaughter to this discussion, which is correctly called Dihabiha. Here is what Wikipedia says:

"This method of slaughtering animals consists of using a well sharpened knife to make a swift, deep incision that cuts the front of the throat, the carotid artery, wind pipe and jugular veins but leaves the spinal cord intact. The animal is then hung upside-down and left to exsanguinate."

As a comparison to this, here is a Wikipedia description of Kosher slaughter as done by people of the Jewish faith:

"These strict guidelines require the animal be killed by a single cut across the throat to a precise depth, severing both carotid arteries, both jugular veins, both vagus nerves, the trachea and the esophagus, no higher than the epiglottis and no lower than where cilia begin inside the trachea, causing the animal to bleed to death."

I find it very interesting that in the news Muslim practices are being questioned while Jewish practices are not. This leads me to believe that this whole issue is not about animal welfare at all but perhaps about something else.

You mean Racism against Muslims?
I would agree to that. I am a regular poster to Care2Go which talks about everything from animal rights, human rights, politics, ect. There was a topic about TLC canceling a show about what it is about being Muslim in the USA. One issue that was brought up in many posts dealt with one episode on how this Muslim family dealt with 9/11 and how they found it difficult on the day of the anniversary.

I would say most of the comments left by people were very racists and anti-muslim. After reading many comments it left me with the opinion that Muslim is the new Black.

As for the Jewish practices. I grew up in Montreal right next door to the Jewish community back in the 70s. I don't recall any group becoming outraged over how Koser meats were prepared.

I am loving this discussion, not just for the subject matter, but for the respect everyone is showing for wach others opinions. Hard to find a group of people with such diverse beliefs who are able to ekspress them so thoughtfully and respectully. Hear hear!

DWD, before you cast aspersions on my sensibilites, I'd like to refer to that duck of yours! I think it's been drinking. A lot.

I guess what I was hoping to say, and obviously not doing a very good job, is that I believe ritual killing can be done humanely, but most often it is not. Hoisting by a hind leg and slicing a throat is NOT our accepted standard of humane.

I did not refer to Wikipedia as a source about Halal or Jewish slaughter, but did read some of Temple Grandin's work on the subject where she states that an animal that has inhaled its own blood is considered unacceptable. Therefore this business of Halal killing is quite precise and thick with religious rules. She feels it can be done humanely, if all steps to ensure this are taken! We all agree that our own slaughter houses are doing a crap job of humane killing. From everything I have gathered, the Hala slaughter is no better.

This is not about religion. For me this is about knowing better and doing better because we have no excuse not to. And your religious beliefs are no excuse. THe infliction of needless and avoidable suffering and panic when it is possible to accomplish the same without it, is, to me, NOT something we need to tolerate. In our own slauhgter houses or someone else's.

This video has interesting information, but a small part of it is touched on from minute 46 to 51. If your computer/internet speed will let you fast forward, it's worth a quick listen. Temple Grandin speaks to topics that concern many of us.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Schipperkesue wrote:That is interesting Joe. The lady I bought my goats from said she was selling them because she was tired of the Muslims phoning her up and wanting to 'sacrifice' the animals on her property. She said it with disgust and likened it to witchcraft or devil worship.

Like there's any difference? They're all superstitions. Why some superstitions get special treatment under the guise of "religion" is beyond me.

As I started reading the thread, I immediately thought about kosher regulations, knowing full well that they are essentially the same and come from the very same texts originally. It's all a crock as far as I am concerned. The animals welfare comes first and foremost. If it goes against your religion to kill an animal humanely, there's something wrong with your religion.

I don't have anything to say aside from one of the contributing factor to us selling our Boer goat herd a few years ago is that we were not interested in watching our goat kids bleed to death on our property, and no one else was interested in buying them.

Dark Wing Duck wrote:

prairie dog wrote:Most of what they did was normal in my views ,but when it came to doing the turkey I really had a hard time with it .They hung the turkey upside down by a rope attached to it's legs and then the pulled the neck out staright and inserted a very slim long shaft knife down it's throat and twisted it around so that the bird bleed till it died ! Normal for them , not for most of us .....but I didn't judge them for it ,rather I learned that they had a different way then we did !

What they were probably doing is pithing. It is when you cut the base of the brain free from the spinal cord. If done properly (it takes a bit of practice) it is very effective and aids in plucking!

.......and that would be my point ! Unless you understand what is happening you can draw quick conclusions with out even knowing what is happening

I am not sure where to start with this. I certainly have enjoyed the discussion and different opinions.

I really am not sure where I stand. I can sort of see both sides of this (I am a Libra). I agree I think any killing to be done should be humane.

I have had the good fortune, or bad however you look at it, to have had a tour of a slaughter house in Australia. They were doing grown bulls when we were there and we got to see from start to finish. It was not what I would call a pleasant experience, but I had a new respect for the people that worked there and supplied our meat. I know I could not have worked there, but I still eat meat. There were things I didn't like, but I understand that killing is never a nice thing for me, but something that has to be done if I choose to eat meat.

We practise low stress stock handling here. I think it is not only the time of processing that this sort of thing should be thought about.

I also wonder if these things start to make headlines again when the animal rights organizations start to need money from donations. Maybe it has slowed down and the need a cause to generate a little income. (this is the terrible sceptics in me and I don't often let it speak. ).

My biggest issue with it would be the lack of severing the spinal cord. Nerves concentrait in the spinal cord. Nerves transmit pain. Even if its throat is cut and your going to be brain dead in under one minuet, theres still going to be a period of time when the animal is in extreme pain, and terror. My personal preference for larger animals would be stun gun (used properly!), then bleed, or a small calibre rifle bullet strait to the brain (again, done properly). Chickens, I personally use a very sharp hatchet (not an axe, to innacurate) and a strong, stable stump.
If a customer informed me they were planning to process in that traditional manner, I would likely ask to see it performed the first time, to at least ensure they are skilled enough to make it as quick as possible. I wouldn't sell to a butcher who did large volume kills, too easy for some untrained individual to come along a row of hanging chickens and make careless cuts.

Appologies if these points have already been made, its been a long night.

*Edit* Although, thinking that over, I guess if I was to be fair, everybody buying adult birds with the intention of home prossessing should have to "prove themselves" once, no matter what their method. Good thing I dont sell to the public!