Keeper… or King?

Up until today my young roos have all been living together in relative harmony. They share a cozy 8x6 coop with a large covered run. There are no hens or pullets in the immediate area, only the two female duck a few pens over and they can't see each other over a plywood partition.

This afternoon I heard a ruckus and went outside to investigate and found my two AM roos going at each other like they were contenders for the title, meanwhile the BR boys danced around them like excited spectators. Dumbfounded I watched them for a few seconds and than just like a bell had rung it was over. The loser made a beeline for the coop with the victors hot on his heels. I found the poor guy hiding under the nesting boxes while the champ loudly proclaimed his dominance along with his mates.

Now I realize this is normal pecking order stuff but the cockerel that got his butt kicked was already at the bottom of the ladder from what I’ve seen, so much so I think I even witnessed the more dominant boys trying to mate him once. Hope I’m wrong about that one….

Anyway, I got to thinking maybe I had upset the natural order when I was taking pictures of everyone (I was crouching down at their level alot, though none showed any aggression then). Today my #2 AM roo tried to give me the wing dance, but quickly backed off when I made a move towards him. Not good. So I was researching rooster behavior online and found this article and thought it was quite interesting, even though some of it goes against how I was told to handle my boys.

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Thoughts? Opinions? Should I be stepping up my Alpha game?

makes allot of sense..its worth a try! i may have to do this with my marans...the roosters are such jerks...

I practice the soup appproach to mean roosters. Don't like the behaviour, don't want their genes.

Yes I agree with ipf, don't want no fights or bad genes. Homemade soup beats store-brought soup any day.

ipf wrote:I practice the soup appproach to mean roosters. Don't like the behaviour, don't want their genes.

But what if it's your 'prize' rooster that you've worked hard to get? Those don't come a dime a dozen..... What is the chance that temperament really will be passed down through dominant genes? My thinking is a rooster is more wild than domestic and it is 'intact' so it is going to challenge when it sees an opportunity. I'm just putting this out there because I'm still trying to figure out where I draw the line myself. I'm open to hearing others' experience.

This is an AWESOME article - THANKS! Will start doing what I'm not yet and more of what I am doing so far!

The only thing it says that I don't get (I understand why - but how?) don't crouch/bend down etc - how the heck do you feed/water? I'm using all low feeders (with roller bar on top) and you have to bend down to clean out the tops of them or at least to pick them up to clean out loose stuff on top standing up. This is when my roo got me - bending down to pick up egg, then bending over to pick up feed pail I'd chucked at him....
suggestions?
Ohhh, I think the young 'up & coming' roos are not gonna be impressed!

Thanks for that! That is a very good read that more people should see!!! It is exactly the same approach that is (or should be) taken when raising any animal! Dogs, cats, rabbits, horses, sheep, etc, ...! Dogs are probably the most important animal that everyone can relate too here, and most people do this kind of "tough love" approach already in some form or another. Some people however, should maybe practice it a bit more on those unruly dogs that like to jump up on people when they come to visit!!! I really hate it when that happens!

Temperament (like most things) is under some degree of genetic control. Of course environment and upbringing play a part, but there is absolutely no doubt that, all else being equal, offspring of an agressive mean rooster will be meaner and more agressive than offspring of a calm gentle rooster.

Selection for temperament can be just as effective as selection for many other traits. It's a matter of personal preference whether you think that perfect comb shape (for example) is more important than temperament. Personally, i put temperament pretty high on the list, and keep no meanies.

It's not a question of dominant or recessive genes; very few traits are totally controlled by a single gene.

Thanks for more good food for thought guys.

Soup is usually what I do with meanies myself. Like when my EE roo Sgt. Pepper went rotten (though I don’t believe it was entirely his fault). Up until the fox attack he had the sweetest temperament and looked after his girls wonderfully. I guess the trauma he suffered from being mauled by a fox and not being able to protect his ladies was too much and his entire disposition changed – unfortunately for the worst. I hadn’t hardened myself to doing the deed back then but thankfully had neighbours willing to lend a helping hand after I got tired of being flogged daily...

But no one has attacked me in this case, only tested the waters in a very chickenish way via the wing shuffle dance. This is the first time I’ve had a strictly rooster coop (or more than one rooster bunking together for that matter) and the testosterone level in there must be sky high. I do believe a few breaks are in order, though I never like to see three ganging up on one, but not sure that can be helped at this age. Why does the low man on the totem pole always have to be one of my favorites? Sigh.

Although I am curious how everyone keeping their breeding cocks shacked up together manages to keep the peace? I really hope the answer isn’t rows of single rooster condos.

Good point Chicory. Some genes are more prized than others and alot harder to get. Do you flush all your hard work down the drain at the first signs of stink eye and start over? Or do you try and distill some of the muck out in hopes some of the cream rises to the top? (Thanks samwise )
All was calm and quiet this morning so maybe I’m fretting for nothing…

Np, Dark Wing and dooversue. I wasn’t sure if anyone here had seen this article; glad if it can help. I admit it was fascinating - and made some sense. Dooversue, I would suggest getting a hanging feeder that you can dump the food in from the top. Way less waste too!

I hope everyone will share how their alpha’ing goes.

^ eta: maybe not the best idea...

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No need to apologize Higgins. I appreciate you voicing your honest opinion. And I admit to agreeing with a lot of what you’ve said, though I still do find the article interesting. You bring up a lot of great points however… the wheels are a spinning as they say! And I never once doubted that chickens do not think or feel, that is rubbish because I've seen it/experienced it first hand.

Hmm, I really don’t think I want to be 'king' so much as respected keeper and caretaker of my flocks. Just looking for ideas on how to keep the peace between my boys.

Nor do I think I’ll be taking you up on your dare anytime soon, haha.

I enjoyed that article for a number of reasons...I liked the description of the heirarchy of the flock...the rise to dominance of the Alpha roo, his important role as king. Also interesting to note how quickly he can find himself at the very bottom of the ladder, with even the hens giving him a peck of irritation when they get a chance.
I've observed these things happening in the chicken yard, and I appreciate when people share their observations as that person has done.
However, when it comes to asserting dominance in the chicken yard, I am with those on here that choose not to take a position amongst the roosters. I will not be booting a rooster off of hen when he is mating her...that is the reason I keep roosters. I won't be slapping any of my males around...I feel that is just asking for trouble.
What has worked best for me in all the years of keeping poultry is to keep a low profile amongst the boys. I walk amongst them, feed them, pick them up when I want to and never feel nervous treating an injured comb or spreading their wings or looking them over well. I would never, never allow anyone to taunt them or tease them and I don't try to befriend them as I would a special hen.
I did have one big Orpington rooster that began to exhibit aggressive behaviour, but his days were numbered after that.

One other thing I don't agree with in that article is the assumption that the "wing dance" is aggressive. I've always viewed this little dance as a demonstration to the females. "Look at me dance! don't I look attractive! I'd like to mate with you...
I had one very dear americauna cross rooster that would dance like that for my daughter. she was 14 at the time, and he was her special rooster (Rupert). He did not feel that fences were made for keeping him in, and he would always fly over and wander about the yard as he pleased. Every time she was out in the yard he would be beside her. she would sit under the apple tree with a book, and there he was, dancing away beside her. He never had an aggressive moment with any human. We all loved him, and he enjoyed being around people. It was a sad day when a fox carried him away.


Chicken behavior makes for wonderful reading! Enjoying all the posts on this subject.

I did love the series of a chick fight Tara!!!

Kathy, I find reading stuff about chicken behavior fascinating too. Oh who am I kidding, I find pretty much anything chicken related fascinating. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and especially how you tend your boys and keep order in a simple yet effective way. That is basically what I do myself, though I have made friends and pets out of a few roos in my day. Seems like all my special pet chicks turn out to be boys in the end.

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Flicker Chick I will keep this short but if you are keeping this boy for breeding you need to separate him from the the male/ males that are high on the pecking order as getting beat up and mounted by other males( yes in large groups of cockerels their is generally always one who will be the bitc....) will do nothing for his confidence in the breeding pen, if you are not using him then do him a favour of not being scared and put him in the pot. Just my two cents.(I know yours is not in a large group from your post but this still applies) as there are likely hens that are higher on the pecking order than him.

I didn't read the article but I never put my boys in a position of fighting.

Heather

I read that article last nite and NO I can't seeing you or myself doing this its a baby. Its a animal it has its own standard of living. Or at least I would think survival would be a standard of some sorts. I could very well be wrong but I've had that roos who felt my pressance a challenge but myself and the DH dealt with him in such a way so that pretty so he was ok with me being around his girls

I have never tried the suggestions of how to handle them as chicks when they start sparring. I say let chickens be chickens. For the most part, they seem to work it out. I have no hens that are suffering in any way due to pecking order.

However, in regards to how to handle a rooster......last year when I was brand new to chicken keeping, I had a real nasty but stunningly beautiful large creamy white Easter Egger who came at me every chance he got. I chased him, choked him (gently, as I felt I could easily kill him) and gently tossed him, in an attempt to intimidate him and let him know I was boss, not him. I allowed this behaviour for two months and he was relentless. None of that worked. He ended up in the soup pot. Since then I have talked to a more experienced chicken keeper who advised me to not react at all when a rooster comes at me (assuming it's below the waist and I've got pants and rubber boots on) but just be completely non-reactive and give him the impression you are not interested in challenging him at all. The idea is you are neutralizing the situation. I haven't had an opportunity to do this yet and know that it will take real mindfulness and calmness to NOT turn around and boot the bird in reaction to the surprise nor to let my ego be affected but I am up for it.

I wouldn't consider sparring a trait I would necessarily select against (or for either). However, i definitely would select against and aggression towards humans.

Here is my favorite story of selection for behavior:

I had a friend who raised mice for her snakes. She had beatiful mice, frizzles, satins, pintos, etc. Her mice were also extremely well natured. You could pick one up out of her ginormous aquarium and never worry about being bit. How did she achieve such a feat of mouse-training? Whenever she put her hand into the mice to clean, feed, water, pet, etc, if one bit her she would immediately feed it to a snake! Artificial "natural" selection at work!

Sue

Thanks for the advice Heather. That’s exactly what I spent the day doing. And I’m happy to report Mr. Blue been relocated to a pen in the barn and is already making new friends. The girls had a good time ogling him through the temporary fence (which he really seemed to enjoy, talking back and forth and all that, lol) and the guineas (after screaming bloody murder for what seemed like forever) have finally settled down. I think everything will be ok now.

Also, I’ve decided my backup AM roo (and maybe Brutus too- not sure yet there) have a date with the crock pot. I only hung on to him because I didn’t like the thought of having no backup, but I’ve faced the fact he has major faults (leakage/crooked toes) that I don’t want in my birds anyway. Better to get another rooster if it becomes necessary and more quality stock in general.

“Let chickens be chickens.”

^ I like this and do agree Chicory. Hopefully I won’t have any more situations to defuse any time soon, but I’ll keep that advice in mind if it does happen.

There is definitely a lesson to be learned in that story Sue. Thanks for the insights on behavior everyone.

"The only real mistake is the one from which we learn nothing."